Croft integrated vs Rogue Sphinx

[nandac]

I own both these amps but feel Rogue sq is tighter with better detail.

Cabling is same on both - lava caldera power cord, chord odyssey/chameleon.

But I have the rogue paired with Dali mentor menuets and the Croft with Triangle Titus Espirit.

When I first got the Croft couple of months back I paired it with the Dalis and found the sound harsh - the US dealer told me that the croft probably needed some time to open up.

The Triangles have sensitivity of 89 db and with the Croft volume even at 1, the sound is loud - but still not tight with detail as the Rogue.

So wondering whats happening.

Appreciate the insights.

 

[rwnano]

Pl do share the "weights" in kg of the two amplifiers as well as your observations on the transformers, capacitors inside & heatsinks. Which has MORE ?

 

[reignofchaos]

Amp speaker matching is a dark art. You can decide if an amp matches a speaker only by trying it out.

I have had probably upwards of half a dozen amps at my home to try with my different speakers and I haven't found a way to say if an amp works or not simply from looking at the specs.

 

[Analogous]

I have the Croft integrated since over a year. I have not heard any Rogue Audio amp.
i love the Croft for its tone and musicality (?) It’s very good for long involved listening sessions with little or no fatigue. i Would describe its presentation as warm, with plenty of detail and a satisfying heft. It has excellent timing and projects a soundstage with depth and width.
All this of course depends on the synergy with the speakers. With some speakers Harbeth P3, Klipsch RP600M (toed out parallel) , Graham LS5/9 and Zu DW (toed out, parallel) it sounds fantastic. Not so great with ATC SCM 11, Spendor A5R, and surprisingly with the Tannoy Prestige. I don’t have a clue why.

The Atoll INT 200 (similar topology to the Rogue? 100 WPC) which I had for a while at the same time, I experienced even more detail, but did not like it much. I found it shrill and fatiguing (same tracks, source). I may be mistaken but the tube preamp stage in the Croft brings a lovely lush sound character while the SS power stage (45 WPC) drives most speakers comfortably.

In the end your choice (if you must keep one only) would depend on your personal preferences of how you like the sound presented. As @reignofchaos has highlighted above trying out with different speakers in your room is the final discovery. I would hesitate to call it an art. It’s more like a gamble and an expensive one at that. They each sound different and often it’s difficult to decide which one is better. I realise this is not helpful but it did take a lot of listening to understand/realise with which pairing I enjoyed my music more.

And yes, it did take about 70-100 hours or so to “break in” (my ears-brain getting adjusted or the electronics settling, in I know not)
I also swapped the stock tube for a Tesla NOS. But as Tube rolling takes time my memory of the sound is short I could not make any conclusions.

The Croft integrated is a lovely little amplifier for a small or medium sized room in my opinion.

 

[arj]

I own both these amps but feel Rogue sq is tighter with better detail.

Cabling is same on both - lava caldera power cord, chord odyssey/chameleon.

But I have the rogue paired with Dali mentor menuets and the Croft with Triangle Titus Espirit.

When I first got the Croft couple of months back I paired it with the Dalis and found the sound harsh - the US dealer told me that the croft probably needed some time to open up.

The Triangles have sensitivity of 89 db and with the Croft volume even at 1, the sound is loud - but still not tight with detail as the Rogue.

So wondering whats happening.

Appreciate the insights.

What source do you use ?

I am also a bit confusedI have heard both and both are not Harsh amps. The croft is a Hybrid Mosfet designs and FM prem has run the R version with JBL and FM analogous with Zu both of these speakers in there own way are very truthful and having heard both not the least harsh and very resolving. the Dalis are quite forgiving speakers themselves.

Pl do share the "weights" in kg of the two amplifiers as well as your observations on the transformers, capacitors inside & heatsinks. Which has MORE ?

A tube amp will always be heavy due to the output transfromer and a Class A due to heatsinks..what will that prove ?

I am assuming you are not planning to evaluate an amp based on weight

 

[Analogous]

I am assuming you are not planning to evaluate an amp based on weight

The Croft is quite lightweight. Haven’t measured it but would guesstimate as @5 kg or less

 

[nandac]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Shinto]

I had the opportunity to compare Croft Integrated R with a friend's Rogue Cronus Magnum III at his place.Speakers were the latest version Harbeth c7 .We both agreed Rogue was better but Croft was up there very close to it.

 

[arj]

I had the opportunity to compare Croft Integrated R with a friend's Rogue Cronus Magnum III at his place.Speakers were the latest version Harbeth c7 .We both agreed Rogue was better but Croft was up there very close to it.

yes both are good and the Croft becomes even better with better tubes. the best fit is a Tesla which elevates it even more.

 

[jai1611]

You are driving low impedance, relatively low efficiency speakers. These may not be the match for a relatively low power amp like the Croft. While the BBC type speakers that the Croft matches well with are also low efficiency, those have a benign impedance load. Thats what makes them an easy load for the Croft.

 

[Shinto]

yes both are good and the Croft becomes even better with better tubes. the best fit is a Tesla which elevates it even more.

The above comparison was with Tesla's in it.

 

[rwnano]

What source do you use ?

I am also a bit confusedI have heard both and both are not Harsh amps. The croft is a Hybrid Mosfet designs and FM prem has run the R version with JBL and FM analogous with Zu both of these speakers in there own way are very truthful and having heard both not the least harsh and very resolving. the Dalis are quite forgiving speakers themselves.


A tube amp will always be heavy due to the output transfromer and a Class A due to heatsinks..what will that prove ?

I am assuming you are not planning to evaluate an amp based on weight

I was looking at doing JUST that. Weight of transformer and capacitor and heatsink implies better current capability which implies better ability to transmit all variation in sounds..as per my understanding.

 

[reignofchaos]

I was looking at doing JUST that. Weight of transformer and capacitor and heatsink implies better current capability which implies better ability to transmit all variation in sounds..as per my understanding.

Then what about Class D amps? One of the best drive I have heard of any amp is the NAD m33 with purify modules. It weighs just 8 odd kg for amp, preamp, dac, streamer. Most of that weight is just the beautiful chassis.

 

[arj]

I was looking at doing JUST that. Weight of transformer and capacitor and heatsink implies better current capability which implies better ability to transmit all variation in sounds..as per my understanding.

I guessed so and this is a very old theory from a time where tube topologies were similiar, there we did not have much SS and heavier amp meant better transformers.

Not relevant for today ..as an example an badly designed tube amp will be heavier than a very well designed solid state and obviously sound bad.