reubensm
Well-Known Member
Dear all, came across this post which I thought sounded interesting and revealing.
LP still better than Digital? - AudioBanter
LP still better than Digital? - AudioBanter
LP vs Digital - Good Read
- Thread starter reubensm
- Start date
Interesting article and I certainly don't spout the end of vinyl etc....but digital has progressed to such an extent that I don't think personally I would want to go back to LPs anymore.
(Oh God! I will probably incur the wrath of the vinyl-brigade now)
However, there is little doubt that a well looked after record and good TT probably trounces a poorly set up digital system.....
I have had Wiess digital equipment (referred to in the article but the top model) and I would therefore take the article with a pinch of salt. Daniel Weiss knows what he is doing and really is on the forefront of this technology.
But once again...to each his own!
(Oh God! I will probably incur the wrath of the vinyl-brigade now)
However, there is little doubt that a well looked after record and good TT probably trounces a poorly set up digital system.....
I have had Wiess digital equipment (referred to in the article but the top model) and I would therefore take the article with a pinch of salt. Daniel Weiss knows what he is doing and really is on the forefront of this technology.
But once again...to each his own!
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
Same old question, same old answers, same old rushed-to conclusion*.
Would, no doubt, have been a fascinating excercise, comparing the several recordings on the different media --- but to draw any Big Digital Vinyl v Digital conclusion is just so wrong.
As almost immediately commented on the link, the correct vinyl/digital comparison, of that lp, would have been to digitise the lp itself, and then compare same with same. The test would have to be blind, of course, although, when one hears something that blows one's own expectations, its quite likely real, so I'm not going to even think of disputing that the LP did actually give the most enjoyable performance in their test.
The best part of this story is that the subject of the post is now going to enjoy his late dad's record collection, rather than leaving it in boxes
* I read on a couple of posts
Would, no doubt, have been a fascinating excercise, comparing the several recordings on the different media --- but to draw any Big Digital Vinyl v Digital conclusion is just so wrong.
As almost immediately commented on the link, the correct vinyl/digital comparison, of that lp, would have been to digitise the lp itself, and then compare same with same. The test would have to be blind, of course, although, when one hears something that blows one's own expectations, its quite likely real, so I'm not going to even think of disputing that the LP did actually give the most enjoyable performance in their test.
The best part of this story is that the subject of the post is now going to enjoy his late dad's record collection, rather than leaving it in boxes
* I read on a couple of posts
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This one made me smile too
I have tons of books and prefer them to my Kindle, but I know I am fighting against what is a certain future. I am hoping that paper books don't become obsolete (or overpriced like vinyl) in my lifetime. I would guess it is the same with Vinyl. Even if digital doesn't sound as good right now, it *is* the future. I am unwilling to believe that there are problems with digital which cannot be solved.
Besides, any consumable that needs 150gms of a petroleum product is a no-no. If I can avoid giving money to some middle eastern thug who will use it to fund my death, I will.
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How funny! The page linked says "Sorry. The administrator has banned your IP address. To contact the administrator click here"
This one made me smile too
I have tons of books and prefer them to my Kindle, but I know I am fighting against what is a certain future. I am hoping that paper books don't become obsolete (or overpriced like vinyl) in my lifetime. I would guess it is the same with Vinyl. Even if digital doesn't sound as good right now, it *is* the future. I am unwilling to believe that there are problems with digital which cannot be solved.
Besides, any consumable that needs 150gms of a petroleum product is a no-no. If I can avoid giving money to some middle eastern thug who will use it to fund my death, I will.
Your post was very interesting with nice sattire...like hoping the books will not be expensive like vinyls.(but in fact they already are more expensive!!)
I won't deny that digital music problems cannot be sorted out but my main concern is that it is only if they are left with non-digitized/non-compressed sources/formats in future. I would hate to see a time when we have the technology for such 'True-lossless' formats (just like HD replaced by true HD when they realised that its not HD!!) but not to have a 'non-lossy' source to be processed by this technology. Else everything is Garbage In/Garbage Out (GIGO).
Similar to feeding some crap to a super computer & hoping to get out gold coins. For god's sake, its dependent on input...Technology is not an Alchemist.
Thats my opinion.
On the issue of petroleum products, first I smiled, then I gave some thought to your concern, though smiling.
I havent researched on it too much, but I still prefer Analog over digital as I am burning more petrol than Lps that I buy.
I am thoughtful of the concern of our death funding BTW!
Thanks for reading,
Saket
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i second that matey...
square_wave
Well-Known Member
Disagree
For all practical reasons, the important test is to buy an LP and CD / Digital download and do a comparison of both.
Theoretically / academically the LP and its digitized version can be tested. But the result is only academic in nature and does not have any use in a music lovers life.
Vinyl heads love their music on LPs because they do not like the alternative digitized version.
Try doing a conversion of CD to LP and compare this to an original pressing. Things start getting very confusing but again the result is very academic with no use.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
I remember a gent on headfi who said something similar.
If I convert an LP to digital and make an mp3 out of it, I can hear all the ticks and crackles and analogue sound so why should I buy Vinyl ? Hell, there are plugins that can do this for me !
The dude is assuming that digital is the all-encompassing truth. The mother or source ! He is ignoring the all-important fact that analogue is the mother / source and digital is just a convenient storage medium and engineers have been fighting many decades to overcome all the demons that make digital sound unreal . They have come a long way and state of the art digital sounds very close to the real thing nowadays. He was a fairly youngish chap whose first music exposure would have been the i-pod ! So we can forgive him.
If I convert an LP to digital and make an mp3 out of it, I can hear all the ticks and crackles and analogue sound so why should I buy Vinyl ? Hell, there are plugins that can do this for me !
The dude is assuming that digital is the all-encompassing truth. The mother or source ! He is ignoring the all-important fact that analogue is the mother / source and digital is just a convenient storage medium and engineers have been fighting many decades to overcome all the demons that make digital sound unreal . They have come a long way and state of the art digital sounds very close to the real thing nowadays. He was a fairly youngish chap whose first music exposure would have been the i-pod ! So we can forgive him.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
No! It does not have any use in a vinyl lover's life.
Or, maybe, it has no place in the life of those who will always choose a commercially-available vinyl over a commercially-available CD. Or it has no place in the lives of those who have no place for a computer in their audio setup. There are plenty such people, and, sure, let them be happy: happiness is what we listen to music for.
More probably, because they do not like the remixed and/or remastered version that the record company has issued as a CD.
Or, that they regard the sound of a particular LP that they have been listening to as their referance, so different will always, to them, be worse.
Look at the Matrix group tests. If I remember correctly (please go to the source for accuracy!) LPs were often preferred to CDs. However, when the LP was digitised, and a CD made, mostly those people were unaware of the difference.
The difference is in commercial CDs, and not, necessarily, in analogue v. digital.
The Matrix tests really shoudl stand as the gold standard, if not for specific results, then at least for method --- but (watch, it is about to happen, it always does
) someone will say, Hey, I'm a better audiophile, experienced listener, got more expensive kit, whatever than them 
But we really can't forgive you, for quoting any sort of test which includes lossy compression, and using that in any sort of reasonable argument. No conclusions can be drawn from what some guy, who may be deafer than I am, says about MP3!
Is vinyl sound more "real" in the physical, engineering sense? Then why does it have to be distorted out of almost all recognition just to get it recorded on a vinyl disk? Vinyl: just a storage medium that engineers have been fighting many decades to overcome all the demons of. Except now I guess they've stopped, which might be a shame. Do be fair!
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Simon Wires
Well-Known Member
There are lot of ways available to check the TIME ... In the mobile phone, Computer, FM radio etc, and all are in the hand reach.
yet, we have a 'wall clock' in the hall. Wonder why!!
No one prefers the digital dial watch,, wonder why!!
yet, we have a 'wall clock' in the hall. Wonder why!!
No one prefers the digital dial watch,, wonder why!!
ajinkya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Limewire
There are lot of ways available to check the TIME ... In the mobile phone, Computer, FM radio etc, and all are in the hand reach.
yet, we have a 'wall clock' in the hall. Wonder why!!
No one prefers the digital dial watch,, wonder why!!
I don't...because as an engineer I consider it fastidiousness and a waste of resources to wear a contraption that gives you the same information as something that is lighter (in most cases) and that you carry in your pocket anyway. I've sold all my watches a long time back and have never felt the need for one now. The only watch I still have is the one I use for jogging...when I don't carry my phone for long runs and when I need to time myself for sprints. And it's digital because I need that precision
I really do agree with Thad's point that sticking with vinyl is another form of nostalgia...just like people claim old cars and old planes were better, sturdier, more fun to drive/fly. It's just not true...it's only fond memories of the past speaking.
Ajinkya... sorry! I editied your post by mistake... instead of pressing the quote button, i pressed the edit button on my panel...
have gone 'back' on my browser to cut paste your original post above....
forgive me...
anyhow, what i wanted to say to your post was: Good bait for a vinylhead like me, but i am not biting!
Originally Posted by Limewire
There are lot of ways available to check the TIME ... In the mobile phone, Computer, FM radio etc, and all are in the hand reach.
yet, we have a 'wall clock' in the hall. Wonder why!!
No one prefers the digital dial watch,, wonder why!!
I don't...because as an engineer I consider it fastidiousness and a waste of resources to wear a contraption that gives you the same information as something that is lighter (in most cases) and that you carry in your pocket anyway. I've sold all my watches a long time back and have never felt the need for one now. The only watch I still have is the one I use for jogging...when I don't carry my phone for long runs and when I need to time myself for sprints. And it's digital because I need that precision
I really do agree with Thad's point that sticking with vinyl is another form of nostalgia...just like people claim old cars and old planes were better, sturdier, more fun to drive/fly. It's just not true...it's only fond memories of the past speaking.
Ajinkya... sorry! I editied your post by mistake... instead of pressing the quote button, i pressed the edit button on my panel...
have gone 'back' on my browser to cut paste your original post above....
forgive me...
anyhow, what i wanted to say to your post was: Good bait for a vinylhead like me, but i am not biting!
Bad analogy. A wall clock is quite useless if one is interested in accuracy. Is it useful for a rough estimate of time? Maybe .. like a boombox is for listening to music. If I need accurate measurements, I will prefer something better than a watch that uses a 1 Hz mechanical oscillator.
Also, all the clocks you see around you are closer to digital than analog. All of them have an oscillator followed by a frequency divider. The mechanical ones have oscillators of frequency 1 Hz (or more in case of wrist watches). The electronic ones will use oscillators of much higher frequency. The frequency divider may be mechanical or electronic and the display may be a rotating hand or a seven segment led array or anything you want it to be.
If you are really interested in analog watches, try one of these.
Solar dial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Clepsydra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hourglass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Candle clock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Just clarifying a point. Not a part of the digital music vs vinyl debate.
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ajinkya
Active Member
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square_wave
Well-Known Member
Correct. So what is your point ? What is the relevance? Why would someone who does not play or contemplate Vinyl even think about all this ? This is only applicable to folks who play vinyl ! Unless someone is planning to write a book about all this. A book which is of no use to anyone who has to live with ground realities!
This is one of strangest things I have ever heard. I am not a Vinyl head. I will probably not do Vinyl in the next decade. But one listen to a well setup analogue source and I know why Vinyl heads love their Vinyl. I respect their passion for it. Try and explore more and you will know why they do.
BTW, state of the art digital playback has been around for decades. It did not come into being with computers. What regular computers bought to the table is affordable high quality digital playback. A purposefully created digital playback system for high definition digital files is state of the art too. I am not sure if such systems are just computers in the strictest sense of the word.
Do a reality check mate !
We have discussed the matrix tests many times and why audiophiles would like to do different versions of it. I dont know why DBT-heads want to do it only matrix style
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Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
My point was that your points were eroneous. You didn't answer it.
My point here is to listen to what you like, but not make erroneous claims and statements about it.
Where Did We Start
With a reference to post elsewhere about a guy who found an inherited LP sounded better than CD versions of the same piece of music. OK: that's what he found... but the thread is headed LP vs Digital.
His experience has nothing to do with LP vs Digital. If people want "LP vs Digital" they should do proper tests and trials. If they don't, why come to this thread? Did they think it said Strawberry Ice Cream at the top of the page?
That isn't really my point of view.
Nostalgia has to be to do with something in the past. It is the case that I've been familiar with round black things with grooves for nearly sixty years, and that I have said that handling an LP, the sleeve, the disk, the turntable, is a different experience to handling a cd, braking that horrible box as you remove, struggling to see anything in the 25% reproduction of the cover art work. It is also the case that I don't play much vinyl these days --- but I have not said it is all about nostalgia.
As for wall clocks: I have, sometimes, if the get your filthy digital away from our LPs cry could get any less relevant. Now I know it can be irrelevant without limit.
If "digital technology" (which might even be moving those hands) affects a person that badly, what are they doing in front of a computer, reading this?Square_wave, I do not like to get personal, but I wonder how old you are. Did I mention that I was putting round black things on a turntable back in nineteen-fifty-something? I think I did. Did I mention I own a Turntable? Maybe not recently. Did I mention a certain experience of a wonderful high-end vinyl setup I enjoyed recently? not in this thread, so you might easily not have seen it, but you might be a little more careful with your assumptions. Do you think I don't like what you youngsters call "vinyl*?" :lol: Perhaps you don't actually read what I write? I wish you would: I enjoy conversation.
*Heck... Shellac is the only real way to go. Listening tests proved that people could not tell it from a real performance.
(Because they taught the singers to sound like a gramaphone! :lol
And I wish my mum hadn't thrown out the old 78s. That would be my nostalgia.
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reubensm
Well-Known Member
interesting comments, I collect vinyl and enjoy it completely (the sound, the nostalgia and the equipment) but I enjoy digital as well. This is possible as my expectations are as simple as just getting to listen to, and enjoy music, the way it appeals to me, the most.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
Me too. Unfortunately, my future ability to engage with serious hifi, is going to limited, not by cash, as it has been for most of my life, but by hearing, which is not a replacable commodity. Otherwise, if I did even a semi-serious setup in a proper room (like ...even including the stuff I own already) it would include a turntable. And, in some instances, I would continue to prefer CDs to LPs where I own both.
We had termites recently. I can live with the fact that they ate the last remaining family heirloom: a real grass skirt that an explorer-member of my mothers family took back to UK in 1935, even though it is sad, but I'd be in tears if they ate my record covers or my books.
We had termites recently. I can live with the fact that they ate the last remaining family heirloom: a real grass skirt that an explorer-member of my mothers family took back to UK in 1935, even though it is sad, but I'd be in tears if they ate my record covers or my books.
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