Music - With Video or Without?

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(These musings were triggered when I read @Nikhil’s thread on ‘YouTube Streaming’ this morning)

Music videos are a very potent and popular format of music dissemination today, but they can also be polarising. While some gorge on them, there may be others who shun them. I wanted to delve a bit into the subject to trigger a nuanced appreciation of the issue.

What essentially a music video does is it augments the music (which is the primary material being conveyed) by supporting it with visuals - whether of the actual performance or something else. What is happening here essentially is that along with our auditory sense, the music video also captures our visual sense. And gives a combined AV experience.
What could be the pro’s of such an approach to listening to music? I can think of:

1. Less external distraction as the eyes are engaged too. This will help capture the generally more distracted audience. Is that why teenagers get attracted to music videos? May be. But given that the distractedness world over has increased significantly over the last 20-30 years, music videos (or some form of AV) can engage the masses better.

2. Augment the story conveyed through the music by appropriate visuals (stationary or moving). Remember the popularity of ‘Chhayageet’ in the 70s-80s? It’s essentially this. The musical message gets reinforced by the visuals. In fact, in Indian culture, ‘Sangeet’ which is the common term for music, as definition stood for ‘gaayan’, ‘vaadan’ and ‘nritya’ - not just the former two. There was usually a visual element inbuilt into the music - whether classical or folk, especially folk.

In fact, before the 1920’s or so, that is before recorded music arrived, mankind consumed music always with the visuals - you could only listen to the music live - and saw the performers/performance as well. So, one can say we are kind of used to (programmed to?) AV listening.

Listening to music without any visual input is therefore a relatively recent phenomenon, not more than 100 years old, starting with the gramophone. But then, in these 100 odd years (and especially the first 60 odd till the 70’s before TV became mainstream), mankind listened to a lot of recorded music - in fact developed a keen interest and following of music in this period due to the accessibility provided by records/cassettes/CDs and the biggest of them all - the radio. At least three generations have developed their musical following primarily through music devoid of accompanying visual content.

So one could say, the last century, which in many ways inculcated the music listening habit could have in some way reversed the original conditioning of music with visuals (till 19th century). The new conditioning of ‘closing your eyes and meditating on the music’ must have got reinforced strongly in us.



That brings us to the possible contentions against music videos:

1. The main argument against is essentially the first pro above flipped. Many of us avid listeners, especially audiophiles might feel that it is very difficult, even impossible to focus intently on the musical content while being distracted by the visuals in the music video. With the brain’s reception and processing divided between two different sensory inputs, its capacity to focus on the nuances in both the musical as well as audio attributes reduces. This makes attentive and/or analytical listening difficult. Try listening to a Youtube musical video (vs an audio CD of the same performance) and you’d easily experience this challenge.

2. The other downside of music accompanied by video is that it doesn’t permit the imagination of the listener to create his/her own visualisation. It’s kind of like reading a novel vs. watching a movie made on the novel. The visuals in the music video will dominate, therefore creating an identical visual in each listener’s mind. And that visual or parts of it could carry over even when you are listening to just an audio playback of the music later.

So we see that there are two sides to the coin (as there always are to each coin) when it comes to music videos. And it’s not a question of what’s better, or which format should I listen to my music in. The answer will be contextual - to both the preference of the person as well as the purpose of listening.

So, like many younger music lovers find it, they prefer to explore new music on YouTube videos. And then follow up with keen repeated listening of the tracks/albums they like on pure audio music streaming services like Spotify or Gaana.

There are also some musical presentations that suit the AV format. For example orchestras - one friend I know loves watching YouTube videos of 40 piece (instruments) orchestras playing old Hindi songs. Because you get to not just hear, but also see the instrument being played or the singer’s expressions. In fact this can be generalised to most live music - Concerts for example. Remember MTV Unplugged? Or watched Queen’s live concerts on YouTube? You’d get what I mean. It’s not the same though with a Hindustani classical concert where the artists express exclusively/dominantly through their voice/instruments.

But when you are sitting in your lounger in the night winding down with a glass of drink, you are more likely to put on the vinyl or CD of your favourite artist and get lost in it.

(This is a musing and no way meant to be do/don’t advice. Each one of us is different and so will be our optimum choices. What’s your choice when it comes to listening to music - with video or without? And it won’t be as bipolar for most of us, so when/which music do you like to listen to as music video and when/which as pure audio? Share in your experiences and thoughts).

27F50FB6-BB33-4AA2-9F2E-6F586CFFAFDF.jpeg
 
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Personally, I like listening to pure audio over music videos. It's probably my pre-conditioning which makes the distraction free environment, more appealing/meditative. You have written so well on this, supporting and countering your argument :)

In fact, before the 1920’s or so, that is before recorded music arrived, mankind consumed music always with the visuals - you could only listen to the music live - and saw the performers/performance as well. So, one can say we are kind of used to (programmed to?) AV listening.

As this is a discussion about visuals, allow me to add a screen grab from Ray's Jalsaghar :)
1586406148609.png

You have already written about this in your post (as quoted above), this was how music was supposed to be, but as with every turn of the evolutionary wheel, we have devised new and innovative ways to recreate that illusion in a cost effective manner and made it more inclusive.
Music, in its truest sense (or any other art form) should be seen as an attempt made by the artist to recreate his understanding of an illusion, an avenue to express his/her emotion. We, the listener, try to interpret it with our own limited resources/understanding. If we consider a parallel in movies, we often see reviews describing some movie as "extremely realistic". But, isn't that movie too a film maker's version of reality, which we agree upon?

So, it turns out that we will need lots of sensory information to make some sense of it all and be, and in such a scenario a visual stimuli should help in better appreciation.

Some additional thoughts/arguments:

With an artist/album -

1. Will the appearance of an artist, the way he/she looks, impact the way we judge their performance?
2. Does a well directed music video, sway our opinion about an album, which would've been mediocre otherwise?
3. Does a beautifully designed album cover art, sway our judgement on an otherwise drab performance and make us listen to the album more?

If we answer "yes" to 1,2 or 3 above, are the visuals aiding or taking away the experience?
 
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80s pop and rock has some fantastic music videos. But yes majority of music I only enjoy audios. In fact some muisc videos had budget of a small film.
Regards.
 
I will prefer well recorded video to only music. May it be 2ch or 5.1.
Sitting in one sweet spot and imagining all thing is not preferred by me than enjoying good videos.Reasons could be many.

1.I grown up listening to valve radio. I used to get up listening to radio in school days which was mono.Never sat at one place to just listen.

2.During my SSC, radio replaced by 2in1 and would play while studying.So no sweet spot again but music was top priority.

3.In TV days, movie songs were been enjoyed.So it was audio visual again,

4. Then when l got introduced to HiFi in AV expo, I was stunned by HT demo of Denon top line avr and its surround effects.So l got an Onkyo htib before l could get dedicated stereo system.

5.Joined Hifivision after reading good FM interactions and got a HiFi speaker for htib.

6.By the time I got a stereo system, I realized that l can't sit in one position just to listen music :). I like to enjoy good recorded live videos which can actually present the way musicians play than imagining it.One can see singers and efforts to reach that level.If its Bollywood videos,then like to see dance(if arranged well:))and enjoy music simultaneously .

7.Few more things to add in common .Before we get stereo music records, it was only av which humans used to follow.How?
Be it any event in Temple, people used to sing Aarati/Bhajans with instruments played by them and rest(Shrota) used to listen/Enjoy it.
Be it any Sangeet natak, again AV was the mode of music.
Be it the time of King ,again Rajgayak used to sing and rest of vadya used to be played which again is av:). Even today, many of us have enjoyed live concerts(AV again) and may not be getting exact musical experience in homes.

May that can be the reason I do enjoy music with good visuals (not static) better.
Cheers.
 
My responses within your comments below (is there a better way to format a split reply? Please advise.).

Personally, I like listening to pure audio over music videos. It's probably my pre-conditioning which makes the distraction free environment, more appealing/meditative. You have written so well on this, supporting and countering your argument :)


As this is a discussion about visuals, allow me to add a screen grab from Ray's Jalsaghar :)
View attachment 45081

You have already written about this in your post (as quoted above), this was how music was supposed to be, but as with every turn of the evolutionary wheel, we have devised new and innovative ways to recreate that illusion in a cost effective manner and made it more inclusive.
Music, in its truest sense (or any other art form) should be seen as an attempt made by the artist to recreate his understanding of an illusion, an avenue to express his/her emotion. We, the listener, try to interpret it with our own limited resources/understanding. If we consider a parallel in movies, we often see reviews describing some movie as "extremely realistic". But, isn't that movie too a film maker's version of reality, which we agree upon?

Oh what a film by the master on a music crazy aristocrat! It was actually a bit concerning as an audiophile who spends good amount of time listening to music watching the film. :)

So, it turns out that we will need lots of sensory information to make some sense of it all and be, and in such a scenario a visual stimuli should help in better appreciation.
A film maker's primary mode is the visual, supported by the audio. But a musician's primary mode is audio. Unless the primary artist (singer or composer as the case it) is involved in the ideation of the video, the visual may end up creating a different illusion than what the maker intended. This can especially be a concern where marketers take up promotional videos.

Some additional thoughts/arguments:

With an artist/album -

1. Will the appearance of an artist, the way he/she looks, impact the way we judge their performance?
2. Does a well directed music video, sway our opinion about an album, which would've been mediocre otherwise?
3. Does a beautifully designed album cover art, sway our judgement on an otherwise drab performance and make us listen to the album more?

If we answer "yes" to 1,2 or 3 above, are the visuals aiding or taking away the experience?

Very pertinent questions... and you've broadened the issue to even peripherals 'album art' etc) that also create a visual impression. Guess, a coherent vision across the various modes/media and creation process will be key.

I will prefer well recorded video to only music. May it be 2ch or 5.1.
Sitting in one sweet spot and imagining all thing is not preferred by me than enjoying good videos.Reasons could be many.

1.I grown up listening to valve radio. I used to get up listening to radio in school days which was mono.Never sat at one place to just listen.

2.During my SSC, radio replaced by 2in1 and would play while studying.So no sweet spot again but music was top priority.

3.In TV days, movie songs were been enjoyed.So it was audio visual again,

4. Then when l got introduced to HiFi in AV expo, I was stunned by HT demo of Denon top line avr and its surround effects.So l got an Onkyo htib before l could get dedicated stereo system.

5.Joined Hifivision after reading good FM interactions and got a HiFi speaker for htib.

6.By the time I got a stereo system, I realized that l can't sit in one position just to listen music :). I like to enjoy good recorded live videos which can actually present the way musicians play than imagining it.One can see singers and efforts to reach that level.If its Bollywood videos,then like to see dance(if arranged well:))and enjoy music simultaneously .

Quite representative of the music listening journey for most of us in the 40-60 are bracket. I guess the sitting at one place vs moving about is a personality specific characteristic. I was (and still am) more the 'sit and listen 'kind of person. What you seem to be saying here is that self-visualisation comes easier if you are sitting at one place and focus, and video aided-visualisation helps those who move about and do other things.

7.Few more things to add in common .Before we get stereo music records, it was only av which humans used to follow.How?
Be it any event in Temple, people used to sing Aarati/Bhajans with instruments played by them and rest(Shrota) used to listen/Enjoy it.
Be it any Sangeet natak, again AV was the mode of music.
Be it the time of King ,again Rajgayak used to sing and rest of vadya used to be played which again is av:). Even today, many of us have enjoyed live concerts(AV again) and may not be getting exact musical experience in homes.

Yes, in all these setups there was/is a visual element... every live music will have it. In some cases, like the temple aartis/bhajans/kirtans, there's a third and fourth element - the singing along and the kinesthetic (body movement/dancing) that is also involved as these are participative in nature. While the audio remains a dominant element, there's more full-sense and body involvement.
May that can be the reason I do enjoy music with good visuals (not static) better.
Cheers.
 
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One downside of watching creatively made music videos is that they tend to pigeonhole the imagination. I Want To Break Free by Queen seems like a very edifying anthem. The music video on the other hand , at least according to my opinion , is quite something else. Similarly while there have been great songs filmed in Hindi music many don’t have the class that is commensurate with the quality of the song or the music. Sometimes I have come in for an unpleasant surprise to see what I thought were great songs trivialised by their trite and pedestrian portrayals in films. Also some videos appear dated ( because they portray a certain fashion perhaps ) when the music is still as fresh and relevant as ever. For these and other reasons I prefer to listen to my music and not watch them.
But that being said , live music is quite something else. One cannot get that vicarious pleasure watching the grimace on Keith Jarrett’s face as he jumps and plays his piano on God Save The Child or the contortions on Jack De’Johnette’s countenance as he ‘feels’ the music by just merely ‘ listening’ to them.
 
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is there a better way to format a split reply? Please advise.
If you are using a mouse/trackpad, instead of using the "Reply" link in message window (which will quote the whole text), select the text in the message you want to reply to, a "Reply" link will hover over the selection (as in below screenshot) using which you can continue with the conversation. Do this repeatedly for each segment of message you need to reply to. I think same is possible on touchscreen as well, albeit a bit more difficult while editing.

1586418215468.png
 
select the text in the message you want to reply to, a "Reply" link will hover over the selection
Thanks!
I think same is possible on touchscreen as well
Yes, it is - this is the proof. Thanks again!


Similarly while there have been great songs filmed in Hindi music many don’t have the class that is commensurate with the quality of the song or the music

But that being said , live music is quite something else.

Agree on both counts. Live recordings will always have real and effective videos - especially if well captured by multiple cameras and edited properly. In studio recordings it’d be a hit or miss depending on the coherency and quality of the video superimposed.
 
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Back in those times when I started listening to music late 80s the only avenue to view the music videos for me for the snippets that Pranoy Roy used to show in a program called The World This Week every Friday I think. The eventually the Grammy Awards show started being telecast at a later stage. So I have always been interested to view the musical videos of my favorite songs/artist. Those days TV was the only avenue to view them. But later with the exploration of the internet and YouTube the possibilities have been limitless to explore music videos.

However off late I try look up for the videos of Pop/Rock ones from the 80s once in a while, just to relive/fresh those memories in nostalgia.
But I actually do enjoy more sitting back and listening to complete albums which relaxes my mind. And off late my 9 year old son is also getting addicted to it, so I have company now :)

Hence as far as the topic of this thread goes, it is a matter of individual choice and preference as many of the FMs have already underlined
 
@sandeepss
The zamindar in Ray's Jalsaghar was a true audiophile who at any cost would arrange a soiree even in the midst of personal tragedy. The spectators or audiences are audio enthusiasts and another moneyed person ( sorry forgotten his name) who wanted to show his wealth truly showed the pseudo audiophiles who have no musical taste or sense
NB sorry this thread should be shifted to Av lounge
 
@sandeepss
The zamindar in Ray's Jalsaghar was a true audiophile who at any cost would arrange a soiree even in the midst of personal tragedy. The spectators or audiences are audio enthusiasts and another moneyed person ( sorry forgotten his name) who wanted to show his wealth truly showed the pseudo audiophiles who have no musical taste or sense
NB sorry this thread should be shifted to Av lounge
Sorry mods please shift this to the thread ""Who is an audiophile "on AV LOUNGE. Have mistakenly written here.
 
This article highlights the lure of ad-supported free content, which is driving up YouTube's (which is also installed on all Android devices, by default) popularity in India. This could be another valid reason for the popularity of music videos. To quote from the article:

Despite impressive numbers, there are very few people who are ready to pay for music or content in India. These apps offer their full catalogs to people for consumption with an ad or two after a few songs. The draw of free tracks is huge across the country, and ads are a small price to pay for that privilege. That’s probably why YouTube’s most popular channel is India’s Bollywood music label, T-series.

In small towns of India, there are still shops that offer to load music and videos to their phones for a nominal fee. Plus, easier to get pirated songs in MP3 format from friends through file-sharing apps.

These numbers indicate that India‘s music-loving junta, which consumes Bollywood (Hindi cinema) and regional cinema music primarily, prefer ad-supported free music service, instead of premium quality streaming or extra features.

Indian Music Industry (IMI), a body that represents record labels in the country, published a report last year stating 67 percent of people in India still listen to pirated music — which is much higher than the global average of 27 percent. The report also noted that if people are not consuming pirated music, they mostly turn to radio stations or YouTube to listen to songs.
 
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This article highlights the lure of ad-supported free content, which is driving up YouTube's (which is also installed on all Android devices, by default) popularity in India. This could be another valid reason for the popularity of music videos. To quote from the article:

YouTube also benefits from a lot of user-generated content - especially videos while the other services are almost fully dependent on royalty paid music. That could be a significant competitive advantage in a country like India where people prefer to consume content free even with ads and other inconveniences.
 
@SachinChavan
Thanks for starting such a nice thread specially at a crucial time when we are at home and have time to ponder over an issue. Really we need such thread which will enable us to think and spend our time effectively during lock down when we are slowly engulfed by despair. However, there is no enmity in between audio and video. Rather both the two can create a nice effect. As regards music I think availability is an important factor. There was a time when we depended on Radio and waited for programmes to be broadcast by the AIR. Can remember how eagerly we waited for programmes based on Bollywood movie songs , regional movie songs, Bengali Adhunik(modern songs) and Mahisasuramardini before Durgapuja. Then we didn't have TV and other medium which are available thesedays . Later we started watching TV programmes and waited for chitrahaar ( Bollywood movie songs) and chitramaala( Bengali movie songs). Then in 90's we had metro channels and had so many programmes on music. Occasionally Doordarshan telecast some live programmes. As dish TV concept arrived ,we had the chance to watch movies and listen to music. Even we had separate music channels to enjoy both desi and international music. But vinyls ,cassettes and CDs have been with us. Now we have access to Internet and watch a song and at the same time listen to it on YouTube. So I think music comes in various formats and availability plays a vital role.
Regards
 
Guys, I had posted this reflection on my FB page as well and one audiophile friend of mine, who also sings and plays guitar well responded with views that gave this subject further dimension. He pointed out to even the possibility of lyrics being a distraction for some just as visuals can be. And pointed to the necessity for all of these to be well aligned. Here’s his reply:

“Sachin, I would like to take a step back and say that, already, lyrics is a distraction to appreciating music. Visuals too form a distraction. However, there are some values laden in experiencing music - sociologically, for instance, skill as the great leveller, that sublime joy does not cost, etc. Also, the artist might be seeking to convey a particular Rasa. So long as the semantics in the lyrics and the semiotics in the visuals stay aligned with the listener's sense of the (largely unstated) underlying values, all if fine. There should not be jarring pieces. Or then, the jar should be deliberate and well designed, as in a sonata (where it is ultimately resolved, but that need not be).“

And my reply in turn:

“XXX, Thanks for the insightful reply. Yes, there’s something about music unaided by even lyrics - classical for example. An average listener (or anyone who isn’t born in a classical music surroundings) keeps evolving through the ladder of musical appreciation to reach the point where the lyrical aids aren’t necessary. One also starts finding them distracting, as you said.

But for most, lyrics keep them engaged. Words have meaning and emotional connotation that we are conditioned to. Music without words can too bring out those emotions as well or better, but that takes a very good performer (and composer). Music for masses therefore continues to use lyrics to leverage our association with words.

And then there are visuals that get further used to convey the meaning and emotion. As you said, a visual that’s coherent with the music will aid will bring to it further larger audience. May be it’s to do with the visual appeal (e.g visual aesthetics, celebrity actors, etc.) or that it engages one more sense (for those who can’t put their entire attention in one sense - here, the auditory). And perhaps, like in cases of well aligned visuals in some music videos the combined AV experience becomes another form of art itself!

But still there’d always be the devout audiophile who won’t get attracted to the visuals or lyrics even when well composed. He wants to shut all other senses (including semantic and semiotic cognition parts of the brain) and just focus entirely on experiencing the music.”
 
Less external distraction as the eyes are engaged too.
I beg to differ here ; I prefer my music ( studio albums) without a visual distraction. The music videos work towards making the video attractive, rather than on enhancing The nuances of the music. Music Videos tag a video director's understanding of the song lyrics, And tag a video that further delineates his version of Understanding of Lyrics. Many times the music video doesn't do justice to the level of pioneering music it tends to represent ( not every song gets an Equally competitive level of visualization like song & video of " Chaiyya Chaiyya"). Simply put, The difference is like reading a novel vs watching a movie based on the same novel. Though movies are good for easy consumption they are mostly not true to the original novel owing to medium constraints. But While reading a novel your understanding of the subject and your imagination comes into play which is a different treat altogether. I obviously prefer the latter experience , especially for Studio Albums ; close my eyes and get drowned in the lyrics and music. ( A state of trance( not music genre) or a musical meditation if you want to loosely describe the experience).

Having said that, there are few video versions I prefer for music.
1. Michael Jackson songs, where music videos are designed as a complete package.
2. Shanker Tusker or NPR tiny desk where the videos are less obtrusive.
3. Many live Rock / Hindustani classical performances
4. Some amazing movie tracks with great acting performances
 
I beg to differ here ; I prefer my music ( studio albums) without a visual distraction. The music videos work towards making the video attractive, rather than on enhancing The nuances of the music. Music Videos tag a video director's understanding of the song lyrics, And tag a video that further delineates his version of Understanding of Lyrics. Many times the music video doesn't do justice to the level of pioneering music it tends to represent ( not every song gets an Equally competitive level of visualization like song & video of " Chaiyya Chaiyya"). Simply put, The difference is like reading a novel vs watching a movie based on the same novel. Though movies are good for easy consumption they are mostly not true to the original novel owing to medium constraints. But While reading a novel your understanding of the subject and your imagination comes into play which is a different treat altogether. I obviously prefer the latter experience , especially for Studio Albums ; close my eyes and get drowned in the lyrics and music. ( A state of trance( not music genre) or a musical meditation if you want to loosely describe the experience).

Having said that, there are few video versions I prefer for music.
1. Michael Jackson songs, where music videos are designed as a complete package.
2. Shanker Tusker or NPR tiny desk where the videos are less obtrusive.
3. Many live Rock / Hindustani classical performances
4. Some amazing movie tracks with great acting performances

@drkrack you posted the above at almost the same time as I posted the post above yours - quoting from a conversation with a friend when I posted the same subject on my FB page. There are some resonances between the two posts.

And I don’t see you differing from me as I have elaborated on both sides of the debate. On the point of distraction, I think that while an accompanying video could feel like a distraction to you (and to many of us keen music listeners), a video playing with the music can actually capture the attention of a teenager/adolescent and actually prevent them getting distracted by the other visual clues in the environment if they don’t prefer listening to music with closed eyes. And so on.

Agree very much with you that the quality of video and especially its alignment with the message and emotion of the music itself goes a big way in deciding if it’s adding to or taking something away from the musical experience. Do read the above post for how lyrics can also be viewed from a similar angle by some.
 
If we think about it, with novels too there is a gradual removal of visual aid as the reader progresses in life; the kids get picture books with some text, teens get books with more text and some images and we get to read the ones with illustration (which is usually abstract) restricted to the cover jacket :)
 
@drkrack you posted the above at almost the same time as I posted the post above yours - quoting from a conversation with a friend when I posted the same subject on my FB page. There are some resonances between the two posts.

And I don’t see you differing from me as I have elaborated on both sides of the debate. On the point of distraction, I think that while an accompanying video could feel like a distraction to you (and to many of us keen music listeners), a video playing with the music can actually capture the attention of a teenager/adolescent and actually prevent them getting distracted by the other visual clues in the environment if they don’t prefer listening to music with closed eyes. And so on.

Agree very much with you that the quality of video and especially its alignment with the message and emotion of the music itself goes a big way in deciding if it’s adding to or taking something away from the musical experience. Do read the above post for how lyrics can also be viewed from a similar angle by some.
Yes I Agree your previous post reflects partly what I've elucidated in my post with some examples. I couldn't read it as I was typing mine.

Your friend being a Guitar player, it's quite natural for him to feel lyrics as a distraction. Few Vocal puritans don't like the tabla accompaniment in hindustani classical music. It's subjective and purely personal matter.

Music videos are a different ball game altogether, to me they're more like advertisements which are either hit or miss and effectively dictate the commercial success of the album among the masses. It's good for music listening during family gatherings, but when you want to critically appreciate the music they're a distraction.

novels too there is a gradual removal of visual aid
The imagination starts with the verbal description without the accompanying image. We're basically talking non graphic novels.
 
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