Suggestion on bookshelf that pairs well with svs sb1000pro

[Subbiya]

Hi Expert,
Recently I purchased SVS SB1000pro, now I'm searching for a bookshelf speakers(budget <30k) that sync well with subwoofer. During my research I found wharfedale diamond 12.1 should sync well with sub. But still need suggestion from others.

My research is based on bookshelf with 5 inch woofer and lower frequency should be above 60hz so that sub can perform other duties, (subwoofer crossover will be set at 80hz). I'm currently having Norge 1000 (I put it on sale, but planned to withdraw it)

I also found q acoustics 3020i suits my requirements but I heard that is having distortion issue at high volumes.

Other than above mentioned speakers, Dali Oberon 1 and elac 5.2 are going little deeper in low frequency which may cause overlapping in frequencies. Experts needs your advice on this and will do audition based on that.

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

Hi Expert,
Recently I purchased SVS SB1000pro, now I'm searching for a bookshelf speakers(budget <30k) that sync well with subwoofer. During my research I found wharfedale diamond 12.1 should sync well with sub. But still need suggestion from others.

My research is based on bookshelf with 5 inch woofer and lower frequency should be above 60hz so that sub can perform other duties, (subwoofer crossover will be set at 80hz). I'm currently having Norge 1000 (I put it on sale, but planned to withdraw it)

I also found q acoustics 3020i suits my requirements but I heard that is having distortion issue at high volumes.

Other than above mentioned speakers, Dali Oberon 1 and elac 5.2 are going little deeper in low frequency which may cause overlapping in frequencies. Experts needs your advice on this and will do audition based on that.

You should high pass the main speakers so that it won’t distort easily. But be aware that the subwoofers generally with DSP has some delay due to their DSP. This means, you might need some DSP on the mains to match the subs in terms of timing. Or else it would be a night mare which we will think is just due to the wrong placement, but at the end of the day we will never find that place where it blends nicely with the mains.

 

[Subbiya]

@Passive_audio_enthusiast thankyou for your reply.
so you are saying, it is best to use the sub only with AV receiver and with Integrated amplifier, I need to use devices like mini DSP. ? One of my friend is having marantz pm6007 that has a sub out, the same delay applies even if I connect with sub out from marantz.

 

[MaSh]

Hi Expert,
Recently I purchased SVS SB1000pro, now I'm searching for a bookshelf speakers(budget <30k) that sync well with subwoofer. During my research I found wharfedale diamond 12.1 should sync well with sub. But still need suggestion from others.

My research is based on bookshelf with 5 inch woofer and lower frequency should be above 60hz so that sub can perform other duties, (subwoofer crossover will be set at 80hz). I'm currently having Norge 1000 (I put it on sale, but planned to withdraw it)

I also found q acoustics 3020i suits my requirements but I heard that is having distortion issue at high volumes.

Other than above mentioned speakers, Dali Oberon 1 and elac 5.2 are going little deeper in low frequency which may cause overlapping in frequencies. Experts needs your advice on this and will do audition based on that.

Congratulations. That is an excellent sub for music. Regarding speakers and subwoofers, ideally there is no such thing as compatibility. The Sub has a DSP where you can fine tune it to pickup where the speakers roll off.

I would you look at the QA M20HD in that budget. The speakers have a Sub Out too which would help with all the timing issues if any. This will give you an all powered setup without the issue of matching amps. Plus a cleaner looking system. The speakers are around 45k on hifimart, however, if you sell your Norge, then it fits right in your budget.

MaSh

 

[Subbiya]

@MaSh thankyou for your response. I can borrow marantz pm6007 from my friend at no cost which has a sub out, he is not using it anymore. But still if I use marantz amp, the problem will exists ?

 

[MaSh]

@MaSh thankyou for your response. I can borrow marantz pm6007 from my friend at no cost which has a sub out, he is not using it anymore. But still if I use marantz amp, the problem will exists ?

Oh that would be great. Go ahead and try out. I am sure, SVS guys must have thought of it and programmed the DSP to compensate.

Do let us know how it all worked out.

MaSh

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

@Passive_audio_enthusiast thankyou for your reply.
so you are saying, it is best to use the sub only with AV receiver and with Integrated amplifier, I need to use devices like mini DSP. ? One of my friend is having marantz pm6007 that has a sub out, the same delay applies even if I connect with sub out from marantz.

Yes, use a mini DSP before the integrated amp and use the RCA outs for the integrated and sub. If you already don’t have a high quality DAC consider getting mini DSP flex as it has a very good DAC built in.

 

[Subbiya]

i forgot to mention, I have topping d50s with me. I will try with sub out first and if anything doesn't work, I will buy mini dsp. Thankyou @MaSh , @Passive_audio_enthusiast

 

[Subbiya]

I had a discussion with SVS chat team, and he replied

(5:32:11 PM) Jonathan West: The amount of delay the DSP amp adds is below a hundredth of a microsecond. It is more likely a tone issue if you are talking blending
(5:34:04 PM) Jonathan West: well if the blending is the issue then I would try cutting off the frequency to the Wharfdales
(5:34:24 PM) Jonathan West: More likely they are attempting lower frequencies that the subwoofer should handle
(5:37:27 PM) Jonathan West: You can also adjust the LPF and gain on the subwoofer and see if you can find a point where they blend in better.
(5:38:09 PM) Jonathan West: I don't think it is a timing issue from your description
(5:39:02 PM) Jonathan West: If you believe its timing play music that is just a steady beat, like a metronome

(5:34:04 PM) Jonathan West: well if the blending is the issue then I would try cutting off the frequency to the Wharfdales​

Questions to hfv member: Wharfedale diamond 12.1 frequency range is 65hz - 20khz there is nothing to cut off the lower frequecy, why we need a dsp here. ?​

​

Do we have any microphone and software to detect this delay. ?

 

[MaSh]

I had a discussion with SVS chat team, and he replied

(5:32:11 PM) Jonathan West: The amount of delay the DSP amp adds is below a hundredth of a microsecond. It is more likely a tone issue if you are talking blending
(5:34:04 PM) Jonathan West: well if the blending is the issue then I would try cutting off the frequency to the Wharfdales
(5:34:24 PM) Jonathan West: More likely they are attempting lower frequencies that the subwoofer should handle
(5:37:27 PM) Jonathan West: You can also adjust the LPF and gain on the subwoofer and see if you can find a point where they blend in better.
(5:38:09 PM) Jonathan West: I don't think it is a timing issue from your description
(5:39:02 PM) Jonathan West: If you believe its timing play music that is just a steady beat, like a metronome

(5:34:04 PM) Jonathan West: well if the blending is the issue then I would try cutting off the frequency to the Wharfdales​

Questions to hfv member: Wharfedale diamond 12.1 frequency range is 65hz - 20khz there is nothing to cut off the lower frequecy, why we need a dsp here. ?​

​

Do we have any microphone and software to detect this delay. ?

Keep it simple. The more you think about all this technically the more confused you'll get. Hook up your system and evaluate how it is sounding. Then see what is Wrong, Tolerable, Good and Perfect. Work your way from there.

MaSh

 

[Subbiya]

Hi Friends,
Just received my sub svs sb100pro. meanwhile I have shortlisted these three bookshelf, please input your pros and cons, will help me to audition and decide.

1. Q Acoustics Concept 20
2. Monitor Audio Bronze 50
3. Wharfedale 12.1

I shortlisted above these speakers based on lower freq. range (above 60hz) so that it will not perform sub duties. Please update your comments. thankyou.

 

[Amansingh]

Why not kef q150?

 

[Subbiya]

I'm not sure which one will sync best with sub, i listed out bookshelve based on freq. that goes above 60hz.

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

I'm not sure which one will sync best with sub, i listed out bookshelve based on freq. that goes above 60hz.

Forget the specs company is sharing. Hardly anything matches while testing. Also, depending on the placement, the lowest bass you get out any of the speaker would change. So feel free to go with anything from your list.

 

[jgm]

Congratulations. That is an excellent sub for music. Regarding speakers and subwoofers, ideally there is no such thing as compatibility. The Sub has a DSP where you can fine tune it to pickup where the speakers roll off.

I would you look at the QA M20HD in that budget. The speakers have a Sub Out too which would help with all the timing issues if any. This will give you an all powered setup without the issue of matching amps. Plus a cleaner looking system. The speakers are around 45k on hifimart, however, if you sell your Norge, then it fits right in your budget.

MaSh

Hello MaSh,

What’s your opinion about Wharfedale D10 subwoofer with QA M20HD? I need to decide between SVS SB 1000 Pro and Wharf D10.

Thanks
jgm

 

[jgm]

Hi Expert,
Recently I purchased SVS SB1000pro, now I'm searching for a bookshelf speakers(budget <30k) that sync well with subwoofer. During my research I found wharfedale diamond 12.1 should sync well with sub. But still need suggestion from others.

My research is based on bookshelf with 5 inch woofer and lower frequency should be above 60hz so that sub can perform other duties, (subwoofer crossover will be set at 80hz). I'm currently having Norge 1000 (I put it on sale, but planned to withdraw it)

I also found q acoustics 3020i suits my requirements but I heard that is having distortion issue at high volumes.

Other than above mentioned speakers, Dali Oberon 1 and elac 5.2 are going little deeper in low frequency which may cause overlapping in frequencies. Experts needs your advice on this and will do audition based on that.

Congrats on your new purchase May I know where did you buy the subwoofer from and what’s the cost… if it’s not a problem to share

 

[prateekatasniya]

Forget the specs company is sharing. Hardly anything matches while testing. Also, depending on the placement, the lowest bass you get out any of the speaker would change. So feel free to go with anything from your list.

He's right..
Adding to this - proper integration of the sub needs application of crossover at the right frequency and then proper time alignment of the sub with the speakers.

 

[Subbiya]

I did listen to few hundred of songs, so far, I don't feel any delay issues. I placed the sub on the side wall. Concept 20 is yet to arrive. Right now using taga bookshelf with sub. Very impressed with the sub performance. Whatever songs I skipped in previous setup sounds good now.

 

[DB1989]

He's right..
Adding to this - proper integration of the sub needs application of crossover at the right frequency and then proper time alignment of the sub with the speakers.

How does one achieve proper time alignment?

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

Below are my idle ramblings on the subject, so please take it with a big bucket of salt . Besides, Iam no subwoofer user, so don't have any real experience with them.

I had severe bass problems in my small room. So i was using a Dspeaker Antimode 2.0 to correct the bass only on the bass driver of my 3 way speaker. This bass driver was handling frequencies below 300 hz, While the mids and tweeter were run directly without any DSP or processing. I was quiet pleased with the improvement. Then @drkrack happened to come over for a listen, and he identified this delay in the bass notes immediately. So, what I would gather is to use DSP over the entire range, so that mids and treble can be delayed to match the processing time of the bass. If this has to be avoided, then the second option is to have the subwoofer closer to the listening position than the main speakers, by the distance equivalent to the processing delay.

I also have a minidsp SHD for subwoofer syncing, its claimed processing delay with max processes engaged was to the tune of 25ms if I remember right. When we convert that time into distance, it equates to 337 mtrs x 0.025 secs = 8.42 mtrs. So for optimum time alignment between the mains and the subwoofer, the sub woofer has to be closer to the listener than the main speakers by 8.42 mtrs. Which is impossible in a domestic environment, so the only solution is to delay the main speakers by 0.025 ms to align with the sub, if the sub is placed at the same distance from the listener as the main speakers. This will entail that the main speakers are also fed through the same DSP.

Just when the above seemed correct mathematically, we get a googly in the form of psychoacoustics. As per experiments conducted, it takes the brain 50 ms to process a 40 hz sound wave. And it takes 40 ms for the 40hz sound wave to even form completely, emanating out of a driver. So, in relation to the 50ms that the brain takes, the 25 ms that the Minidsp SHD takes, pales into comparison, and will be un-noticable by the brain.

Why @drkrack noticed that processing delay in my setup, was because I was using the correction upto 300hz. And as we all know the ear/brain is more sensitive to time / distance / placement of sounds as the frequency increases. However, considering that the ear/brain loses directivity at 80hz. I would hazard a guess that if a sub is used below 80hz, then the resultant time delay might not be noticable.

The above said, we still experience disjointed bass when a sub woofer is used. When we look at why Rel insists on speaker level inputs, the main idea is that the bass driver in the speaker and the sub is receiving the same signal. When we mean same signal, it means signal same in phase. Both drivers move in the same direction at all times. This removal of phase error probably helps a great deal. Second is their advise against using a high pass for the speakers. But to run the speakers full range, and to blend the sub where the speakers naturally roll off to our ears ( Not to the microphone ). This again avoids two different sources of sound at the same frequency, so that they are not distinguishable as being separate sources of sound.

Hence, in my opinion, if a sub woofer is driven at 60hz or lower, at the correct phase, then it might not be identifiable despite the time delay. Would fondly look forward to the real world experiences of subwoofer users with their own findings.