Peculiar problem with new receiver Onkyo TX - NR 818 - Help plz...

[elangoas]

Hi All,

I juz got Onkyo TX-NR 818 receiver (2 days back) from Kuwait.....It works very well...But with one small problem.... (It is 220 - 240V Model)

There are lot of intermittent power cuts in my area....I have installed APC 850VA inverter @ home and it backs up @ all switch boards....The receiver is connected to one of the switch boards through V-Guard Crystal plus stabilizer (3A)..

Now the problem is when there is a powercut, the receiver shutsdown & restarts itself....I initially thought it was a problem with the stabilizer not able to powerup the receiver....

So i unplugged the receiver power cord from the stabilizer & plugged it in a seperate switch box.. Even then the problem exists...

Is it something to do with the inverter (or) the receiver ? :sad: Appreciate your help

 

[yahoo0212]

its a very simple issue. If u can just appreciate the difference between Invertors and UPS ,, what I mean to say is that UPS used for computers supply uninterrupted power supply,, i.e whenever there is a power cut the UPS supplies AC power through the battery inside converting DC to AC power BUT without a PAUSE... there is no gap between the power cut and power supply to the CPU
whereas an through an invertor there is a slight PAUSE in the power supply,,although we don't notice it with fans or CFL lights or LED lights but the AVR which switches off and on itself .. its just like switch off and suddenly switch on situation.

Anywayz I dont think u will be wishing to change yr invertor but these days invertors are available with UPS facility (Uninterrupted Power Supply-UPS) which can be used to power yr AVR.. then there should not be any switch off-restart issue

 

[sandeepmohan]

I would not advise this sort of connection method. Your are safer routing the receiver through a non inverter outlet and only through the V Guard. Frequent reboots with todays software dependent receivers is going to land you in trouble.

 

[sunilkm]

Hi,

This is a common problem and not the issue with AVR.

There is a UPS mode switch at back of the APC inverter. By default it will be set to "Inverter" mode because that is the main purpose. You may check that option.

Thanks,
Sunil

 

[baijuxavior]

New inverters have a UPS mode. Switch to that for fast change over. Also, do not connect stabilizer to inverter out. Overload may be another reason for the tripping.

 

[shanmune]

Hi All,

I juz got Onkyo TX-NR 818 receiver (2 days back) from Kuwait.....It works very well...But with one small problem.... (It is 220 - 240V Model)

There are lot of intermittent power cuts in my area....I have installed APC 850VA inverter @ home and it backs up @ all switch boards....The receiver is connected to one of the switch boards through V-Guard Crystal plus stabilizer (3A)..

Now the problem is when there is a powercut, the receiver shutsdown & restarts itself....I initially thought it was a problem with the stabilizer not able to powerup the receiver....

So i unplugged the receiver power cord from the stabilizer & plugged it in a seperate switch box.. Even then the problem exists...

Is it something to do with the inverter (or) the receiver ? :sad: Appreciate your help

There is absolutely no problem with your AVR. It looks like your inverter has a bit more PAUSE time when the power goes off. Even I have this problem, but in a different way. I also have a 850 VA inverter powering most of the plug/socket points. Whenever the power goes off, I can see my CRT TV and internet modem getting rebooted. Some times the CRT TV does reboot, but not always. Where as the modem gets rebooted always. So I see two reasons for this.
1. Some equipment's power units are very sensitive to the PAUSE (as in the case of my modem)
2. Connected equipments can reboot if the load on the inverter is slightly higher as the inverter's PAUSE time is sort of proportional to the load (as in the case of my CRT TV). What I have seen is that my CRT TV reboots whenever there is a load. I haven't seen the problem for my another TV (plasma) though.

So in your case, either of the above reasons or both could be true. Also, Onkyo TX-NR818 can draw more power from your inverter. Do you see the same problem with your TV as well ? Even if not, then it means your TV power unit is not that much sensitive. Any way, nothing to worry about your AV receiver and it is a gem.

 

[Kittu]

Please do not power your AVR with inverter. Use mains with proper voltage stabilization. I do not see the absolute must kind of AVR usage during a power cut.

 

[shanmune]

New inverters have a UPS mode. Switch to that for fast change over. Also, do not connect stabilizer to inverter out. Overload may be another reason for the tripping.

Hi baijuxavior,

Just a curious question. Why do you say that stabilizer shouldn't be connected to inverter out ? My personal opinion is that TV/AVR shouldn't be powered by inverters. So my personal preference would be to connect TV/AVR with non-inverter sockets through a stabilizer. But for others who wish to watch/enjoy TV/AVR even during the power cut, they might prefer connecting their sets to the inverter backed sockets. In that case, do you still recommend not using the stabilizer ? If that is the case, don't we expose the TV/AVR to voltage fluctuations (when the power supply is on) ?

 

[elangoas]

Thank you all for your inputs....I was worried if my receiver had a problem...It was brand new & juz 2 days old....Now relieved...

As you all suggested, i will check the back side of the APC inverter to switch between UPS & Inverter mode..I will try this & update if i still come across this problem....

 

[elangoas]

Please do not power your AVR with inverter. Use mains with proper voltage stabilization. I do not see the absolute must kind of AVR usage during a power cut.

Hi Kittu,

I don't use the receiver when there is a powercut.... In tamil nadu other than Chennai city, there is a minimum of 10 Hrs power cut per day....So watching TV on inverter becomes inevitable...:sad:

The idea is to turnoff (Standby mode) the receiver as soon as i hear the beep sound when there is power cut...I have been following this procedure for more than an year....I haven't experienced this on the receivers that i have previously owned.... (Marantz SR 5200 & Onkyo HT-R 540)....

 

[Kittu]

The AVR might be demanding more power than your inverter can supply. U can turn of all your stuff and connect only the AVR to inverter point direct and play with MCB to simulate the power outage to see.


PS : "Such stunts should be performed only when you have lot of backup money"

 

[elangoas]

There is absolutely no problem with your AVR. It looks like your inverter has a bit more PAUSE time when the power goes off. Even I have this problem, but in a different way. I also have a 850 VA inverter powering most of the plug/socket points. Whenever the power goes off, I can see my CRT TV and internet modem getting rebooted. Some times the CRT TV does reboot, but not always. Where as the modem gets rebooted always. So I see two reasons for this.
1. Some equipment's power units are very sensitive to the PAUSE (as in the case of my modem)
2. Connected equipments can reboot if the load on the inverter is slightly higher as the inverter's PAUSE time is sort of proportional to the load (as in the case of my CRT TV). What I have seen is that my CRT TV reboots whenever there is a load. I haven't seen the problem for my another TV (plasma) though.

So in your case, either of the above reasons or both could be true. Also, Onkyo TX-NR818 can draw more power from your inverter. Do you see the same problem with your TV as well ? Even if not, then it means your TV power unit is not that much sensitive. Any way, nothing to worry about your AV receiver and it is a gem.

Thanks for the detailed explanation....Am able to understand now...

My 46 inch Sony LCD TV works perfectly on inverter....

 

[shanmune]

The AVR might be demanding more power than your inverter can supply. U can turn of all your stuff and connect only the AVR to inverter point direct and play with MCB to simulate the power outage to see.


PS : "Such stunts should be performed only when you have lot of backup money"

With such frequent power cuts in Chennai, we need not even do such stunts. Those stunts will be automatically done for elongoas by the state electricity board. :lol:

 

[elangoas]

The AVR might be demanding more power than your inverter can supply. U can turn of all your stuff and connect only the AVR to inverter point direct and play with MCB to simulate the power outage to see.


PS : "Such stunts should be performed only when you have lot of backup money"

True...@ any point of time, i use only 1 fan & 1 tube light (28W) in the night..In the day it is only 1 fan....

My TV is around 200W power consumption max....Receiver is around 720W of power consumption...

is that too much of load on inverter for few seconds/Max a minute?

As i said earlier, i wouldn't risk myself running my AVR on inverter/UPS mode....

I juz want to make sure that my receiver is properly turned-off rather than abruptly getting turned off due to power cut...

 

[shanmune]

True...@ any point of time, i use only 1 fan & 1 tube light (28W) in the night..In the day it is only 1 fan....

My TV is around 200W power consumption max....Receiver is around 720W of power consumption...

is that too much of load on inverter for few seconds/Max a minute?

As i said earlier, i wouldn't risk myself running my AVR on inverter/UPS mode....

I juz want to make sure that my receiver is properly turned-off rather than abruptly getting turned off due to power cut...

I understand your point and your concern in having a graceful shutdown rather than having an abrupt shutdown. My personal chice would be to directly connect the AVR with the main power socket (not backed by inverter) and protect it through a surge protector+stabilizer combination. Again, this is only my personal choice.

Now coming to the power requirements, your inverter should be working almost close to 100% of it's total capacity with both AVR and TV working. Even your subwoofer should be drawing more power to make your inverter almost loaded to full. I am going to use a simple and very theortical calculation.

Your Inverter power: 850 VA (This is absolute power)
Real power consumed by your inverter: (850 x power_factor)
What should be the power factor ? It is impossible to find the actual (as most of the equipments are non-linear loads). So we can assume it to be 0.8 (just a rough assumption)
Real power that can be produced by your inverter: (850 x 0.8) = 680 watts.

TV power requirement: 200 watts
AVR power requirement: 720w (as per the spec)
Actual power requirement of your AVR (with moderate volume levels): 300 to 400 watts (keep 350 watts roughly)
Subwoofer: 50 watts (roughly)
Total power requirement: 200 + 350 + 50 = 600 watts

The above figures are very rough calculations. So the power requirement of 600 watts loads your inverter almost close to 100%.

Apart from that, there are other factors which might make your AV receiver reboot. For example, your Av receivers will have few capacitors connected at it's power input side and generally they can provide the required energy during the small interval where is no power supply (PAUSE), but how much energy it can provide depends on the capacitor rating/design used by your AVR. In my case, though my modem consumes only less power, it reboots always. For 100% confirmation, probably you can try what kittu suggested with running AVR alone in stereo mode (with all other load switched off). Even other wise, onkyo receivers are generally very power hungry and so nothing to worry.

 

[baijuxavior]

Hi baijuxavior,

Just a curious question. Why do you say that stabilizer shouldn't be connected to inverter out ? My personal opinion is that TV/AVR shouldn't be powered by inverters. So my personal preference would be to connect TV/AVR with non-inverter sockets through a stabilizer. But for others who wish to watch/enjoy TV/AVR even during the power cut, they might prefer connecting their sets to the inverter backed sockets. In that case, do you still recommend not using the stabilizer ? If that is the case, don't we expose the TV/AVR to voltage fluctuations (when the power supply is on) ?

When inverter or ups out is connected to stabilizer, the stabilizer will try to maintain the output voltage during a power out and while doing this it may draw more current from the inverter if a load is connected to the stab resulting in momentary overload which may harm the inverter. In other words, the stabilizer is also drawing current from the inverter as no stab is 100% efficient. A part of this energy is lost as heat and other noise. This reduces inverter backup time also.

You can connect the inverter to the stabilizer out to avoid this problem. But you should ensure that the stabilizer has enough VA to power the inverter in addition to other connected load. For example, I have connected my 1.2KVA ups to a 5KVA stabilizer. This is OK as the stab has enough juice to handle the ups with load. You could also use a line interactive ups which has built-in stabilizer. My UPS is LI and it works from 140V-270V. The UPS switches to battery only if the voltage is out side this range. This increases battery backup. The only problem is that these LI UPSs are not pure sine wave. They are usually quasi sinewave which is not suitable for inductive loads like fan.

 

[yahoo0212]

The PAUSE problem s slowly picking up...

 

[elangoas]

Thanks for all those who suggested some ideas...On my APC inverter,i changed it from Inverter mode to UPS mode... Even then the problem persists...:sad:

It shuts down for a second & then restarts again.....

An other thing i noticed, when i run the receiver in UPS mode (Juz before the power comes), the transition from UPS mode to direct power is without a glitch..

Any help here is highly appreciated...

(BTW i have an Exide Tubular battery rated 100Ah)..Should i have more Ah battery ???

 

[ghatgepatil]

Just like an air-conditioner, the AVR is drawing high current (higher than what your battery can supply) for a split of a second. For an AC it continues for a few minutes, not so for the AVR which gets sane in milli-seconds! But, such a thing is suicidal for such sensitive electronics. It is a lot better to have the equipment shut-off, even abruptly. At least it shan't have to face a scarcity of energy even though for very short period. So, no lower capacity inverter/UPS on the AVR line, if you HAVE to put one. Else, run from direct supply only.

 

[elangoas]

Many thanx again for all your suggestions....

I got hold of an V Guard Crystal Slender 600 from my friend.... UPS | Online UPS, Line Interactive UPS :: V-Guard Products

Connected my AVR to the UPS directly which in turn is connected to stabilizier which again is connected to the plug point which is backed up by APC inverter...

Now the AVR doesn't restart automatically when there is power outage :yahoo:....I switch off the AVR manually within few seconds of power outage...So it is shutdown gracefully...

Hope this is safe as i am not aware of these completely.... Plz let me know if there is anything that i can improve...