New HT Room - Advice Needed

[mspriyan]

Dear FM's,

Planning to construct a HT cum 2nd Bedroom in the terrace (10ft wide X 21 ft Long) . I have attached room plan that i have in mind.

Need your help in arrving at the electrical out points + projector power point + speaker points

Planned setup : (Which will be done in phases - Audio first then projector)
1. Projector : Panny PT-AE8000 / Epson EH-TW8100 (yet to have a demo)
2. Audio : Denon 1713 + Polk Speakers (7.1 Setup - yet to have demo)
3. Blue-Ray Player (Suggestion Welcome)
4. Xbox (probabaly after some time)
5. Logitec Universal Remote
6. Recliners 1+2+1 ( in 1 row with out steps)
7. AV Stand (Suggestion need for the brand - or can we build with wood)
8. IR transmitter in front below the screen

Questions in mind:
1) Electrical points - how many & amps ?
2) Projector power point - what amps should be provided
3) HDMI cable from AVR to Projector - should it be provided at the time of construction or can this be done latter? (will be going for a false celing later)
4) What would be the maximun screen size suitable for my room size?
5) Is it advisable to have the speakers (centre & front channels) behind the screen? if yes, do we get acoustic transparent screens in India?
6) For the IR transmitter setup - any consideration to be done at the room construction stage.
7) AC - is 1.5 ton enough?
8) Speaker points for 7.1 setup - especially fornt , middle channels.. Can i place the sub-woofer in the back?
9) Should the speaker cables be included at the time of initial wiring itself?
10) Any other points I am missing?
11) If dimmer lights to be used - can this be added later at the time of constructing the false celing?

 

[sdurani]

Any way to attach a larger diagram?

Is the theatre 10x21 or is that the entire terrace? If the latter, how big do you plan to make the HT?

 

[mspriyan]

Hi sdurani,

Thanks for the reply . The theatre size is 10X21.

Below is a bigger version

 

[sdurani]

Since the Audyssey room correction system in the Denon 1713 isn't as good as the top of the line Audyssey, I'm going to suggest speaker and seating locations that will minimize peaks & dips in the frequency response so that you end up with the smoothest sound possible in your room. This way, you're not relying as much on the room correction in your receiver to get good sound. I'm assuming the 10 foot wall at the top of your drawing will be the front of your theatre.

Obviously, the centre speaker should be at the midpoint of the front wall. Your L/R speakers should be centered at 40 inches from the midpoint (meaning 80 inch spread). Subwoofer should also be at the midpoint of room width; you can place it on front wall or back wall or anywhere along the length of the room (as long as it is at the middle of room width).

Seating should be 7 feet from the front wall, putting listeners at one of the acoustic sweet spots of room length. Since your room is so big, it will strain the subwoofer to reproduce bass at decent levels. One way around that is to move the subwoofer closer. I would put it right behind your seating (where no one will see it). This also means you get the benefits of nearfield placement: you'll hear more of your sub and less of the room, giving you much clearer/tighter bass (drum beats will be sharp, not blurry).

Side speakers should be directly to your sides or slightly forward (if you want a bit more spaciousness). Back speakers should be on the side walls, about 7 feet rearward of the seating. This will give the back speakers a roughly 60 degree spread, making it easier to hear stereo imaging behind you (where our human hearing is not so good). Having the back speakers well behind the side speakers will give you excellent rear-vs-side separation in the surround field, which is one of the hallmarks of a good 7.1 layout.

The three front speakers should be as close to ear level as possible and all four surrounds should be mounted at least 2-3 feet above ear level (less distracting AND more enveloping). Don't know if you're willing to use any room treatments (like home made absorbers), but that will improve the sound even more.

 

[just4kix]

Dear FM's,

Planning to construct a HT cum 2nd Bedroom in the terrace (10ft wide X 21 ft Long) . I have attached room plan that i have in mind.

Need your help in arrving at the electrical out points + projector power point + speaker points

Planned setup : (Which will be done in phases - Audio first then projector)

Great. Here are some of my own thoughts ...

1. Projector : Panny PT-AE8000 / Epson EH-TW8100 (yet to have a demo)

Both are great projectors. I would rate the Panasonic a notch higher in terms of build and quality. But not a deal breaker really.

2. Audio : Denon 1713 + Polk Speakers (7.1 Setup - yet to have demo)

I would suggest the Denon 2113 or equivalent instead for the size of your room.

3. Blue-Ray Player (Suggestion Welcome)

Go for a player that can be made region free or buy two players - one Region A and other Region B. BTW, it is Bluray.

4. Xbox (probabaly after some time)

Why not think of Sony PS4 which will also be blu-ray player as well.

5. Logitec Universal Remote

Harmony 800 is recommended.

6. Recliners 1+2+1 ( in 1 row with out steps)

OK.

7. AV Stand (Suggestion need for the brand - or can we build with wood)

Make sure that stand is not an enclosed box (if making one). Allow it to be open from all sides and use glass shelves.

8. IR transmitter in front below the screen

No need. Electric screens are available. They can be connected to projector 12V trigger. When projector is switched on, the trigger sends the signal to pull down the screen. When projector is switched off, the signal is sent to draw back the curtain.

Questions in mind:
1) Electrical points - how many & amps ?

5A is sufficient. Have one point for each device controlled by a single ON/OFF switch.

2) Projector power point - what amps should be provided

5A is more than sufficient. If your place has infrequent power, 800VA UPS is recommended for the projectors of your choice.

3) HDMI cable from AVR to Projector - should it be provided at the time of construction or can this be done latter? (will be going for a false celing later)

HDMI cable can be hidden in the false ceiling. But this means that if there is any fault in the cable later (unlikely but possible), then you may not be able to change it. So if the cable is enclosed in a casing/caping which itself is hidden/recessed behind a (decorative) pelment, that will be better.

4) What would be the maximun screen size suitable for my room size?

Since your room width is 10 feet, you can hope to fit an 8' wide screen which will leave 1' on either side for main L+R speakers.

5) Is it advisable to have the speakers (centre & front channels) behind the screen? if yes, do we get acoustic transparent screens in India?

Not with a floating screen. If you are planning a fixed screen, then this is possible but note that access to spakers will be restricted in this case. Also to be noted that at high volumes, the sound waves may flutter the screen.

6) For the IR transmitter setup - any consideration to be done at the room construction stage.

As I said, IR transmitter is not needed. But if you buy Logitech Harmony 800, you will get an IR transmitter. What is the purpose of the IR transmitter?

7) AC - is 1.5 ton enough?

Just about sufficient.

8) Speaker points for 7.1 setup - especially fornt , middle channels.. Can i place the sub-woofer in the back?

7.1 speakers are not required but if you go for them, you have to place the side-surrounds perpendicular to the the seats, the seats should be 1 meter ahead of the back wall and the rear-surrounds should be on the back wall. All surround speakers whould be 3 feet above the ears. You cannot place the sub-woofer at the rear - it must be in the front.

9) Should the speaker cables be included at the time of initial wiring itself?

Definitely, yes.

10) Any other points I am missing?

You may like to consider, front hieght speakers (satellites), instead of side surround.

11) If dimmer lights to be used - can this be added later at the time of constructing the false celing?

Yes.

 

[m.a.sara]

Hi,

Just4kix has pretty much summarized all the points.

Some more I can think of,

- For the dimmer lights make sure to have extra wiring/power points planned by electrician.
- For ceiling mount of the PJ, you may want to know the location(at least approx) based on ur PJ modle/screen size. As you know are going for the false ceiling, you can plan to fix the mount or leave a provision for fixing the mount before falise ceiling is done.
- For your query#3, definitely with casing as it will help later. Also leave some space (3-4ft) btw the HDMI casing and power casing for PJ.

 

[Thtpro]

Run 2 Cat5 cable from the equipment rack to
1) Projector
2) Screen
3) Light switch
4) Air conditioner
5) Curtains
This can be used for future proofing and Automation and Control

 

[prosenjit]

you first hit seating...room dimensin is too long..can you divide it..
i mwean can you make 10*14...some civil work is needed of course..

 

[mspriyan]

Since the Audyssey room correction system in the Denon 1713 isn't as good as the top of the line Audyssey, I'm going to suggest speaker and seating locations that will minimize peaks & dips in the frequency response so that you end up with the smoothest sound possible in your room. This way, you're not relying as much on the room correction in your receiver to get good sound. I'm assuming the 10 foot wall at the top of your drawing will be the front of your theatre.

Thanks sdurani. Yes, the 10' wall will be the place where I will be placing the screen.

Obviously, the centre speaker should be at the midpoint of the front wall. Your L/R speakers should be centered at 40 inches from the midpoint (meaning 80 inch spread).

I have a doubt here. Is the 80" spread that you have mentioned, minimum? It would translate to ~7'. So the effective screen size that I can go will be only around 6.5'

Subwoofer should also be at the midpoint of room width; you can place it on front wall or back wall or anywhere along the length of the room (as long as it is at the middle of room width).

Seating should be 7 feet from the front wall, putting listeners at one of the acoustic sweet spots of room length. Since your room is so big, it will strain the subwoofer to reproduce bass at decent levels. One way around that is to move the subwoofer closer. I would put it right behind your seating (where no one will see it). This also means you get the benefits of nearfield placement: you'll hear more of your sub and less of the room, giving you much clearer/tighter bass (drum beats will be sharp, not blurry).

Placing it behind the seating - immediately behind the recliners - will it be ok?

Side speakers should be directly to your sides or slightly forward (if you want a bit more spaciousness). Back speakers should be on the side walls, about 7 feet rearward of the seating. This will give the back speakers a roughly 60 degree spread, making it easier to hear stereo imaging behind you (where our human hearing is not so good). Having the back speakers well behind the side speakers will give you excellent rear-vs-side separation in the surround field, which is one of the hallmarks of a good 7.1 layout.

The three front speakers should be as close to ear level as possible and all four surrounds should be mounted at least 2-3 feet above ear level (less distracting AND more enveloping).

So I will have to first finalize the seating - based on which i will need to place the speakers. Providing speaker points at an approximate distance of 7' for side and 15 or 16' for the back surrounds would be fine. Is my understanding correct?

Don't know if you're willing to use any room treatments (like home made absorbers), but that will improve the sound even more.

Definitely. But studying the threads in the Acoustic section of the forum. Getting confused. Probably once i get an idea will post in that section for any queries. Saw that one of the FM 'mdharan' have built a HT near my place. So will start with getting information on the material he used and where he sourced them.

 

[mspriyan]

Thanks for a detailed reply just4kix.

Great. Here are some of my own thoughts ...

Both are great projectors. I would rate the Panasonic a notch higher in terms of build and quality. But not a deal breaker really.


I would suggest the Denon 2113 or equivalent instead for the size of your room.

Let me check on the price of Denon 2113. If can buy within my budget will definitely consider it. Or probably get Denon 2113 now and buy projector later.

Go for a player that can be made region free or buy two players - one Region A and other Region B. BTW, it is Bluray.


Why not think of Sony PS4 which will also be blu-ray player as well.

Actually thought of Xbox one. But not sure how useful it will be. Saw some dance titles and boxing titles for xbox. Thinking of going for Kinect - so that my niece can play with that.

Harmony 800 is recommended.
OK.

Thanks. Is it available in India. Searched Logitec india site, but found none.

Make sure that stand is not an enclosed box (if making one). Allow it to be open from all sides and use glass shelves.

Saw ur setup. It was good. was it a custom made?

No need. Electric screens are available. They can be connected to projector 12V trigger. When projector is switched on, the trigger sends the signal to pull down the screen. When projector is switched off, the signal is sent to draw back the curtain.

As I said, IR transmitter is not needed. But if you buy Logitech Harmony 800, you will get an IR transmitter. What is the purpose of the IR transmitter?

Yes, you are right. Harmony UR should be good. The reason i mentioned as IR transmitter was that since AV components will be behind or to the sides rt. So looking for a way to send the signals when remote is pointed to the screen.

5A is sufficient. Have one point for each device controlled by a single ON/OFF switch.


5A is more than sufficient. If your place has infrequent power, 800VA UPS is recommended for the projectors of your choice.

Ok will have 8 5A point for
1) Projector
2) AVR
3) BR Player
4) WD Player (future)
5) For screen (in case I go for a motorized one)
6, 7 & 8) Future

HDMI cable can be hidden in the false ceiling. But this means that if there is any fault in the cable later (unlikely but possible), then you may not be able to change it. So if the cable is enclosed in a casing/caping which itself is hidden/recessed behind a (decorative) pelment, that will be better.

Ok. Will check with the false celing person if he can provide such pelment

Since your room width is 10 feet, you can hope to fit an 8' wide screen which will leave 1' on either side for main L+R speakers.


Not with a floating screen. If you are planning a fixed screen, then this is possible but note that access to speakers will be restricted in this case. Also to be noted that at high volumes, the sound waves may flutter the screen.

Opps, then it will no be good to go for a behind screen placement.

Just about sufficient.


7.1 speakers are not required but if you go for them, you have to place the side-surrounds perpendicular to the the seats, the seats should be 1 meter ahead of the back wall and the rear-surrounds should be on the back wall. All surround speakers whould be 3 feet above the ears. You cannot place the sub-woofer at the rear - it must be in the front.


Definitely, yes.

You may like to consider, front hieght speakers (satellites), instead of side surround.

Did not get this point. Does that mean that instead of two side surrounds - go for a Floor Stander?

 

[mspriyan]

Hi,

Just4kix has pretty much summarized all the points.

Some more I can think of,

- For the dimmer lights make sure to have extra wiring/power points planned by electrician.
- For ceiling mount of the PJ, you may want to know the location(at least approx) based on ur PJ modle/screen size. As you know are going for the false ceiling, you can plan to fix the mount or leave a provision for fixing the mount before falise ceiling is done.
- For your query#3, definitely with casing as it will help later. Also leave some space (3-4ft) btw the HDMI casing and power casing for PJ.

Thanks Sara.
Dimmer lights - Sure will check with electrician
Ceiling Mount - Thanks. Then will go for the false ceiling work once I make the Projector purchase.

 

[just4kix]

@mspriyan, google and study about the concept of front height speakers. I did not mean front Floorstanders. Front height speakers are different. They are small satellite speakers placed 8 feet above ground.

 

[mspriyan]

Run 2 Cat5 cable from the equipment rack to
1) Projector
2) Screen
3) Light switch
4) Air conditioner
5) Curtains
This can be used for future proofing and Automation and Control

Thanks Thtpro. Will definitely think about the above.

 

[mspriyan]

you first hit seating...room dimensin is too long..can you divide it..
i mwean can you make 10*14...some civil work is needed of course..

Thanks for the input Prosenjit. But not sure if I can move my parents for reducing the room size.

But is there any alternative way with out civil work - like hanging a carpet etc..

 

[sdurani]

Is the 80" spread that you have mentioned, minimum?

The midpoint of the room and 20" in from each side wall are locations of very low sound pressure level (SPL), also known as nulls. If you take your sources of sound pressure (subwoofer, speakers) and place them where sound pressure is lowest (nulls), you can cancel out severe peaks & dips in the low frequencies.

Think of it as having a ragged landscape, with lots of mountains (peaks) next to lots of valleys (nulls). If you slice off the mountains and flip them over into the valleys, you'll end up with a smoother flatter landscape. My placement suggestion does the same thing when it comes to the sound in your room.

This will make the frequency response much smoother. Quieter sounds won't be masked by loud peaks, other sounds won't be buried in deep dips. You will be able pick up more details in the soundtrack compared to other people's systems, because you'll be hearing all sounds more evenly (equally loud).

For the tragically technical amongst us, your 10 foot wide room will resonate (have peaks & dips) at 57Hz, 113Hz, 170Hz, 226Hz, 283Hz. If you could play test tones at any of those frequencies, you would hear the sound alternate between loud and soft depending on which of your 4 seats you were sitting in.

The placements I suggested will cancel those room modes, giving you greater consistency across all your seats. So the 80" spread is not a question of minimum or maximum, just locations in the width of your room that will get rid of frequency response variations.

Keep in mind these are just suggestions. If sound quality is not a priority, then you don't have to place your speakers at those suggested locations.

It would translate to ~7'. So the effective screen size that I can go will be only around 6.5'

I don't see why. Suppose you did a 8-foot wide (110-inch diagonal) 16x9 shaped screen. If you were to hang it from a typical 8' high ceiling, you would still have about 3.5 feet below the screen. If you mounted your three front speakers just below that screen, they would be pretty close to ear height.

Best part: all three speakers would be at the same height, so when a car goes from left to right, its sound wouldn't go up and down in height (which happens when people make the common mistake of mounting their L/R speakers higher than the centre speaker).

Placing it behind the seating - immediately behind the recliners - will it be ok?

Absolutely, as long as it is equidistant from the side walls. Keep in mind that the ONLY reason subwoofers work is because we humans can't detect the direction of low frequencies. Otherwise, people would constantly be hearing part of the soundstage coming from a different location than their front speakers, and nobody would be buying subwoofers.

I've already mentioned the other advantages of nearfield placement: nearby means louder bass, so you don't have to turn the volume knob higher (less strain on subwoofer amp), and hearing more direct sound from your sub and less reflections from the room (cleaner/tighter bass).

So I will have to first finalize the seating - based on which i will need to place the speakers. Providing speaker points at an approximate distance of 7' for side and 15 or 16' for the back surrounds would be fine. Is my understanding correct?

Yes, perfectly correct. As for why I suggested the seating location:

If you were to walk from front to back in your room, you would notice that most sounds would be roughly the same level (equally loud) when you're at one of the 1/3 divisions of room length. So, 21 3 = 7ft. Naturally, these are ideal locations to place the listeners' ears. (Home theatre designers use this trick all the time.)

But studying the threads in the Acoustic section of the forum. Getting confused. Probably once i get an idea will post in that section for any queries.

It's a lot less confusing than you think. Just a matter of which reflections you want absorbed (front wall, to keep from interfering with the soundstage) and which reflections you want to leave alone (side walls, to improve spaciousness and envelopment).

When you're ready, start a new thread (make sure to mention/link it in this thread).

 

[Swamy_HT]

1. Projector : Panny PT-AE8000 / Epson EH-TW8100 (yet to have a demo)

Consider JVC-X35 as well as Sony HW50ES. Both are Lcos and will perform better compare to 3 LCD.

3. Blue-Ray Player (Suggestion Welcome)
4. Xbox (probabaly after some time)

Play Station 3 is the best blue ray player so far. (It will play includes 3D)
and you need not to buy Xbox. you can play games in PS3.

 

[vinay]

You will easily be aware to how much electrical points you will require with it's location. In addition create at least 4 more additional points at other area's of room, the electrical point for sub woofer you will know later on so if you are having points spread out then you will readily have a point for SW etc. The idea to have extra points is because it will save you from extension board/s as they will not look nice.

If you are planning to do the false ceiling later then it is most likely to disturb the decor of your room and moreover it will be difficult to protect all the gadgets during false ceiling's process unless you are going for the easier way of acoustic tiles etc but even with the easy route yet you are likely to have some problems.

The dimmer lights are a great idea and it is always better to do all the work at one go, be it the false ceiling, dimmers etc. With the Logitech remote you can even set the dimmer option.

V.

Questions in mind:
1) Electrical points - how many & amps ?
3) HDMI cable from AVR to Projector - should it be provided at the time of construction or can this be done latter? (will be going for a false celing later)
11) If dimmer lights to be used - can this be added later at the time of constructing the false celing?

 

[mspriyan]

Hi HFm's,

Construction work started and roofing is completed. Will take 15 - 20 days for further work to proceed.

Pictures below (before the roofing).

Meanwhile had taken my father to few of demo rooms to give him a feel of how it will be for a dedicated HT.

After this, during the discussion on this topic with family, few thoughts came up, posting for the FM's opinion on the same.

The thought was that, instead of having one 10'x21' as second bedroom - father is ok to split it in to two rooms of 10x11 and 10'x10'. (my thought is to have 10'x13' & 10'x8') and use the 10'x13' as a dedicated room. Will be removing the two windows in either of the case

Main reason was
a) It will be a dedicated HT having its own advantages
b) the cost of acoustic might come down

My questions:
i) Which of the room size would be a better choice 10'x11' or 10'x13'? (10' wide will be the screen area)
ii) Which will be the better choice to do the partition - Dry wall or a wooden wall (using plywood + acoustics)?

Entrance + Cupboard+Window on Left

2 Windows on the Right + Entrance to Bathroom (with a loft above the bathroom)

Front View

 

[sdurani]

10x13 would be the better choice.

 

[Santy]

Well I think 10'x11' is not justified for the kind of planning and budgets you have. I hate squarish HT rooms. 10'x21' is not too long either.

Why not design a wall bed like this. I think its a great idea especially for your requirement.