srinisundar
Well-Known Member
Can anybody afford the amp here ? May be costliest / Is it worth for the money ?
Audio Note Japan Kondo Ongaku
Audio Note Japan Kondo Ongaku
costliest tube amp ?
- Thread starter srinisundar
- Start date
bhagwan
Well-Known Member
Gentlemen, if I could make a slight 'change' to where this discussion is heading;;;
Forget the purchase angle.
We need to focus more on 'listening' to them.
After that is achieved, try and find out, what is so special in these amplifier ?
Why do they cost the amount that they do ?
Can we tell the difference in the tone & sonic signature of the different models ?
I was referring to the link :-
HigherFi-Ultimate - The Worlds Best and Most Expensive Audio Amp and Amplifiers
This is the link that Bluu posted.
Few of these amps are in India & 1 pair of the Swiss [Golden] Amplifiers just got installed in New Delhi; So, I am sure a lot of the FM's in New Delhi must have already listened to them. Maybe they could comment.
except for the top 6 models - I may have heard them all - excluding Shoreline / Luminescence / TRL / Soverign / Krell [That Model] / Audio Power Labs;;
I still think that The lars was the BEST ! At least it played superb @ my house with the TAD.
Forget the purchase angle.
We need to focus more on 'listening' to them.
After that is achieved, try and find out, what is so special in these amplifier ?
Why do they cost the amount that they do ?
Can we tell the difference in the tone & sonic signature of the different models ?
I was referring to the link :-
HigherFi-Ultimate - The Worlds Best and Most Expensive Audio Amp and Amplifiers
This is the link that Bluu posted.
Few of these amps are in India & 1 pair of the Swiss [Golden] Amplifiers just got installed in New Delhi; So, I am sure a lot of the FM's in New Delhi must have already listened to them. Maybe they could comment.
except for the top 6 models - I may have heard them all - excluding Shoreline / Luminescence / TRL / Soverign / Krell [That Model] / Audio Power Labs;;
I still think that The lars was the BEST ! At least it played superb @ my house with the TAD.
corElement
Well-Known Member
Wonder if that person is on this forum who bought the golden ones (dartzeel?)
ranjeetrain
New Member
I am sure some people can
God has created a lot of wealthy people on earth 
I have asked AudioNote to create a cheap tube amp for me (and people like me)
which would have AudioNote signature and would be affordable without selling organs 
Is it worth the money? Hmmm, that's the toughest part. For some it is, for the rest it isn't. Such products are created because there is a market for it.
Question: What conclusively separates a super-rich from a common man?
Answer: Big house, luxurious limos, farm houses with a swimming pool, mango orchid, 9 hole golf-course and a super-expensive hifi rig
hyeah:ranjeetrain
New Member
What I believe is (please note I said I believe), USD 20K is enough to create the best of the amplifier that one might need. Any amplifier that costs more than that money, doesn't cost that much necessarily because it is better, but because, it has something unique about them.
People pay that money to buy that exclusiveness.
I believe that one thing that one has to accept is that there is no formula to pricing. The price may not directly reflect a proportion cost of components contained within the equipment or after a certain point even the quality of the components. Pricing is quite individual and I have spoken to a couple of senior deisigners who felt they should also charge for the years of R&D put into creating the piece and various prototypes. Others felt that at this price point they would sell only a certain amount and therefore they had to price it at a certain level to get enough money.
In fact, one of the last pieces that I bought was substantially below retail and I, of course, wanted a clear explanation why.....and the answer was simple. They needed the money to pay salaries. (However, this is of course an exception and not related to published pricing).
I have heard only one of those amps in the list, but of course heard lower models from several companies. There are a few that I can think of that are also missing from that list. I think you get what you pay for by and large. But I am well aware of the camp that does not believe so too.
Amps are the hardest to describe. I would say the best have an ease and power that has to be experienced.
In fact, one of the last pieces that I bought was substantially below retail and I, of course, wanted a clear explanation why.....and the answer was simple. They needed the money to pay salaries. (However, this is of course an exception and not related to published pricing).
I have heard only one of those amps in the list, but of course heard lower models from several companies. There are a few that I can think of that are also missing from that list. I think you get what you pay for by and large. But I am well aware of the camp that does not believe so too.
Amps are the hardest to describe. I would say the best have an ease and power that has to be experienced.
ranjeetrain
New Member
I concur with that pricing aspect. A manufacturer must get back its investment on R&D behind a product. No manufacturer can operate only on BOM.
Unless they happen to be Chinese, who barely invest any money on R&D. They leave the R&D aspect to good folks in California and just focus on ripping the design passing it to their manufacturing plant in Guangdong.
USD 20K is not just BOM. Unless one were to manufacture cabinets made of solid gold. 20K is enough to cover for any R&D effort that has gone into manufacturing a masterpiece which will be produced at mass scale. Scenario would be different for products that are unique (share no design aspect of prior products from same manufacturer/other manufacturer) and will only be made a few units.
However, in my limited experience with respect to ultra high end audio, the price of these products is never in accordance with such guidelines. It just follows a target a manufacturer sets prior to unveiling such a product.
Price matters on price-does-matter creations, where engineers are given the task of building something within xyz dollars, plus minux nn dollars. Then is when pricing is based on BOM and other such factors. Otherwise, it is totally up to manufacturer's whim how a product is priced.
All of above is based on my limited exposure to low-fi, mid-fi, hi-fi and some ultra high end hi-fi on the market.
Unless they happen to be Chinese, who barely invest any money on R&D. They leave the R&D aspect to good folks in California and just focus on ripping the design passing it to their manufacturing plant in Guangdong.
USD 20K is not just BOM. Unless one were to manufacture cabinets made of solid gold. 20K is enough to cover for any R&D effort that has gone into manufacturing a masterpiece which will be produced at mass scale. Scenario would be different for products that are unique (share no design aspect of prior products from same manufacturer/other manufacturer) and will only be made a few units.
However, in my limited experience with respect to ultra high end audio, the price of these products is never in accordance with such guidelines. It just follows a target a manufacturer sets prior to unveiling such a product.
Price matters on price-does-matter creations, where engineers are given the task of building something within xyz dollars, plus minux nn dollars. Then is when pricing is based on BOM and other such factors. Otherwise, it is totally up to manufacturer's whim how a product is priced.
All of above is based on my limited exposure to low-fi, mid-fi, hi-fi and some ultra high end hi-fi on the market.
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+1.
Ease, especially. A sense of relaxation. I would love to cross that rubicon someday.
ranjeetrain
New Member
Dussun V8i (and many other Dussun amps) and Odessey Stratos are two superb examples of why effortless power need not be expensive. Of course, that is not to say they will match the refinement of amps 20x their price from Pass Labs, MBL, Lars.
With price some refinement, some exquisitiveness can be expected, and it does come. But price is not always an indicator of performance, more so when it comes to high end gear.
Without naming a certain brand, some high end gear are merely over-engineered and over priced kits that do not deserve the price they come for.
With price some refinement, some exquisitiveness can be expected, and it does come. But price is not always an indicator of performance, more so when it comes to high end gear.
Without naming a certain brand, some high end gear are merely over-engineered and over priced kits that do not deserve the price they come for.
A dealer I talked to last week had a story of customers who always wanted a system that is much more expensive despite them showing them a capable system already. The system that they had was good enough but wasn't expensive enough to be up there with the best. Every major brand makes a "reference" series or cost no object model for this type of customer.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
There are amplifiers that chase high end goals by pure virtue of great design and great engineering and then there are the ones that pretend to be high end by presenting themselves in over engineered cabinets and looks that mimic spaceships. Like Bhagwan mentioned, only listening to these will expose the real and the pretenders.
We once compared an Indian design in a wooden case to a spaceship model that cost around 5 or 6 lakh at a local designers home. The space ship was already owned by him. The sheer brilliance of the design in the wooden case was such that the spaceship was left panting in the mud.This particular spaceship was in consideration by a member of this forum for a recent upgrade from what I can see from a recent post
We once compared an Indian design in a wooden case to a spaceship model that cost around 5 or 6 lakh at a local designers home. The space ship was already owned by him. The sheer brilliance of the design in the wooden case was such that the spaceship was left panting in the mud.This particular spaceship was in consideration by a member of this forum for a recent upgrade from what I can see from a recent post
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reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
The space ship was a plinius sa-ref iirc . Did not work in that particular setup at all.
However I'd not write it off - there could be very multitude of reasons why it didn't work.
Maybe it didn't gel well with the preamp, maybe it needed more power than the wall socket could provide. Maybe it had some issues with driving that particular speaker. Can't really say!
. Did not work in that particular setup at all. However I'd not write it off - there could be very multitude of reasons why it didn't work.
Maybe it didn't gel well with the preamp, maybe it needed more power than the wall socket could provide. Maybe it had some issues with driving that particular speaker. Can't really say!
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Have heard this amp., driving some difficult loads. Not a slouch IMO. I would also caution that just because an amps. casework is fancy does not mean it can't make music. One has to consider the pedigree of the amp. For instance Plinius has been making high end amps for over 30 years and I would bet they have a lot of knowledge on what sound's good or not. I have heard some so called VFM amps. by new fangled/new world designers and they just couldn't cut it driving demanding loads or complex music, they just gave up. So while I agree that there is a lot of high priced junk around, does not mean that every high priced component with a nice case is fluff while at the same time not every low priced hair shirt design is a gem. Also one has to consider that amps. costs fluctuate due to the strength or lack of it of our Indian rupee and our esteemed custom's/Govt. policies, so a high priced amp. here is not necessarily all that high priced oversea's. Why a does a mercedes C Class cost 35 lakhs on-road here where as it costs $32,000 in US?
And yes BTW I did consider this amp. for my upgrade, but there is no Indian dealer and no way to audition this here unless one flies to Singapore.
Cheers,
Sid
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And btw, cost is relative term - Guess what stereophile reviewer Paul Bolin has to say on the Plinius SA-reference:
"I spend a lot of time reviewing cost-no-object gearthe really expensive stuff. Which makes a component like the Plinius SA-Reference all the more refreshing when I run into one. The SA-Ref may not have the last, endlessly minute degree of palpability or treble resolution that vastly more expensive amplifiers such as the Chord SPM 14000, Halcro dm58, or VTL Siegfried may have, but unless you consistently listen with the finest of speakers in a superbly synergized and optimized system, the difference is meaningless.
The SA-Reference's most winning quality is that it is so acutely close to those multi-megabuck amps in all of the ways that are most meaningful to musical communication. I readily admit that, in terms of the normal world, the SA-Ref is still expensive. But in the modern world of the High End, it is moderately priced for a statement-level product"
He feels that the SA-reference at $15k is a moderately priced product in the High end Hi-FI world.
Cheers,
Sid
"I spend a lot of time reviewing cost-no-object gearthe really expensive stuff. Which makes a component like the Plinius SA-Reference all the more refreshing when I run into one. The SA-Ref may not have the last, endlessly minute degree of palpability or treble resolution that vastly more expensive amplifiers such as the Chord SPM 14000, Halcro dm58, or VTL Siegfried may have, but unless you consistently listen with the finest of speakers in a superbly synergized and optimized system, the difference is meaningless.
The SA-Reference's most winning quality is that it is so acutely close to those multi-megabuck amps in all of the ways that are most meaningful to musical communication. I readily admit that, in terms of the normal world, the SA-Ref is still expensive. But in the modern world of the High End, it is moderately priced for a statement-level product"
He feels that the SA-reference at $15k is a moderately priced product in the High end Hi-FI world.
Cheers,
Sid
ranjeetrain
New Member
Looks can be deceptive. There are some very unpretentious amps. Then there are some that look intimidating but also have a purposeful design. And then there are some that are merely overbuilt. Probably it will be hard for an amp to fetch super money unless it looked like a spaceship. Most of the high end SS amps tend to have this tendency to look intimidating.
ranjeetrain
New Member
I agree with Paul Bolin in that. That's what I said earlier.
In my mind, USD 20k is way more than enough to build any amp of any calibre. Beyond that, the money spent is not necessarily for sound quality. Above that range, most products would be side ways move (regardless of the cost), with some offering some positives, others offering other positives. Regardless of the money spent, no one will be ever able to make an amp that does everything perfectly, and can match in all systems.
Beyond that point, it is more about system synergy rather than perfection.
In my mind, USD 20k is way more than enough to build any amp of any calibre. Beyond that, the money spent is not necessarily for sound quality. Above that range, most products would be side ways move (regardless of the cost), with some offering some positives, others offering other positives. Regardless of the money spent, no one will be ever able to make an amp that does everything perfectly, and can match in all systems.
Beyond that point, it is more about system synergy rather than perfection.
Absolutely Ranjeet. There are too many variables in an amps. environment, like speakers, upstream components, cables, room acoustics, music played, personal prejudices/biases etc. etc. for one to decisively delare a verdict on perfection or Value for that matter.
Cheers,
Sid
And while we are discussing case work, would this be considered a space ship. I have heard this and IMO it is an amazing amp. I would have bought it if I could afford it.
http://www.lammindustries.com/PICS/M1.2/modified/M12_inside.jpg
What about this:
https://passlabs.com/products/amplifiers/xa.5/xa200.5
Cheers,
Sid
http://www.lammindustries.com/PICS/M1.2/modified/M12_inside.jpg
What about this:
https://passlabs.com/products/amplifiers/xa.5/xa200.5
Cheers,
Sid
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