Legend Killers - Turntables

reubensm

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I receive many queries from our forum members asking about 'substitutes'. With the resurgence of records and record playing equipment and thanks to the internet, the cost of entry into this field, has skyrocketed and if one aspires to invest in higher end gear or legends, the budgets have to be 'astronomical' by Indian standards. Request forum members to share their thoughts on some great turntables that can be considered in place of the big ones from Garrard, Technics, Thorens, EMT, etc. Users in this segment are generally looking for options within budgets but have expectations for moderate to high performance. This aspect can provide some valuable advise for those who are looking for a second or back-up turntable as well.
 
to start with, here are some equivalents:

Garrard 301 vs Lenco GL 88
Garrard 401 vs Lenco GL 99

Both Lenco decks are rare (and some believe its easier to just take a L75 and customize, than to find one of these) but they do come up once in a while on eBay in good condition but with price tags significantly lower than the Garrards. There are many articles available online comparing these Lenco decks to the Garrards with some praising their simplicity and more importantly, sound signature. They offer greater customization opportunities as well for those who will to do so.

Lenco 88-1.jpegLenco 99.jpg
 
Reubensm that is a really great initiative which will help people like me.

Waiting for other experts suggestions for this post.
 
Linn Sondek LP12 is one of the legendary turntables of all time, and obviously comes with a heavy price tag (especially if retro fitted with a Valhalla power supply and high quality Linn tonearm). Even if one is ready with deep pockets, finding one in good condition is a headache (owners almost never sell) and the deck requires highly sensitive calibration for absolute performance. So what could be a value buy if looking to enjoy the benefits without a hole in the pocket?

Linn Sondek LP12 vs Ariston RD11

The Ariston allegedly and controversially sports the same design as the LP12 (the history between these two is often considered as controversial as the question - which came first, the chicken or the egg?). The Ariston RD11 usually appears quite often in online sales and if often ignored as not too many have heard of it. Prices range between 1/4 to 1/2 of the cost of the LP12 generally and again, if calibrated properly should sound good.

Here is an interesting article which I came across.

Visual comparison - Linn Sondek (left) vs Ariston RD11 (right)


LP12-1.jpgA11.jpg

LP12-2.jpgA11-3.jpg

Linn LP12 underside.jpgA11-bottom.jpg
Note: these are random pictures hence cosmetic condition may vary

Some more random pictures of the RD11

a1.jpga5.jpg
a6.jpga7.jpg
a8.jpg
a9.jpg

Disclaimer: I received a WhatsApp feedback message suggesting that these posts may undermine the value of the expensive decks. In my opinion, that is not really the intent and not really the case. Legends are legends and will remain legends. But not all can afford or source legends. However, at the same time, why not look to own something very close to a legend? Thanks for the feedback anyways.
 
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Wonderful thread Reuben !
There is the eMT 938 and Thorens 524 but then neither is too cheap !
 
Heybrook TT2 was also a competitor to the Sondek. It was well-built and didn't suffer from the fidgety spring suspension issue of the LP12 that needed periodic calibration.

PS: I would argue that one must seek out Lenco L75 instead of the unobtainium GL 88/99. A properly tweaked L75 plays on par as any of the more famous and prestigious idlers, and is therefore the true "legend killer".
 
Having played around with the L75 for a bit, it sounds really nice in stock condition (even with its original tonearm provided the v-blocks are replaced and the tonearm is rewired) when mounted in a multilayered plinth (i used upto 5 layers of 1-inch ply). The demerit of the L75 is that to get it to excel, it has to be rebuilt literally so good DIY skills are required with access to a good workshop or one has to buy expensive parts from abroad. But for those who are really in to idler turntables, the sound and performance of Lenco L75 just seems to be so very enjoyable.

Actually on the topic of Lenco L75s, they came in many versions, Swiss-made, German-made, some made by Goldring, etc. One question I have received in the past on the L75 is about an alternative to the L75. Initially the L75 was easily available but since the resurgence of records and idler drive turntables, the L75 has become a much sort after deck and hence is difficult to find.

Unknown to many (and perhaps intentionally overlooked) is that the Lenco L78 is an upgraded version of the L75. So if you cannot find a good example of the L75, investing in a L78 could be an option (although prices may be in the same range, with the L78 just a little less expensive perhaps).

Visual comparison - Lenco L75 (left) vs Lenco L78 (right)

Lenco L75.jpgLenco L78.jpg

BLOGThe Lenco L75 H.jpgL78 inside.jpg

L75 underside.jpgL78 underside.jpg
Note: These are stock pictures hence cosmetic condition may vary.

How different is the L78?
  • The L78 tonearm auto-returns after playing a record, so its a semi automatic vs the manual L75 (this mech can be removed while customizing)
  • Suspended hydraulic dampened springs on the L78 versus plain springs in the L75 (again not very relevant when mounting on a multilayered plinth)
  • The design and look of the platter mat is different in the L78, I have read somewhere that this in an upgrade
  • Redesigned perforated head-shell on the L78, thereby reducing head-shell mass, making it lighter (not relevant if you plan to replace the stock tonearm)
  • The position of the on/off switch has been moved slightly on the L78, where as on the L75 it is literally just below the stylus and hence the danger of touching the stylus (of the stock tonearm) while operating
  • The coupling between the tonearm counterweight shaft and the rest of the tonearm on the L78 has been improved and made more rigid when compared to the L75 which had a decoupled counterweight shaft, which tended to sag after a while. (again, not relevant if you plan to replace the stock tonearm)
 
Heybrook TT2 was also a competitor to the Sondek. It was well-built and didn't suffer from the fidgety spring suspension issue of the LP12 that needed periodic calibration.

PS: I would argue that one must seek out Lenco L75 instead of the unobtainium GL 88/99. A properly tweaked L75 plays on par as any of the more famous and prestigious idlers, and is therefore the true "legend killer".
Some stock pictures of the Heybrook TT2 for reference. What a beauty!

Heybrook TT2-1.jpgHeyBrook TT2-2.jpg

Heybrook TT2-3.jpgHeyBrook TT2-4.jpg
 
Thorens TD125 Mk1/Mk2 vs ERA 6066

Two series of the Thorens 125 were made by EMT in Lahr, Germany (i think), the MK I and MK II. Following the legendary TD 124 (with the interlude of the less expensive and commercial mass-market model TD 160), the TD 125 was billed as the next "state of the art" turntable and well and truly lived up to its reputation after its launch in 1968. There was a version with stock Thorens tonearm and another with a tonearm board (user could decide which tonearm to use). And then there was the LB version (long base) for use with 12 inch tonearms. The TD125 had a cast metal chassis and had outstanding build quality.

Heard of ERA anyone? ERA stands for Etudes et Recherches Acoustiques (which translates as Acoustic Studies and Research, now does this ring a bell? - resonates with the legendary AR, but that's for another story). This French brand made a whole line of turntables that were widely exported. They claimed that they took mass market turntables and reversed engineered them in "Research Laboratories", thereby identifying design shortcomings, which they then mitigated and incorporated these in their own line of turntables. One such innovation is what they called the "Bloc-Source" friction-free horizontal pivot for their tonearms. ERA turntables were billed as "Rumble Free".

The ERA 6066 was their top of the line turntable, launched worldwide in 1972. It came with a Bloc-Source tonearm and looked strikingly close to the TD125. They claimed that they bettered the Thorens 3-point sub-chassis was researched in-depth and bettered by them. The ERA 6066 appears every now on then on eBay (especially in France and Germany) and sells for significantly less, with tonearm when compared to the 125 without tonearm.

Here is a visual comparison - Thorens TD125 (on the left) and ERA 6066 (on the right)

Td-1.jpgERA-1.JPG

TD-2.jpgERA-2.JPG


TD3.jpgERA-5.jpg

TD4.jpgERA-6.jpg

ERA Tonearm

ERA-3.JPGERA-4.JPG

Note: These are stock pictures hence cosmetic condition may vary.

Personal opinion: The ERA seems to be a good deck but it is very hard to match the build quality and reputation of the Thorens TD125 (as with all legends). Also the TD125 features a more refined PSU.

I mentioned AR above and left that story for another time. Both Thorens and ERA claim never to have known about Edgar Villchir's suspended sub-chassis design before coming up with these (which is hard to believe). His design, the legendary AR XA turntable was the first to feature this design and is considered to be a legend killer itself. The AR XA started the belt-drive revolution (which saw the end of the idler era). Belt drives continue on till this day and were only challenged by Direct Drive designs that appeared in the early 1970s.
 
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Having played around with the L75 for a bit, it sounds really nice in stock condition (even with its original tonearm provided the v-blocks are replaced and the tonearm is rewired) when mounted in a multilayered plinth (i used upto 5 layers of 1-inch ply). The demerit of the L75 is that to get it to excel, it has to be rebuilt literally so good DIY skills are required with access to a good workshop or one has to buy expensive parts from abroad. But for those who are really in to idler turntables, the sound and performance of Lenco L75 just seems to be so very enjoyable.

......
One may look for Lenco L 75/S. This model was created for DJ market with a Jelco "s" shaped tonearm and two speeds ( 33 and 45). Rest are the same compared L 75. It comes up in online portals for sale and relatively cheaper compared to L 75. It is a good option for Lenco DIY projects
 
One may look for Lenco L 75/S. This model was created for DJ market with a Jelco "s" shaped tonearm and two speeds ( 33 and 45). Rest are the same compared L 75. It comes up in online portals for sale and relatively cheaper compared to L 75. It is a good option for Lenco DIY projects
this is great, I found a few version of the S, some badged as Se

L75S.jpgL75s inside.jpgLenco L75_s underside.jpg
L75 S - 2 speed.jpg
 
Many record enthusiasts prefer to use idler drive turntables, even in these modern times. The idler design concept is ancient and considered obsolete as these turntables are considered noisy and the condition of the rubber idler wheel is usually a key dependency. An erratic or worn idler wheel can result in change in pitch, wow and flutter and reduced torque in these turntables and for changers, the deck will slow down when the auto-mechanism kicks in or the auto mechanism may fail all together as the platter will not have enough torque for moving the levers.

Idler drive turntables, however have their signature sound (referred to as bass slam, bass attack, low frequency timing, etc among others). The reasons behind this unique sound, is explained here.

So you want to get into idler turntables but are on a budget or maybe you want to sample the sound before you scale up the investment. You may want to consider one these faithful little Idler transcription turntables from the mid 1960s.

Garrard SP25 Mk1 vs Dual 1019

Many may know the Garrard 301 and 401 but not too many remember the SP25 series. The SP25 series commenced production in 1965 and was Garrard's answer to the necessity for a high quality single record player for the mass market. This 4-speed deck went on to become Garrard's highest selling decks ever and they had a long production run through 4 series (mk1 to mk4), the mk4 launch was in 1974. The MK1 and MK2 were semi-automatic designs with tonearm lift and return, whereas the Mk3 and Mk4 were fully automatic designs. These decks were rugged and could take abuse on the road, the tonearms were decent and could track at VTFs as low as 1 gram. A popular cartridge paired with this series was the Shure M76-6s and this added to the great sounds. The Garrard SP25 has a place of honour among idler-drive enthusiasts and particularly Lenco enthusiasts. Jean Nantais, who popularized the whole Lenco revival, first heard the “idler-drive sound” on an SP25 and couldn’t believe how this little turntable surpassed high-end belt-drive turntables that he had owned and heard (Linn LP-12 included). He was greatly surprised by the vastly superior bass slam, overall slam and also its quite gifted ability, in terms of information retrieval. Incidentally the SP25 MK1 is the most desirable version of this series. Another piece of trivia about the Garrard SP25 Mk1 is it was a favourite with Jamaican sound system DJs. In Jamaican popular culture, a sound system is a group of disc jockeys, engineers and MCs playing ska, rocksteady or reggae music. The sound system is an important part of Jamaican culture and history. More details on the Jamaican Sound System can be checked out here.

The Dual 1019 turntable also hit the market in 1965 and is a fully automatic, idler driven turntable (unlike the semi-automatic SP25). In fact, it is popular amongst the 78 community due to its high torque motor and heavy 7.5 pound platter. The automatic start/stop system is pretty complex and is completely mechanical. Like the Garrard SP25s, this one comes with a 10 inch platter. The Dual has a very reliable friction free dynamically balanced tonearm with direct dial continuously variable anti-skating compensation, cue and pitch control and elastically damped counterbalance with rapid and fine adjust. The arm tube is thick and rigid and can track as low as 1/2 gram. The tonearm performance is better than the Garrard SP25. For me, where the Dual scores over the Garrard is in the looks department. If you get one in good cosmetic condition, and when mounted in a teak finish wood plinth, it is a true stunner.

Here is a visual comparison - Garrard SP25 Mk1 (on the left) and Dual 1019 (on the right)

sp25-1.jpgDual-1.jpg

SP25 inside.jpgdual inside.jpg

sp25 underside.jpgdual underside.jpg
Note: These are stock pictures hence cosmetic condition may vary.

The Dual may be hard to find in India but does come up once in a while on olx.in. However these are available in abundance on eBay Germany. The SP25 Mk2 and Mk3 are easier to find on eBay UK but the SP25 Mk1 does come up once in a while. I suggest never to buy the Dual in India, once the auto mech gives trouble, it is very hard to calibrate it. One common issue with these turntables is dried grease and oil, although the Garrard requires minimal amounts of these. It would be better to do a complete cleaning and lube job on either of them them before normal play.

My Personal Opinion: The Dual is a mechanically and spec-wise superior deck but has a complex auto-mechanism. The build quality of both turntables is great, both are built like Tanks but I feel the Garrard's tonearm is a little more accurate and nimble. The Dual is cosmetically more appealing and has a great fan following. I have grown up listening to the Garrard SP25 Mk1 and I can say for sure that it is a great sounding deck. With it mounted to a proper plinth, one can enjoy the classic idler sound for about 50 GBP.
 
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The brand Lenco (vintage) has gained significant interest especially since the resurgence of records and idler decks. The L75 has attained cult status with regular users, and also with DIY enthusiasts and audiophiles. This has resulted in most of the available L75s disappearing into personal collections and DIY workshops. There are a few that still come up but with high price tags. This has resulted in renewed interest in some of the other Lenco idler models, the likes of the L70, L72, L78, etc. But again, the Lenco tag impacts the cost and availability. If you are on the look out for the L72 (or the Lenco B55) and can't find one, you may want to look out for the Sony PS 5011.

Visual Comparison - Lenco L72 (on the left) vs Lenco B55 on the right

L72.jpgB55.jpg

L72 inside.jpgB55 inside.jpg

L72 Underside.jpgB55 Underside.jpg

Now, the Sony PS 5011 external and internal pics, very similar if not rebadged

Sony PS 5011.jpgSony PS 5011 inside.jpg
Note; these are random stock pictures for illustrative purposes only, hence cosmetic condition may vary
 
I also own a 301, which is having some issues. Some parts need to be replaced. It is lying with Naren who will work on it. However, I am not sure I miss the 301 with the L75 in play at the moment. The L75 plinth was built by Joshua and it is pretty heavy. The table sounds pretty great. So, yeah. If you can get a 301, nothing like it. But one should keep an eye out for the L75 as well.
 
its hearting to see the feedback for this thread as the intent is to help those starting out or those planning to upgrade. When these situations come up, an experienced turntable user is often contacted and long conversations, sometimes multiple conversations are had discussing a lot of these elements. Why not put some of this down for the benefit of all. Only a week ago, I had a 2 hour long conversation about turntables with another enthusiast which again was on similar lines - i cant afford this or i cant find this, what do i do as an alternate, is this one worth it or is that one good? Most of my posts are based on my own ownership experience and that of close family and friends. Hence many options or comparisons may not be covered. If you have any similar experiences or thoughts, please post them for the benefit of all.
 
A beautiful, well-constructed speaker with class-leading soundstage, imaging and bass that is fast, deep, and precise.
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