Leap to high-end turntables

[kratu]

I have been meaning to start a conversation with experts here on all things turntables.

There is no denying that vinyl is so natural, organic and subjectively it connects to the heart and soul of music. So, I plan to go full steam on this and leap ahead directly to high-end stage.

I currently own a Pioneer PL12 since a decade and small but growing collection of records. It is to be noted that I take it very slowly and I have all the time in the world to explore. In fact, I have been sitting on this for ages and doing my research.

This thread is for those who are past the beginner level and are convinced of taking the leap.

Let’s split this into two categories, one is vintage and another is modern. With the former, I wanted to know your favourites ordered in sequence of priority.

I hear mostly
Garrrad 301/401
EMT 938
Linn Sondek LP12
Technical SP10
Thorens 124
Leno L75

These are from vintage.

And what is that you pick from the modern ones. These are frankly intimidating and uber expensive.

I like the Technics 1300G. Any thoughts on the modern ones? I also hear good things about Dr Feickert, VPI brand of turntables.

Tagging @reubensm

 

[reubensm]

Nice to know that you are looking forward to a more Indepth experience with records and turntables. You already have a great start as the Pioneer PL12 is a nice turntable too.

Your turntable categorization if really spot-on (vintage vs modern) but there is another categorization which is also relevant, namely the drive-types (idler vs belt vs direct drive). For anyone aspiring to take the dive into deeper waters, this categorization is also a very important factor.

So let's divide the turntables that you have mentioned into these 4 categories:

1. Idler turntables - Garrard 301, Garrard 401, Lenco L75
2. Belt drive - Linn LP12
3. Direct Drive - Technics SP10, EMT 938
4. Belt-Idler - There is also another sub-category known as Belt-Idler turntable into which the Thorens TD124 fits. This is a drive methodology which is a hybrid of belt and idler drive designs.

Let me add some more of the big vintage legends to your list:

1. Idler turntables - EMT 927, EMT 930, Garrard 301, Garrard 401, Lenco L75, Lenco L78, Lenco L88 (considered to be Lenco's version of the Garrard 301), Garrard 4HF (for hi-fi mono)
2. Belt drive - Linn LP12, Thorens TD125, Thorens TD160, AR XA (AR XA is considered to be the simplest, cheapest and the most legendary of the lot, similar to the NAD 3020 in the integrated amplifier space)
3. Direct Drive - EMT 950, EMT 948, EMT 938, Kenwood-Trio L-07D, Sony PS-X9, Nakamichi Dragon CT, Technics SP10 MK2, Technics SP10 MK1, Technics SP15, Technics SP25, Technics SP20, Technics SL1200/1210 (especially the Mk2), Pioneer Exclusive P3, Yamaha GT2000 (+ there are other DD turntables in this category from the likes of Pioneer, JVC, Denon and Sony)
4. Belt-Idler - Thorens TD124, Thorens TD135, Thorens TD121 (single speed version of the TD124), Kenwood-Trio PC 400U and Kenwood-Trio 400M (which is the broadcast version of the PC400U)

There are a few rules when going down the vintage route:

1. Budget - they are generally expensive and have to be imported, however you may get luck and come across someone in India who has already done all the hard work and can supply you with one which you can just pay and buy without worrying about all the headaches of importing
2. Plug and Play vs Customization - some of these decks have everything, just plug them in and play whereas come would require a custom plinth, a tonearm and cartridge, etc. It is always very simple to get one with everything included vs having to run around buying and building things (if you have the DIY flavors, then running around can actually be an advantage)
3. Condition - Most of the ones generally available in India are discards. So the truth is, you cannot get audiophile grade quality out of a vintage deck which is purchased, unless someone is letting go of a perfectly restored pristine turntable, due to upgrading. Mostly, you will have to get it professionally restored which can cost more than the deck itself. Hence when buying, always factor in the restoration part of it as well. Most high end decks like Garrard 301 found in India are just old stock decks that have been subject to some cleaning and lubrication. To get better results, a Garrard should be serviced by the likes of the Classic Turntable Company (they turn the deck into a new one running at factory specs). They upgrade certain parts, replace certain parts, calibrate spring tensions, etc which enhances the performance.
4. Maintenance - Direct drive turntables require the least maintenance. You may have to re-cap them every 15 odd years. Belt drive turntables in Indian climatic conditions would need replacement belts between 5-10 years depending on the part of the country you live in. Idler turntables on the other hand require regular maintenance to keep them running noise free. Apart from all of this, regular lubricating (about once in 5 years) is required for all types of turntables as they have mechanical parts after all.
5. Availability - depends on a lot of luck, it you have access to markets abroad, that's always the best (especially in Europe). Depending on the type of deck, one should be cautious when buying from the US or Japan as some decks have mains voltage and frequency dependencies so simply using a 230v to 110v or 100v stepdown won't work

If you have control over these 5 aspects, then vintage is the route to go. If you try to find the same level of quality and engineering of vintage turntables in the modern ones, you will have only few options to go by at exorbitant prices.

The choice of model and make is the user's prerogative. If you check online, everyone has their own preferences and opinions, so as a buyer, you too should have your own and go by it. Evaluate all the factors by reading as much as possible and thereafter decide.

Many of the classic turntable manufacturers like Garrard, Thorens, Technics, Denon, etc have returned with modern versions of their classic vintage turntables mentioned above. However most of these are exorbitantly priced and out of the reach of the average enthusiast. The new releases of the Garrard 301, Technics SP10 and Thorens TD124 are examples. An Indian like you or me can buy a home or a few cars with the amount of money one has to pay for these.

But....

If you are looking for a modern (brand new) turntable with vintage build quality and sound characteristics, then Technics is the way to go. They have brought back the classic SL1200 and SL1300 in new avatars which are really superb and perhaps even better than their vintage ancestors. The brilliant strategy of Technics has also helped, they have different versions of the same models so depending on your budget, you can buy different versions of the SL1200 or 1300. This could be the best and easiest path to pursue. From my personal experience, with a Technics (vintage in good condition or modern new turntable), you can never go wrong.

There is another chapter altogether about cartridges and phono stages but first decide on the path with the turntable. If you choose a turntable version without a tonearm, then that is also another consideration which you will have to get into.

Wish you all the very best!

Regards.

 

[anilva]

Good summary Reuben. From the modern lot, I would suggest Technics SL1200G. Terrific turntable and will last more than a decade. Very little maintenance is required.

 

[reignofchaos]

I don't like DDs personally. I find them sterile sounding due to the constant speed corrections going on. However many don't have that issue.

If I were you, I would look at the following:

EBI Audio - fantastic made in india equipment. I use their tonearm and it is better than my Thomas Schick which has been relegated to the back slot.

Dr Feickert - Woodpecker with a decent arm. Firebird if you have a lot to spend

Nottingham Analogue - space deck, hyperspace or anna log

Brinkmann Balance or higher (very expensive)

Linn Sondek LP12 - not the entry level ones - again very expensive

Older idlers like 301/401 or EMT 927/930 are fantastic if you can source a restored one.

 

[arj]

Wonderful post by @reubensm

I would add the Micro seiki SX and DX series , the SX 3000, 5000 and 8000 being more premium to the list of Belt drives on the same lines Goldmund reference is another legend. Thorens have the Uber expensive prestige and Reference both mammoth and not made any more. Nakamichi Dragon 1000 is another which often is talked about in the same vein ( perhaps some hype there)

On DD the Japanese, adding to what has been said before would be by Denon ( P3), Luxman ( 444/555) , Pioneeer exclusive ( P3) etc etc are all excellent and legendary in their own right but the core of these were all made by Microseiki. Even Sony had a High end offering here

Not in touch with Modern but Scheu 's turntables are pretty good considering they were OEMs to german TTs in the past.

On Idler the Commonwealth 12D is an australian legend but rare and comes up on forums.

The Vintage knob is a treasure house of some of these http://www.thevintageknob.org/index.php

 

[square_wave]

I don't like DDs personally. I find them sterile sounding due to the constant speed corrections going on. However many don't have that issue.

Is this an observation only at the really high end levels ? I see mostly belt driven tables at the high and super high end levels. I guess at those levels, with the considerable outlay on hand, they are able to banish any cons of belt drives and just take the pros to a different level.

From what I have heard so far ( mostly from conversations at shows, dealers and seasoned users ), at low to mid end table levels, the sound is more of a personal taste with both having their own pros and cons.

At mid end levels for DD, technics is a favourite of many.

I am new to turntables having discarding it in my early 20's and then taking it up again after 20 years so I may be mistaken.

 

[reignofchaos]

I have a problem with technics. I hear the speed correction all the time. I haven't heard an EMT direct drive extensively. I am not sure if that has the same issue. However all the DDs from usual suspects - Technics, Pioneer, Denon etc suffer from this. If you don't hear the problem and the associated lack of harmonics/emotional connect, great for you!

 

[kratu]

Thanks @reubensm for the detailed information.

From what I can assimilate, the vintage route is a perilous journey fraught with many risks. One might need patience and fair amount of luck to get to that dream turntable. It goes without saying that money has to be spilled.

The modern route appears more accessible and we don’t need to wait for all the stars to align.

Going ahead with the decision making process, you have sensibly pointed out the consideration of belt drive / direct drive. This is one of the important factors. There is no doubt that audio purists prefer the former over the latter. Belt driven turntables outnumber them and with greater performance.

Do you think modern technological advancements have reduced, if not, completely removed the drawbacks of direct drive turntables, i,e; vibration?

And as @reignofchaos mentioned, some do not find the direct drives appeal to the main reason why they chose vinyl.

There is only one brand which stands tall, Technics. EMT has introduced their new iteration of the turntable.

 

[essrand]

I have a problem with technics. I hear the speed correction all the time. I haven't heard an EMT direct drive extensively. I am not sure if that has the same issue. However all the DDs from usual suspects - Technics, Pioneer, Denon etc suffer from this. If you don't hear the problem and the associated lack of harmonics/emotional connect, great for you!

There's a possibility that might be confirmation bias. Do try the famous Michael Fremer video on Continuum Caliburn vs 1200G circa 2017, most listeners couldn't distinguish between a 100K belt-drive and and the 4K Technics ....

See WBF, lots of folks batting for the 1200G as an SOTA under 20k, especially Ralph of Atmasphere. Audiogon is a good resource for learning more about the 1200G. Some work needs to be done to get 1200G sounding at its best, but that's true with all analog.

I know very little about analog, am self-confessed amateur, so others might be right. Maybe DD does sound sterile, but I strongly suspect that's just one of audiophile lore that is so often repeated that it becomes true, just like people saying silver cables sound bright or 300b tubes are not extended etc etc etc. In audio it's all about implementation, not just the tech or the materials, there are many roads to Rome.

Do your own research. Some real audiophile heavyweights who can buy anything, own DD tables.

 

[reignofchaos]

There's a possibility that might be confirmation bias. Do try the famous Michael Fremer video on Continuum Caliburn vs 1200G circa 2017, most listeners couldn't distinguish between a 100K belt-drive and and the 4K Technics ....


I know very little about analog, am self-confessed amateur, so others might be right. Maybe DD does sound sterile, but I strongly suspect that's just one of audiophile lore that is so often repeated that it becomes true, just like people saying silver cables sound bright or 300b tubes are not extended etc etc etc. In audio it's all about implementation, not just the tech or the materials, there are many roads to Rome.

Do your own research. Some real audiophile heavyweights who can buy anything, own DD tables.

Owned an SL1200 MK5. I had my old SL-B2 belt drive too. I was very impressed by this one and decided that I should get the then flagship of Technics. This new SL1200 TT lasted all of 7 days at my place before it was packed up and sent back. The comparison wasn't even with some expensive belt drive. It was with an old vintage belt drive from the same company which sounded miles better.

As I said - if you don't hear it, fantastic! Go ahead and buy DDs. But I will never ever get one again.

Funny anecdote - after this I got a clearaudio concept that served me well for over 10 years. When I sold it, guess what TT it replaced at the buyer's place? Another SL1200 .

 

[essrand]

Owned an SL1200 MK5. I had my old SL-B2 belt drive too. I was very impressed by this one and decided that I should get the then flagship of Technics. This new SL1200 TT lasted all of 7 days at my place before it was packed up and sent back. The comparison wasn't even with some expensive belt drive. It was with an old vintage belt drive from the same company which sounded miles better.

As I said - if you don't hear it, fantastic! Go ahead and buy DDs. But I will never ever get one again.

Funny anecdote - after this I got a clearaudio concept that served me well for over 10 years. When I sold it, guess what TT it replaced at the buyer's place? Another SL1200 .

Was it a SL1200G? The reason I ask is that the G series is a completely different animal, though superficially looks the same as the other Technics TTs but it's leagues apart and supposedly a technological tour-de-force, then again I have not as much experience with TTs as you do, my first was a Clearaudio Concept, then a Rega RP6, then a SL1200GAE, at different points in my 10 year journey, and never compared any of them. Nor did I play them a lot or tinker to make any conclusions.

Hard to compare TTs, since the arm, the phono, the cartridge all play a part, how can you then say it's the TT and the drive mechanism of the TT, unless you use the same arm and cart. I didn't bother, I enjoyed all of them, I have no lessons to learn or impart.

 

[reignofchaos]

Was it a SL1200G?

Nope - this was in 2011-2012. It was the original sl1200 mk5. I have never had the opportunity to hear their newer range.