upgraditis. Amp/ Speakers. What to make of my options

[sound_cycle]

Hi,

I am planning. For a while now. However, this is all still more from the khayali pulao department than the forumulation of and actual concrete actionable plan. So, please bear with me if I don't implement the advice I get sometime real soon. And if/ when it happens, it will have to be stepwise and gradual.

Now I am happy with my set up. My biggest problem is my room. I have got it to work. more or less. But, I had to get a 55" slab of 4K glass and plonk it between my speakers. (price to pay for WFA and support kya karen). Like I said a sentence or two back, I am reasonably happy with my set up.

So what do I want now? The sound goal I hear in my head was set by a Grundig LP playing system my neighbors had. Very long ago. The sounds of cymbals going TSssssssss, the kick from the drum pedal going straight to pit of stomach, and Karen Carpenter singing Superstar is seared into my brain from when I was 12 or 13.

I am realistic, I don't think my hearing is good above 14khz any longer and my job does not get me a house with a large hall and lawn, half way up a hill. My budget is finite. abt 1.5L initially.(I am listening to that Carpenters track on iTunes right now, the instruments that go with the chorus are somewhat muddy, I'd like to go back to that only yesterday moment in 1976/7 and throw my sadness away)

Now my efforts with my room and rig have got me a LEDR over test that passes but has a flat plateau, and slopes off a little rapidly one one side. I've got this notion that moving to a full range single driver will reward me the better imaging, mid range (and that bit of missing magic in Karen Carpenters vocals). And if it had something substantial for the bass ... (I no longer listen to Welcome to the Jungle at volume, tool old for that and it does not interest me that much)

I have heard of the Bhaava (from drkrack). I've read every review there is on the 'net. I've written to Jacob George. Setting up for a trip to Kochi for a listen, hopefully soon.

A few years back, I started off thinking amps are wire with gain and all DACs sound the same. Now I wonder whether the PM 6005 will do ? And therefore worry whether getting something much better than the Z5 will suck me deeper down the dark rabbit hole.

I was thinking Ragnarok should I jump down that (I would have to get Rag with the recent tax gouge from headphonezone). And while I squinted into the darkness, Jason Stoddard and Schiit come up with the Vidar. Which means (arithmetically) Freya + 2 x Vidar tops Rag, and with a remote at that. (Khayali pulao hai, pass the Spanish kesar).

Or there is a Nait 5si that can be sourced right here in the banner above.

What would be good, upgrade path ? Realistically, it would have to be a year or more between these two acquisitions. And there is always the danger that maybe other demands bite and swallow that little fund, I am organizing.

Speakers ? There is the Bhaava. Or there is a Dali Ikon II Mark 6 with the ribbon tweeters on f/s (the wife will have conniptions with Rethm in the room even if the Bhaava looks less radical than the Saadhna. As you can tell she has not been consulted)

Amp ? SET and Vidars as monoblock ?? (I don't even know enough and there is no way of getting them in MBM yet) so I was thinking Nait 5Si or Rag

My current thinking was influenced by my email exchange with Jacob George, ie. getting the speakers first. and maybe upgrading electronics later.

so what does hfv think of my choices and possible upgrade path ?

ciao
gr

 

[mpw]

you might want to spend some time at Lyrita Audio as well besides Rethm.

Most floor standers need space around them as well to sound their best.

think system wise and not in bits and pieces.

The market is dynamic and speakers / models change from year to year. Most of the time - marketing adds most of the gloss and the confusion.

If you are unhappy with your current system - which is why the itch comes up - sell it off as a whole and collect the funds and invest in 1 go.

A piecemeal approach rarely gives the burrrp that a heavy meal does ..



PS : the 55inch 4k glass is an unwelcome sight to most audiophiles and i agree and appreciate

PS2 : I heard a fantastic headphone system recently and if you have space issues at home - you must consider a great headphone system and dunk the stereo rig - maybe a possibility.

regards

 

[raghupb]

"Speakers ? There is the Bhaava. Or there is a Dali Ikon II Mark 6 with the ribbon tweeters on f/s (the wife will have conniptions with Rethm in the room even if the Bhaava looks less radical than the Saadhna. As you can tell she has not been consulted) "

As MPW says, once you start lots of changes come in.
Borrow a pre-power or an IA from local FMs (if possible) and hear it out in your room.

As for WAF, careful buddy, while you are upgrading components, she may get the urge to upgrade you

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[arunkvivek]

As for WAF, careful buddy, while you are upgrading components, she may get the urge to upgrade you

Cheers,
Raghu

:lol: It has been a while that I saw a post from you Raghu.

 

[JayaRaa]

by your writing above, clearly you are headed towards full range speaker direction. as you have rightly contacted rethm for demo, kindly take the demo, talk to mr. jacob on not only his speakers but also partnering electronics as he is the best person to provide insight into what amps will work with his speakers, cabling and so on. take the wife along also so that she is also able to see the speakers in the flesh as that will be also very important in future decision making process. after that you will be better placed to decide how to proceed. do also take pictures of your room to show mr. jacob on where you intend to place the speakers.
good luck & best wishes

 

[square_wave]

Karen Carpenter singing Superstar is seared into my brain from when I was 12 or 13.

This will be tough to achieve. You were relatively new to the world then ? There is a sense of wonder when you are a child. This is taken away from you as you age.unless you are one who takes care of this by never really growing up ( like many of us )

Also, did you listen to LPs those days ? If so, try and get back to LPs if only for those abums that you cherish. It is not a technology debate, but an argument to stay away from the mastering normalization and resultant dynamics loss that goes into digital for many of those specific albums. Information is well documented all over the web if you care to do your r&d.

From what you have written, it seems that you have not researched well enough to understand which camp of hifi you want to move into. This is the most important thing with the hifi hobby. Overall goals with the sound you want to achieve needs to be figured out first. Try not to look at one component per se. Look at a package that will deliver the sound you want. Right from source down to speakers. Travel around and listen to different systems and if something tugs your heart, replicate that system completely or have a conversation with the person who owns that system and figure out options.

For eg; There is an omega speaker and an almarro amp for sale on the forum right now. I have heard that almarro works great with omega. I am not sure about the exact component complexities. Someone should check it out !! If the amp / spk combo works, then that is a heart tugger system right there !!

 

[sound_cycle]

you might want to spend some time at Lyrita Audio as well besides Rethm.

Most floor standers need space around them as well to sound their best.

think system wise and not in bits and pieces.
<snip>
PS : the 55inch 4k glass is an unwelcome sight to most audiophiles and i agree and appreciate

PS2 : I heard a fantastic headphone system recently and if you have space issues at home - you must consider a great headphone system and dunk the stereo rig - maybe a possibility.

That is something I wanted to do - visit Lyrita Audio - when I was in Delhi for a week last year. Looks like I will be in Delhi next month and I am hoping I will get the time this time around.

The son suggested that I try out Soundmagic E10C which ended up with me getting the e80 (the first earphone that fit correctly !). Moving into headphones is one way to play the game and defeat many demons, but I am too attached to the idea of listening to speakers just yet.

Borrow a pre-power or an IA from local FMs (if possible) and hear it out in your room.

As for WAF, careful buddy, while you are upgrading components, she may get the urge to upgrade you

And that bit just happened, thanks to drkrack who very kindly dropped by earlier this evening with several bits of his rig and made that possible.

As to upgrading an old fart with wierd obsessions about sound and cycles, I guess it should be easy enough, but to my good fortune she has not bothered, for the past 25 years

take the wife along also so that she is also able to see the speakers in the flesh as that will be also very important in future decision making process. after that you will be better placed to decide how to proceed. do also take pictures of your room to show mr. jacob on where you intend to place the speakers.

Yes. Both very good points. Will do. If/ when

Also, did you listen to LPs those days ? <snip>

From what you have written, it seems that you have not researched well enough to understand which camp of hifi you want to move into. This is the most important thing with the hifi hobby. Overall goals with the sound you want to achieve needs to be figured out first. Try not to look at one component per se. Look at a package that will deliver the sound you want. Right from source down to speakers. Travel around and listen to different systems and if something tugs your heart, replicate that system completely or have a conversation with the person who owns that system and figure out options.

For eg; There is an omega speaker and an almarro amp for sale on the forum right now. I have heard that almarro works great with omega. I am not sure about the exact component complexities. Someone should check it out !! If the amp / spk combo works, then that is a heart tugger system right there !!

sq_w Radio mostly, LPs when some adult would deign to play something for me. A friends dad had a Grundig 8 track spool to spool, a neighbor had a really nice sounding system and there was a large collection of LPs and a couple of systems at the officers club. Later cassettes I see the point you make but I have not gone and heard a nice system playing analog audio for fear of what it could do to me/ my wallet.

You are right. I have to figure out things. Reading up is ofc a very small bit of figuring out what/ how. This evening was interesting and illuminating in that context.

While I process and listen and figure out. And realize that maybe there is a lot that I have not heard in my DAC/ speakers, I will talk of GoT S7.

Because like the Hound I stared into the hearth at the behest of Thoros of Myr and saw that my speakers are capable of opening up to a higher power.

Thoros of Myr being essayed by drkrack. The fire by a pre-amp with two valves in it. Feeding a Class D solid state amp.

More on that later.

thanks all

ciao
gr

 

[sound_cycle]

Hi

or does this work

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JLAFnJRaDRbHt3wz1

ciao
gr

 

[mpw]

so now the tweeter is above ear level ???

can you put up a straight picture in natural light ??

 

[sound_cycle]

so now the tweeter is above ear level ???

can you put up a straight picture in natural light ??

Deep sigh. after all my low key lighting "effort". Will do that

I did not reposition. The tweeter is at ear level, when seated.

ciao
gr

 

[sound_cycle]

Hi,

A most surprising comment from my mother in law, after listening to my music for about 30 seconds. "That sounds like what Nats had."

I have not seen that rig, but it was not the average gelf returnee brings back 2-in 1, far from it. From pics and descriptions it seems to be have been a proper rackful of Sansui gear with tower speakers with a cassette deck and a LP. No idea of what amp - tubes or SS etc.

Most surprising because she has not commented on my music/ sound, though she has music on her brain (and a PhD on that too) and that she should compare it, favorably, to an analog system.

So what changed ?

The sound stage is wider. the phantom image is tighter (and it was decent to begin with). strings are tauter and plucked. bass is heavier. I don't note any changes in voices. Tablas sound much better. It is like a hungover band collectively shook its head and started playing enjoyable music vigorously again. It's all more dynamic and livelier, definitely more air. Level matched (kinda), sighted (yes), can I pick out the differences from my marantz - I'll bet you a yggy any one can.

So what was changed ?

drkrack very kindly came over. and we plugged in a pre-amp and a power amp. Also a DAC which I have not plugged in yet.

I was not expecting such a difference and such an enjoyable difference.

I will leave it to drkrack to talk about the equipment he loaned me to try out. Would you please Doc

Over samsosas and coffee we figured out

1) that my speakers have quite a bit unheard to offer
2) that changing the amplification in my rig is a necessary first step
3) that I simply do not have the space for the Bhaava.

He left his equipment behind with me for a few days. And I have used all available time to listen to my music. and it has been a rather enjoyable listen. (It is 12 AM and I have now been listening for about 5 hours, and am not bored). Thanks much drkrack. (BTW I recalibrated Dirac after you left and it sounds better without the bloated bass we had to live with in our listening session)

Next move. I'm thinking Saga and Vidar.

ciao
gr

 

[mpw]

wow.. thats quite a change in the mood soundcycle..

the saga abd vidar are priced sensibly . maybe you may want to look at the Freya as well - and get future proof

These are new products as well...

regards

 

[sound_cycle]

Hi

yes mpw, the joy of clarity - in sound and mind

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JLAFnJRaDRbHt3wz1

ciao
gr

 

[drkrack]

Thanks @Sound_cycle for those kind words, the pleasure is all mine. I thought of writing a separate review but I'll add it over here currently.

After trying a cheaper Chinese amps which did not turn out to be a great experience, I shouldn't have dared for another cheaper Chinese amp.
Details are on this thread.
http://www.hifivision.com/showthread.php?t=66797

I bought a ultra cheap tube preamp from AliExpress 5 months ago which costed around 3k at that time. I wasn't sure of its results & was testing my inclination for tube sound per se. Its a basic tube preamp with 6j1 Chinese tubes mounted on a iPhone box size cabinet.
Though the exact device(which I bought) seems unavailable on aliexpress, this one seems to be the same as mine.

2016 New Feixiang FX-AUDIO TUBE-01 DC12V 1A Bile Preamp Tube Amplifier Buffer 6J1 HIFI Audio Preamplifier preamplificador Silver

http://s.aliexpress.com/vUbMRBvy

I did not like the sound initially coupled with my Gungnir DAC and lot of jitter was present. Since my expectations weren't much I just didn't use it later on. Though I used to try it out occasionally. When @Sound_cycle visited my home it was coupled with Gungnir DAC, NAD C372 and Tannoy Revolution dc6. Both of us did not like it at the time 5 months ago, though I felt the Guitars were detailed after adding the tube preamp in the chain.

I bought a cheap Chinese Poweramp a month ago in spite of my horrible experience with Smsl AD18 amp. This is the link to the product which has similar specs of the product I bought as the one is currently unavailable.
SMSL A2 TDA7492 40W*2 Class d HiFi Pure Stereo Digital Audio Amplifier Input AUX/RCA Active Subwoofer LED Display EQ Setting

http://s.aliexpress.com/3EzAniAZ

I was using the tube Preamplifier paired with Norge Power amp and this TDA7492 chip based Class D amp. This has a power control and Volume rocker only.

The Listening : The pairing of the Tube amp and TDA7492 power amp is excellent. The power amp could drive most of the speakers I have, with remarkable ease and no necessity to crank the volume above 50% ever! It gets harsh and distorted after 70% of volume to remind you that You get what you pay for but seriously, other than for testing purposes you'd never need to raise the volume above 40%.
The Sound quality and resolution is simply unbelievable, its much better than all entry level stereo amp I've heard (I've heard quite a lot of them). In fact its better than my SR7010 AVR for stereo listening purposes. The details of instruments and their reverberation can be accurately made out every time. It needs slight warming up for 5 minutes and after there's no match. In fact I haven't heard such a musical combo off late. I've done most of the permutations and combinations in my gear with the preamp and power amp, the tube preamp changes the sound remarkably. Power amp is also a good one, but is bass heavy and distortions creep in, if connected directly to the CD player. The tube preamp makes up for lot of drawbacks with the power amp and they emerge as good combo for whatever music you throw at it. The combination sadly didn't like my Gungnir DAC as some jitter was easily audible, since it played well on @Sound_cycle bifrost I need to recheck it.

The vocals are crisp and the male voices just seem very lively and hitting you as if it were to be sung only for you. Arijit Singh sounds like a live performance right in front of you. Its very good for recent bollywood, pop, R&B and Rock genres where main music is composed of lively strings. We played a variety of music (luckily our music preferences do not match much) on it & we never felt the sound was lacking in any manner to be unlikable.

My wife was so impressed with the music that she told this is the best I've heard from your system recently. I just pointed towards my recently acquired expensive speakers and told her that they were making the difference. She nodded in assertion that it was a great buy. Luckily she didn't find out that what was making the actual difference. Jr@Sound_cycle aka his son (most keen ears of all) put it in a very precise manner, he told & I quote "if the musician were to listen back to his own composition in this system, he'd be happy that this is what it was supposed to be sounding like". You need to listen to believe it.

It's a more attacking signature or very aggressive representation of every part of the music, where in details of each and every instrument can be made out easily, which is more towards analog sounding, devoid of the digital glare you see with cheaper class D amps.

This is under 9k pre power combo which easily competes with systems costing ten times the budget. I'd recommend this to anyone looking for less than 50k budget where in you can put more money into buying a better pair of speakers. @Sound_cycle listening area is bit unique with adequate treatment so it was a great experience overall. After seeing his post on Upgrade confusion I decided to check with changing his electronics and see, I did carry the Norge Pre and Power combo along but we didn't hook it up.

Burn In: Mostly this explains the very abysmal performance of the preamp in the beginning, I'm not a great believer of burn in myself (I think of it as a consolation for the Hole you've burnt in your pocket with a gear that is not living up to the expectations). So the tube preamp has burned in to give a more adorable SQ.

Gear Used
Marantz CD 6006, Gungnir, Bifrost multibit, Win PC, Marantz SR 7010, MX cables, IPhone with apple music.

 

[sound_cycle]

maybe you may want to look at the Freya as well - and get future proof

Thought about it briefly.

Freya has extra inputs,outputs (I only need one)
XLR (which means moving from bimby to gungnir)
active preamp tube mode vs buffer
JFET mode (in addition to passive and valve buffer over the saga, would have been interesting to have)
128 step volume over 64 steps. (i can live without this)

it is also twice the cost of saga (which also means so much more opportunity to contribute to the national economy)

I have also encountered my first pre amp very recently. so that is another reason.

So Saga it is.

Ordered

ciao
gr

 

[mpw]

The saga continues....

 

[drkrack]

Thought about it briefly.

Freya has extra inputs,outputs (I only need one)
XLR (which means moving from bimby to gungnir)
active preamp tube mode vs buffer
JFET mode (in addition to passive and valve buffer over the saga, would have been interesting to have)
128 step volume over 64 steps. (i can live without this)

it is also twice the cost of saga (which also means so much more opportunity to contribute to the national economy)

I have also encountered my first pre amp very recently. so that is another reason.

So Saga it is.

Ordered

ciao
gr

That's a good analysis of the decision making towards Saga.
The most important thing which is missing here is Audition. Since lot many variables are involved in preamp selection, I'd suggest that you try to listen to it before buying. I was sceptical for the same reason; any of the Freya or Saga users can update us with their experience. Though my preference would be Freya for its options, I'd like to listen before I buy.

Since you are visiting Viren in coming week, I'd suggest you listen to his DHT line preamp and Tube power amp as well. The preamp is quite a joy to listen to, he uses the one of the best components and very knowledgeable man who will be able to guide you. The only issue I had was that it lacks a remote control, else I'd have picked it up. Keep us posted.

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk

 

[sound_cycle]

The most important thing which is missing here is Audition. Since lot many variables are involved in preamp selection, I'd suggest that you try to listen to it before buying. I was sceptical for the same reason; any of the Freya or Saga users can update us with their experience. Though my preference would be Freya for its options, I'd like to listen before I buy.

You are right

Fingers crossed. I am hoping that it'll work, like it did with bifrost (which also had to be blind, not experienced buy).

This time there are not too many reviews to be read.

Saga is paid for. Have to wait for Vidar.

I also do not have an entirely convincing story for not doing a repeat order of your success with the pre- power- combo, apart from ascribing sheer greed in spite of knowing of law of diminishing returns.

ciao
gr

 

[raghupb]

You are right

Fingers crossed. I am hoping that it'll work, like it did with bifrost (which also had to be blind, not experienced buy).

gr

GR,

Congrats on the leap of faith without burning too big a hole in the pocket or losing your wits about how to get the existing system to sound better.
Saga has had very positive reviews from people who have purchased it. So it will not be a dud.
Sitting in India, it is very difficult to have a buffet to choose from. Sometimes we have to get surprised (fingers crossed, pleasantly) by something that's out there.

If it makes you feel any better, most of my rig is "opportunistic blind buy", and it has not disappointed.
Now looking for the opportunity to buy Saga/Freya when possible.

The tedious work is in speaker placement and room treatment. This you have already done.
Next is providing oodles of love to the speaker, aka power and headroom, while being polite about it. Vidar (or a pair of them) or any other amp may do it.
Once you have these, a "patiala peg" and agreeable music will work with the brain to create the magic.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[sound_cycle]

Congrats on the leap of faith without burning too big a hole in the pocket or losing your wits about how to get the existing system to sound better.

drkrack coming over with a backpack full of gear made fast and speedy shortcuts to the decision possible, really.

Saga has had very positive reviews from people who have purchased it. So it will not be a dud.
Sitting in India, it is very difficult to have a buffet to choose from

yes. to both. and jumping headlong without a parachute is now second nature. It remains just as imprudent. It was much easier earlier, because I was (then) convinced that all DACs and amps (should) sound the same. I still remain convinced that there is no substitute for listening in your room (which kind of invalidates at least some of the benefits of "sighted" listening)

Sometimes we have to get surprised (fingers crossed, pleasantly) by something that's out there.

A recent big one was the pre- / post- combo drkrack posted about. I was expecting "kuchchii icecream" and got a proper cognac and coffee affair.

Like I said upthread, it would have been safe and relatively inexpensive to copy/ paste that. especially after having heard it in my room.

Kind of going for broke with the Saga/ Vidar decision. Schiit did play the bimby/saga/vidar at RMAF and got this response from stereophile
"I left the room thinking, as most people probably have: what a great sounding, affordably priced system! I've confirmed what all before me have learned: Schiit stays true to their word"
https://www.stereophile.com/content/rmaf-2016-janas-sunday-show#e1xYPbqh9d6lmhDS.99

Once you have these, a "patiala peg" and agreeable music will work with the brain to create the magic.

liquid upgrades are indeed the best music warming technique there is.

Vidar still has to come up for pre order so the impatient part of the wait wala countdown begins


ciao
gr