Excellent Bass without Subwoofer.

[Subcenter2009]

Dear friends,
It can be a tough task to integrate your subwoofer to your home theater system. One may be tempted to turn up the volume on the subwoofer to get heavy bass. This results sometimes in booming and loss or gain in some frequencies as the Front L/R speakers compete with the sub to produce good bass at the same time. It is tough for the Front L/R speakers to fire in Phase with your existing subwoofer. I propose an excellent solution..

Enter: Party speakers that are capable of strong bass.
This method eliminates the need for a subwoofer..thus removing the need for Bass setup as the L/R woofers will always be in phase. Ideally, the input wattage of the L/R should be over 150 watts RMS. So they can play loud without distortion.
Some makers of Party loudspeakers are
Cerwin vega, JBL and Wharfedale Zaldek, Wharfedale Xarus etc.
These should ideally be big towers with Kevlar or Polypropylene woofers.
They should be rated as to go down to 25-30 Hertz.
You don't have to spend a lot of money on a good sub.. The bass will always be in phase.

One good thing is that heavy Bass capable party speakers are usually cheaper than audiophile grade speakers that are much more expensive.

So consider investing in a pair of good party speakers that are very bass capable, save a lot of money without the sub and get clean MEGA BASS.:yahoo::clapping:hyeah:
Yours,
Subcenter2009

 

[Subcenter2009]

Please disable the Subwoofer in AVR settings and set Front L/Rs as large. Set all other speaker settings as small.
Get ready to taste the CLEAN BASS with your new, not so costly party speakers.

Note: Many makers of the so called party speakers have matching centers and surrounds also.
Not to mention matching party subwoofers... But the whole point of this article is to achieve strong bass without the need for a costly subwoofer, thus, saving you a lot of precious money.
Enjoy,
Subcenter2009

 

[Subcenter2009]

The type of party speaker i recommend should be of HI-FI type and not Professional or Public address or discotheque speakers. Those are in a different league altogether and cannot be compared to Hi Fidelity speakers..As they are much more powerful and require massive amplifiers and obviously cannot be used at home.
Enjoy,
Let me know your experiences,
Subcenter2009:clapping::yahoo:

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

The type of party speaker i recommend should be of HI-FI type and not Professional or Public address or discotheque speakers. Those are in a different league altogether and cannot be compared to Hi Fidelity speakers..As they are much more powerful and require massive amplifiers and obviously cannot be used at home.
Enjoy,
Let me know your experiences,
Subcenter2009:clapping::yahoo:

Professional speakers can't be used at home?

Right...

You should not put too much faith in published specifications, most "PA" speakers will not produce much "bass" below 60-80Hz. It sounds like your interest is in the midbass with a sloping LF for a "tight" sound or perhaps the levels required are limited.

Regardless just because the "bass" as you put it comes from the speakers itself does not guarantee that it's native phase response is smooth, nor will the phase response at LP be necessarily smooth. Humans in general have difficulty making out issues in the phase response, they may perceive the differences in an A/B, in the frequencies below 100Hz they are less sensitive.

"PA" speakers in general, once you get to a certain level of engineering, are better than Home Audio speakers in every regard, however they usually are not "voiced" as much, they also tend to have narrow dispersion and a habit of accentuated HF, apart from the native dispersion most issues can be solved with DSP. There are "PA" speakers with wider dispersion as well.

 

[Subcenter2009]

Dear friends,
I have a Wharfedale SW 150 subwoofer.
What I write here is solely from experience..
I am using Wharfedale Zaldek S 2000 for my Front L/R speakers.
and a Zaldek center for the center channel.
Zaldeks are termed as Party Speakers as explained below
A few months back, My SW150 sub broke down.
I had adjusted the subwoofer's distance while playing back Bass notes on both Front L/R and the sub using my Alan Parsons sound check 2 calibration CD and SPL meter till the Bass Peaked.
When, My sub broke down, I thought I may not get much bass from the front speakers
but when I disabled the subwoofer option in the AVR, and changed Front L/R setting to large, I was surprised.
The Wharfedale Zaldeks are no PA speaker.
They are termed as HI FI party speakers.
They have a Horn Midrange, Horn Tweeter and 2 8inch Polypropylene blue color lightweight woofers.
They are rated at 250Watts RMS input power.
They are good for Heavy Metal, Dance music and Movies. I am saying this from experience.
I paid Rs. 15000 for a pair.
They are designed to play loud without distorting.
So, I found that the Bass was really smooth and I have to tell you that the Sub bass was not lacking in any way.
So, I found that I don't really need a big subwoofer to get appreciable sub bass.
The 10" SW150 only marginally boosted the sub bass.
Yes, I could 'feel the bass".
Again I clarify that by Party Speaker, I don't mean PA speaker. Please don't get me wrong on this.. Hope this clears the cobwebs..
Yours,
Subcenter2009

 

[Amitkg]

Which AVR or Amp do you use to power up ZALDEKS?

Sent from my MI MAX using Tapatalk

 

[Subcenter2009]

Which AVR or Amp do you use to power up ZALDEKS?

Sent from my MI MAX using Tapatalk

Hi Amit,
I have a Vintage Yamaha Rx-V 450 6.1 AVR
Now 10 years old.
Must be lasting so long because I use 2kva Maxine servo stabiliser.
The build quality of my AVR is not to be found nowadays.
Still going strong.
Subcenter2009.:clapping::yahoo:

 

[Amitkg]

Just googled, found that Wharfdale no longer produces ZALDEKS.

Sent from my MI MAX using Tapatalk

 

[Subcenter2009]

Just googled, found that Wharfdale no longer produces ZALDEKS.

Sent from my MI MAX using Tapatalk

Yes, That's unfortunately true. How sad..
But there loads of similar imported "party speakers" in the market.
as I said earlier, Cerwin Vega and JBL and many
other companies make party speakers intended to be played loud.
Consult your friendly neighborhood Home Theater sales guy to weigh all the plenty of choices of Party speakers in the market. Go on a voyage of discovery one weekend when you are free. There is no limit to the knowledge to be gained for the true audiophile in this short life...Maybe except WAF!!!hyeah:

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

You do know there is no such thing as "Hi-Fi party speaker" right? Speakers such as the Wharfedale you mention, Cerwin Vega and many others are often termed "DJ Speakers", in essence they tend to be "PA" speaker style designs with more color added with more thought given to aesthetics and form in a "blingy" manner, they also often have lights integrated with them. They can at times be voiced like home audio speakers but their design is still rooted in pro audio.

That said they are often good value, they can sound good and go louder than most home audio speakers at any price, many times such speakers are a gateway for users of home audio to enter the pro world. Many of them can be "warm" sounding despite their appearance.

I should mention again that while you may perceive sub bass, dual 8" drivers are not capable of much bass, I reckon you like the mid bass as mentioned in combination with a strong midrange, the porting may be augmenting the 50-70Hz range somewhat giving you that impression. Buy a mic and measure if your curious.

 

[Audiodoc]

Anything below 30 hz is very difficult to produce with small cone sizes. One needs to move a lot of air. To do that you either need multiple stiff cones with lots of excursion or one large cone 16 to 18 inch large voice coil and multiple tesla magnet and a lot of rms power to drive it. Say a 1000 to 2000w class D amplifier with lots of current. Closed cabinets usually produce a tighter bass but a well designed ported one will help if any of the above is missing. All the above needs a lot of technology and money to build.

 

[music4mhell]

Yes, That's unfortunately true. How sad..
But there loads of similar imported "party speakers" in the market.
as I said earlier, Cerwin Vega and JBL and many
other companies make party speakers intended to be played loud.
Consult your friendly neighborhood Home Theater sales guy to weigh all the plenty of choices of Party speakers in the market. Go on a voyage of discovery one weekend when you are free. There is no limit to the knowledge to be gained for the true audiophile in this short life...Maybe except WAF!!!hyeah:

LD speakers are also good value for money.

 

[Subcenter2009]

Hi,
What about vintage towers with say 12 inch woofers from the late 70s, 80s and early 90s?
Many HiFi companies from around the world used to make these huge towers with big woofers..
Can these elderly behemoths do the job of a subwoofer?
Surely, the woofer is big enough?
I am talking about HIFi before Subwoofers became common...
In my younger days, such towers used to literally rock the house and the neighbors house as well.
There were 1000s of Hi end audio companies making what were known as "Rack Systems". I can't single out any favourite.
So, If you need a large woofer, then those vintage speaker towers should be able to produce deep bass am I right?
Those days, we used to say that such towers had " Punch".
Share your Gyaan, folks...
Yours,
Subcenter2009

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

Some vintage systems had larger drivers, but they typically lacked extension in the response (deep bass) they did provide good sensitivity and in horn loaded or ported cabinets produced excellent output and "punch". Modern drivers tend to be larger and also have more excursion, this leads them to have more displacement which aids them in regards to low bass output. Another point is how you define "low bass", in the old days 40-50Hz was very low, today even in the pro audio realm extension for subs in the 30-40Hz range is common, some reaching 25Hz. It depends how low you want to go but for most dance,rock,metal etc, extension below 40Hz is not required.

If you do seek "low bass" or "sub bass" you require (depending upon levels needed) 1-X 18/21/24" drivers with at least 30mm of excursion and at least 1500-2000W of continous power handling and 4000W on peaks (or more), there is more but I am attempting to keep it as simple as I can. You can do so with smaller drivers but you will need a lot more of them, the basic fundamental rule here is air displacement which comes from excursion and surface area.

 

[Subcenter2009]

Thanks, dear Decadent Spectre..
You clearly know the subject.
It is enjoyable to read your posts.
Are you in based in Chennai?

 

[Subcenter2009]

How does one manage to keep a 24 inch subwoofer in the house? Without attracting attention from among other folks, the Cops and possibly the Psychiatrist?
What I mean is, PA and Large DJ speakers and Pro audio subwoofers cant possibly be used in the Home, right?
New thought for discussion: Do we really need to get 18 Hz at home? Can't we be content with 40 to 50 watt Lower extension? Isn't that enought to rock the boat or for most movies?
Subcenter2009

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

IMO 40Hz is fine for music, unless you listen to pipe organs or dubstep etc.

For movies/dubstep I think for most people 25-28Hz is a good range, this is easier to do when the SPL levels required are not very high. In general I believe the range below 25Hz is not very relevant for any content and is only worth chasing if you have the extra resources, there are those on the internet who salivate over the extreme low end, simply because it is hard to do and is used as a yardstick for sub system "superiority".

If you must have proper pipe organ music, you need 16Hz but most people who seek such music are less interested in extreme SPL and more so in dynamic capability, usually their SPL desires top off at about 110-115db which is much easier to accomplish.

I have been using pro audio based equipment for about a decade, it is possible to use them if you have the space and are not sensitive to "black boxes", it might be possible to get some pro audio designs with well finished veneers but the costs will be significantly higher. There are limitations and in the end, even a large pretty box is still a large box, for most the issues that may arise due to it is not worth the hassle.

At some point you must ask how much is good sound and SPL worth to you, not just in money but also the size,aesthetics,living and social aspects. This includes the wife.

If you have specific questions for me, feel free to PM me.

I am not in Chennai.

 

[krell]

Excellent bass without subwoofer,may be yes,if your main speakers is capable to go low without any distorsion,
i am using main speakers with 15" drivers(JBL L300),never needed any sub to suppor the lows. but oneday i connected the JLaudio E112 sub to my main setup, it filling the room beautifully, i ketp it till date.

 

[ItsMe]

I tried to integrate small party speakers in my HT, but failed miserably as party speakers were throwing in loud boomy bass, which was not tolerable in a closed HT. The problem with the speakers I used was it will start producing bass only above a decent volume level, which makes it more and more boomy for a movie experience.
Had to remove them from HT in an hour...

 

[rpanand25]

Are these speakers new? If so give them sometime to break in and see if sound changes.