True Wireless - the new confusion

[Glyde71]

First it was the wired ones .. then the bluetooth with the small wire round the ... and now these rascals - TWS or True Wireless...

over the years I've bought around 8-10 wired in-ears of various grades, from run-of-the-mill to studio pros (senn, beyer, bose, shure) the lot.
Around 2-3 BTs - Samsungs, Jabra and couple others recently.

The only ones i never i've been reasonably sure of my decision have been my overhead cans - have about 4 solid pairs. with a few good headphone amps.

Y'all must be thinking of the hindi proverb - Nalaayak ka busta bhaari.. and you'd be right... its the consequence of poor advise or not taking any in some cases.

I don't want to go down this binge buying spiral on this one.
Today there is plethora of these to choose from - headfonezone, amazon etc. are awash with them.

The confusion - what is criteria to judge - which makes most sense to buy. I've watched several reviews of several models. I've sampled quite a few myself. some of the sub 8000 sounded better than some 20K plus ones. Invariably most reputable reviewers say that connectivity, sound quality, built quality, battery are the key factors, in that order. I'm quite lost on what is good price to pay and what constitutes 'good' TWS.

want to get out of this abyss..

 

[jaiwant_alex]

Nice post ! can completely underatand where you are coming from, having gone through a number of in-ears. Since ive lost/misplaced so many of them its perhaps better that i have tried mostly the budget end, with the most expensive ones being Klipsch.
Have found a way out of the "abyss" on the very sensible advice of my better half who has correctly observed that a scatterbrain like me would be losing/misplacing a pair of TWS every week !
I have also found Bluetooth in general to be a very fussy,glitchy and inconsistent interface.
Thought there are generic products avaialbe quite cheap, im willimg to wait this out for the hype around the product to settle down and the prices to reach saner levels. 25k for Sennheiser Momemtum is bonkers in my opinion, specially if theres a risk that one of them goes missing .....

 

[dr_rocket]

First it was the wired ones .. then the bluetooth with the small wire round the ... and now these rascals - TWS or True Wireless...

over the years I've bought around 8-10 wired in-ears of various grades, from run-of-the-mill to studio pros (senn, beyer, bose, shure) the lot.
Around 2-3 BTs - Samsungs, Jabra and couple others recently.

The only ones i never i've been reasonably sure of my decision have been my overhead cans - have about 4 solid pairs. with a few good headphone amps.

Y'all must be thinking of the hindi proverb - Nalaayak ka busta bhaari.. and you'd be right... its the consequence of poor advise or not taking any in some cases.

I don't want to go down this binge buying spiral on this one.
Today there is plethora of these to choose from - headfonezone, amazon etc. are awash with them.

The confusion - what is criteria to judge - which makes most sense to buy. I've watched several reviews of several models. I've sampled quite a few myself. some of the sub 8000 sounded better than some 20K plus ones. Invariably most reputable reviewers say that connectivity, sound quality, built quality, battery are the key factors, in that order. I'm quite lost on what is good price to pay and what constitutes 'good' TWS.

want to get out of this abyss..

RHA trueconnect, safe bet

 

[Glyde71]

Nice post ! can completely underatand where you are coming from, having gone through a number of in-ears. Since ive lost/misplaced so many of them its perhaps better that i have tried mostly the budget end, with the most expensive ones being Klipsch.
Have found a way out of the "abyss" on the very sensible advice of my better half who has correctly observed that a scatterbrain like me would be losing/misplacing a pair of TWS every week !
I have also found Bluetooth in general to be a very fussy,glitchy and inconsistent interface.
Thought there are generic products avaialbe quite cheap, im willimg to wait this out for the hype around the product to settle down and the prices to reach saner levels. 25k for Sennheiser Momemtum is bonkers in my opinion, specially if theres a risk that one of them goes missing .....

I coming around to the same thought - wait a bit. have a shortlist of the ones that make most sense.... the value-for-money factor is gonna decide it for me

RHA trueconnect, safe bet

aah ... i'll surely give it a listen .. saw one going for around 10K on headfonezone... may drop as well taking into account that many of them are now going through a price correction...bose was down to 13K a while a ago ..but only briefly ...

 

[superczar]

Cross-posting from another thread - My view on wireless headphones I have + adding 1 that I sold off

Jabra Elite 65t -
Like it for the decent SQ
hate it for the garbage call quality (at the receiver end- gone through 2 of them and the microphone/noise cancellation) is terrible
Gets uncomfortable after an hour or so


Anker Sound Core Liberty -
Like it as it came cheap and is really good for the price
On the flip side, The mids are weak.. call quality is worse than garbage..
Gets uncomfortable within 30 minutes or so

Airpods 1 and 2
Daily drivers - Love them both for the comfort (this is really really important to me, it doesn't hurt my canals like IEMs and I can comfortably use them for hours)
The SQ is acceptably good , call quality is excellent, flipping between devices is not a game of guessing which device it actually connected to when you switch it on

On the flip side, they are no good when in a noisy environment like a flight- too much background noise comes in

Plantronics Backbeat Go3

My 2nd fav

Very comfortable for an IEM (though not as comfy as airpods) , excellent SQ - probably the best of the lot I have
Call quality is acceptable though not as good as airpods
On the flip side, it is not true wireless although the connecting wires are rather unobtrusive

Given a choice to do it again. I'd probably pick the airpods 2 and Plantronics for the specific use cases they serve

Soundsport Free

Although I don't have this anymore, on 2nd thoughts I'd have retained it over the Jabra
The SQ was good and the fit was more comfy than the Jabra.
I found a ready buyer hence sold it as I preferred the comfort of the AP over this.
Hard to say if the SQ of the Plantronics is better or this as I didn't have them at the same time.

My biggest bugbear with all BT/TWS headphones (other than AirPods) is this
In my use case, I need them linked to multiple devices and need the ability to flip between them as needed (2 phones, tablet, laptop and ATV)
With all BT sets, you need to disconnect from the device it was last connected to before connecting to the one you want to.
Half the time I don't remember what device it connected to last so I need to go on a wild goose chase checking the BT settings on all devices till I find the culprit.
The Jabra can do two but good luck if the current device is the 3rd one in sequence
With the AP, I don't need to do that as it will actively disconnect from the current device if you ask another paired device to connect to it
This may seem like a small thing but makes a huge usability difference

 

[surfatwork]

Have a Bose tws. Call quality is excellent. Bluetooth connection stability and range is excellent too. Battery life very good. Music is reasonable.

 

[Glyde71]

Have a Bose tws. Call quality is excellent. Bluetooth connection stability and range is excellent too. Battery life very good. Music is reasonable.

The bose sound sport is quite good. have tried its wireless version. was very impressive. built quality was that of a premium product. no wonder it was priced as such. if its TWS sounds just as good then it sure is a beast.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

Airpods 1 and 2
Daily drivers - Love them both for the comfort (this is really really important to me, it doesn't hurt my canals like IEMs and I can comfortably use them for hours)
The SQ is acceptably good , call quality is excellent, flipping between devices is not a game of guessing which device it actually connected to when you switch it on

On the flip side, they are no good when in a noisy environment like a flight- too much background noise comes in

Did you go for the AirPods Pro that came later? Because they'd take care of the only grouse you had with the APs - background noise. If you did, wonder how has been your experience? Please share.

 

[superczar]

Did you go for the AirPods Pro that came later? Because they'd take care of the only grouse you had with the APs - background noise. If you did, wonder how has been your experience? Please share.

Hey @sachinchavan 15865 .. long time!

Yes, I currently have all 3 variants i.e. the AP, AP Pro and the AP Max
The AP is a decent and comfortable earphone where you pay more for the convenience and less for the SQ.
The SQ is not bad, not particularly good either - I presume one could find far cheaper earphones with same SQ although usability and call quality is another story.

The AP Pro improves significantly on the SQ and thats the one I would recommend to most folks. There is an all round improvement across the lows, mids & highs and the noise isolation is quite splendid.
The added advantage is that the AP Pro (and the google pixel series) are the only TWSs that don’t make me feel uncomfortable due to some sort of pressure equalization vent they have .. Some people (including I) feel very uncomfrtable in other TWSs due to the positive pressure they create on the ear canal side.
I think one can find sub 10K TWSs that can comfortably compete on SQ with the AP pro but lose out on comfort and convenience.

The AP Max is a major step jump on SQ but nowhere as comfortable as the AP Pro (or vanilla AP)
As much as I like the SQ and also the Noise cancellation improvements, I can’t use it for extended periods the way I can use the AP Pros.

Hope this helps

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

Hey @sachinchavan 15865 .. long time!

Yes, I currently have all 3 variants i.e. the AP, AP Pro and the AP Max
The AP is a decent and comfortable earphone where you pay more for the convenience and less for the SQ.
The SQ is not bad, not particularly good either - I presume one could find far cheaper earphones with same SQ although usability and call quality is another story.

The AP Pro improves significantly on the SQ and thats the one I would recommend to most folks. There is an all round improvement across the lows, mids & highs and the noise isolation is quite splendid.
The added advantage is that the AP Pro (and the google pixel series) are the only TWSs that don’t make me feel uncomfortable due to some sort of pressure equalization vent they have .. Some people (including I) feel very uncomfrtable in other TWSs due to the positive pressure they create on the ear canal side.
I think one can find sub 10K TWSs that can comfortably compete on SQ with the AP pro but lose out on comfort and convenience.

The AP Max is a major step jump on SQ but nowhere as comfortable as the AP Pro (or vanilla AP)
As much as I like the SQ and also the Noise cancellation improvements, I can’t use it for extended periods the way I can use the AP Pros.

Hope this helps

Hi @superczar … yeah, I’ve been less active here off late. Nice hearing from you.

Many thanks for the detailed feedback on the AirPods range. You are right. I was doing some research over the past weekend and found a few (supposedly) audiophile options under 10k - like from Lypertek, Final and Nothing. There might be some more. But most of them are poor in call quality (esp. how your voice is heard on the other side). I guess this is where the Apple products shine. Even with noise cancellation the voice sounds natural. And they also offer some unique features if one has more than one Apple gadget (I have a few).

Based on this, and your feeeback, the Pro seems to be the one to go for. The venting of pressure you pointed out seems an important factor for me. I find it difficult to wear my Etymotic IEMs (what pure SQ!) for more than say half an hour. The Pro also have a better fit than the AP, which will help.

I am lookimg for something that’s more mobile. So not considering the Max.

One question - when noise cancellation is activated, how does your own voice sound to you? Does the earphone feedback a part of your voice (also called side-tone) to you? Do you sound to yourself like how you’d when you speak directly on the phone, or muffled/distant (to what extent)?

Also, though as you’ve said, one can get better SQ in lower priced phones than AP Pro, how good is the AP Pro’s sound quality in absolute terms (without considering price)? Does it, as an audiophile, engage you enough? More specifically, is it sufficiently balanced, dynamic and clear? Is it say, at least 80% of similarly priced audiophile IEMs on these counts? Does the sound quality make you forget that your are using TWS, or it constantly reminds you of it when you are intently listening to music (say during travel etc when you can focus on it)?

 

[superczar]

Hi @superczar … yeah, I’ve been less active here off late. Nice hearing from you.

Many thanks for the detailed feedback on the AirPods range. You are right. I was doing some research over the past weekend and found a few (supposedly) audiophile options under 10k - like from Lypertek, Final and Nothing. There might be some more. But most of them are poor in call quality (esp. how your voice is heard on the other side). I guess this is where the Apple products shine. Even with noise cancellation the voice sounds natural. And they also offer some unique features if one has more than one Apple gadget (I have a few).

Based on this, and your feeeback, the Pro seems to be the one to go for. The venting of pressure you pointed out seems an important factor for me. I find it difficult to wear my Etymotic IEMs (what pure SQ!) for more than say half an hour. The Pro also have a better fit than the AP, which will help.

I am lookimg for something that’s more mobile. So not considering the Max.

One question - when noise cancellation is activated, how does your own voice sound to you? Does the earphone feedback a part of your voice (also called side-tone) to you? Do you sound to yourself like how you’d when you speak directly on the phone, or muffled/distant (to what extent)?

Also, though as you’ve said, one can get better SQ in lower priced phones than AP Pro, how good is the AP Pro’s sound quality in absolute terms (without considering price)? Does it, as an audiophile, engage you enough? More specifically, is it sufficiently balanced, dynamic and clear? Is it say, at least 80% of similarly priced audiophile IEMs on these counts? Does the sound quality make you forget that your are using TWS, or it constantly reminds you of it when you are intently listening to music (say during travel etc when you can focus on it)?

NC behaves differently when on call and when listening to music.
There is some active feedback enabled (for own voice) while on call - and while I wont call it perfectly natural, its not disconcerting to the extent i have seen on others.

As for SQ in absolute terms, it would be hard for me to say as I am no expert on this.
Comparing with other wiress headphones I have, I would say its about at par or just a notch below the Bose QC III

I won't call the SQ phenomenal by any means - yet I dont think its an overprice product..
Largely because all other IEMs I have used focus unerringly on SQ but at the cost of other variables (sealed fit that makes me feel mildly claustrophobic, bad mic quality etc) and even the best SQ is of no use if one can't use the device for other reasons.

AP Pro OTOH , at least for me, presents a very well balanced option with a good mix of comfort /egonomics, call quality and reasonable SQ - so the money spent on it gets used in practical day-to-day terms rather than just being a theoretical exercise in seeking the best possible SQ - which gets used during testing but sits in the desk after that

 

[msankadi]

I have tried the TWS and wired ones...I have settled on using bluetooth neckbands as a very happy compromise...no jhanjhat...days worth of battery life...gets out of my way (around my neck) when I am not using it and then just use whenever I need....can keep them connected without any real battery drop to my phone all day too given the bt 5.3 or 5.2 versions....

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

NC behaves differently when on call and when listening to music.
There is some active feedback enabled (for own voice) while on call - and while I wont call it perfectly natural, its not disconcerting to the extent i have seen on others.

As for SQ in absolute terms, it would be hard for me to say as I am no expert on this.
Comparing with other wiress headphones I have, I would say its about at par or just a notch below the Bose QC III

I won't call the SQ phenomenal by any means - yet I dont think its an overprice product..
Largely because all other IEMs I have used focus unerringly on SQ but at the cost of other variables (sealed fit that makes me feel mildly claustrophobic, bad mic quality etc) and even the best SQ is of no use if one can't use the device for other reasons.

AP Pro OTOH , at least for me, presents a very well balanced option with a good mix of comfort /egonomics, call quality and reasonable SQ - so the money spent on it gets used in practical day-to-day terms rather than just being a theoretical exercise in seeking the best possible SQ - which gets used during testing but sits in the desk after that

@superczar thanks for the elaborate reply. It provides me the necessary feedback on AP Pro. I now need to consider my use cases and decide.

I have tried the TWS and wired ones...I have settled on using bluetooth neckbands as a very happy compromise...no jhanjhat...days worth of battery life...gets out of my way (around my neck) when I am not using it and then just use whenever I need....can keep them connected without any real battery drop to my phone all day too given the bt 5.3 or 5.2 versions....

I’ve considered the neckbands - they are an interesting solution. But the idea of keeping something on my neck somehow doesn’t feel comfortable to me. The TWS is indeed an alluring concept. Only I don’t think the technologies have matured enough yet. I also need to consider the seamless integration with Apple devices (there are no Apple neckbands).

 

[msankadi]

I also need to consider the seamless integration with Apple devices (there are no Apple neckbands).

True that but the main point of neckbands is just simplicity to work via BT...I dont know about the high-end neckbands though as I still use the Sony neckband I bought 3 years ago and never felt the need to change it....though I have bought realme buds wireless 3 for my wife recently and that too works fine, I was actually quite surprised by the sound quality it can deliver

For your use case though TWS might be better...curious to know why you feel that tech hasnt matured fully? I think the Sony xm5 or sennheiser momentum 3 ones are both steller TWS with everything you would need...again dont know if apple makes them worse due to apple restrictions...you can check out the reviews from Darko

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

If you have Apple devices, then AirPods are the one to go. It’s decent. There can be cheaper Chinese wired earphones which may sound better than them in terms of absolute finesse, but AirPods Pro 2 is decent, but convenient.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

For your use case though TWS might be better...curious to know why you feel that tech hasnt matured fully?

For one, the sound quality. The challenge of including active drivers in a small size means they are still not near wired buds in terms of sound. Secondly, call quality is still a challenge for even the best - none of them give the other side the natural and clear call hearing as speaking directly into a phone does - AirPod Pro are best here, but even they sound soft.

I believe in a couple of years these would get perfected, given this product category has become mainstream and enough investment must be going into their development.

If you have Apple devices, then AirPods are the one to go. It’s decent. There can be cheaper Chinese wired earphones which may sound better than them in terms of absolute finesse, but AirPods Pro 2 is decent, but convenient.

I agree. AirPods Pro wouid give the best possible overall experience to an Apple devices user. However, putting 24 grand on a product that still leaves you wanting on sound quality (in comparison with what one is used to even with 3-4K wired buds) is a difficult decison. Especially since my music and call usage would be 50:50.

Probably I could continue with my earphones (Etymotic does a good job) for music and get TWS buds below 10K that give the best call quality for calling purpose.

 

[msankadi]

If you have Apple devices, then AirPods are the one to go. It’s decent. There can be cheaper Chinese wired earphones which may sound better than them in terms of absolute finesse, but AirPods Pro 2 is decent, but convenient.

But the sound quality of aiprpods 2 pro is pathetic compared to Sony xm5 or sennheiser momentum 4. I would use the phone speaker instead of buying a 20k airpod earbuds for its good microphones and buy a good sound quality TWS.

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

But the sound quality of aiprpods 2 pro is pathetic compared to Sony xm5 or sennheiser momentum 4. I would use the phone speaker instead of buying a 20k airpod earbuds for its good microphones and buy a good sound quality TWS.

Seems like that’s your subjective opinion. See what rtings has to say. You can check how they measure in the same page if that interests you. For me, tws category is not an audiophile category product, but having decent sound is a bare minimum and for me, it ticks that box. But on the top, Spatial Audio with head tracking is amazing. I have 2 iPhones, an iPad, an Apple TV and a MacBook. It’s just seemlessly connect from one to another and that alone is worth it.

 

[msankadi]

Seems like that’s your subjective opinion. See what rtings has to say. You can check how they measure in the same page if that interests you. For me, tws category is not an audiophile category product, but having decent sound is a bare minimum and for me, it ticks that box. But on the top, Spatial Audio with head tracking is amazing. I have 2 iPhones, an iPad, an Apple TV and a MacBook. It’s just seemlessly connect from one to another and that alone is worth it.

It doesn't sound like a review that is comparing anything on sound just a description of sound coming out of various TWS. No comparison. As I have quoted above you can listen to darko audio or other you tubers who are audiophile reviewers.

If you feel you are willing to pay 20k for seemless switching (that other TWS aren't able to do on apple due to restrictions placed by the manufacturer) then I guess it's your subjective opinion of "value".

On my android s23 ultra even a 1.5k TWS or neckband by realme supports multi device support and "seamless switching"

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

As I have quoted above you can listen to darko audio or other you tubers who are audiophile reviewers.

So that’s where you are coming from! Or you actually had the momentum and the Sony and you had compared it against the AirPods Pro 2?