Lossless Audio Does Not Sound Better Than MP3?

If you want to go there, QM has no theory to explain the mass of the neutrino. QM has no way to reconcile with GR. So is QM bogus or GR?
(i didn't go 'there' at all, whatever that means. now that out of the way...)

how about a higher theory which explains both?

string theory tried it but it made no falsifiable predictions (and too many hypothetical assumptions) hence almost discarded. quantum super-gravity theory never took off and the inflation theory wasn't studied at all (proposed by nobel laureate Roger Penrose). that is why now we are stuck with standard model. when we smash bigger and bigger particles we get interesting results and we are hoping someone can make sense of it all and create a grand theory (no, guessing the weight of a particle like Higgs Boson doesn't count lol). and also try to build a new theory that can combine both QF and GR with those results. it is a problem not yet figured out but best minds are working towards it :)

so wrt. audio, the measurements are not everything and there is more we haven't yet figured out, but we will, with the help of experimental & theoritical scientists, just like the ESS Sabre Dac guy rightly said. until then, measurements like THD, IMD, damping factor, feedback gain, etc. shouldn't be confused with ultimate audio fiedelity (when all else is equal). they are the right steps towards that goal but probably we haven't nailed down ALL the variables that contribute to it. cheers
 
so wrt. audio, the measurements are not everything and there is more we haven't yet figured out, but we will, with the help of experimental & theoritical scientists, just like the ESS Sabre Dac guy rightly said. until then, measurements like THD, IMD, damping factor, feedback gain, etc. shouldn't be confused with ultimate audio fiedelity (when all else is equal). they are the right steps towards that goal but probably we haven't nailed down ALL the variables that contribute to it. cheers
Absolutely! And let’s not forget other significant variables like synergy between components in the audio chain, the quality of the recording used to evaluate, room acoustics, our hearing ability and listening capabilities all of which are difficult to define, standardise and measure.
Objective measurement are a useful starting point for selecting components (eg: For Amp power output and speaker impedance curves and sensitivity matching) But beyond this it’s unfair to expect current measurement indices to predict if we will like the sound or not.
I feel the generous “buy, try and return policy” for audio gear in the US and EU countries is born out of a recognition of this.

There was a long discussion on this and more: https://www.hifivision.com/threads/objectivity-vs-subjectivity.87638/
 
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How long have you been listening at this loudness level?
If this figure is measured using a decibel meter, then you may be knowing the warning about losing ear sensitivity. In which case it become all the more surprising that you can hear all the "difference in details" between lossless and mp3
its not that incredible. If you use Z weighted measurement and have speakers that can produce substantial output in excess of 110db below 20hz in room, measurements will easily come in excess of 110db primarily due to the bass response without being too excessive on the ears.
 
I usually don’t get into these ‘x > y’ debates; life is too short to get stuck with a single music format. 85% of my music listening is via original CDs, 5% is via 320 kbps mp3s downloaded from mp3million and burned to CD-R, the rest is via Apple Music. The latter allows me to check out albums I might want to buy, or create playlists for tracks that I won’t. (Yo Yo Honey Singh is reserved for parties where I’d be stoned for playing jazz!)

Till recently, I was hooking up an iPad to the internal DAC in my Cayin tube amp via USB cable and streaming lossless. Since it was a wired connection, this created two problems:
  • Changing tracks involved a long trek to the console from my couch potato location.
  • At parties, I’d often experience a cardiac arrest as inebriated friends would hover over my setup, refreshing beverage in one hand, stabbing at the ipad with the other as they searched for their favourite tracks.
Which is why I decided to pick up an iFi Zen Blue v2 Bluetooth streamer. Sure, I’d be giving up ‘HiRez’ audio for a paltry 256 kbps file, but I really didn’t care. As long as I was discovering new music, the audio quality didn’t matter.

Imagine my surprise, then, when I discovered that the Bluetooth stream sounded better than the iPad directly connected via USB! In the new setup, the iPad is streaming via BT to the iFi, which in turn is connected to a Denafrips Pontus via coaxial. (For some reason, the iPad to Pontus via USB never worked)

So, is it the DAC that’s the X factor here, or is it that bits don’t matter? Well, here’s a better question - who cares?!? As long as you’re listening to the music, and not your system, all will be well with the world :)
 
So, is it the DAC that’s the X factor here, or is it that bits don’t matter? Well, here’s a better question - who cares?!? As long as you’re listening to the music, and not your system, all will be well with the world :)
Since you asked an open ended question (perhaps rhetorical but i choose to believe it to be the former), I do care! Whether you care about me caring is another matter 😄 . I'm also happy to report that all is well (in my world) notwithstanding. 😛

P.S: - Perhaps you don't care but care enough to entertain me for a moment, I'm curious to know whether you also considered the Ifi Zen Stream since you were looking at a digital source?
 
I'm curious to know whether you also considered the Ifi Zen Stream since you were looking at a digital source?
Yes, I did look at the Zen Stream, albeit briefly. To be honest, I’m a simpleton when it comes to digital audio; terms like Roon and DLNA fill me with dread :) I felt the streamer would be overkill since I only needed a way to play Apple Music wirelessly. In that respect, the Zen Blue is ridiculously simple to operate; switch on Bluetooth on the iPad, open the Music app and hit play. And, at nearly half the cost of the streamer, the Blue was clearly the Lifebuoy option - sastha, sundar, tikau :)
 
Absolutely! And let’s not forget other significant variables like synergy between components in the audio chain, the quality of the recording used to evaluate, room acoustics, our hearing ability and listening capabilities all of which are difficult to define, standardise and measure.
Objective measurement are a useful starting point for selecting components (eg: For Amp power output and speaker impedance curves and sensitivity matching) But beyond this it’s unfair to expect current measurement indices to predict if we will like the sound or not.
100% agree. even then, synergy is still not objective enough for the measurements to capture correct? we still need to understand what these 'objective' variables are which define a perfect synergy (counting the room acoustics out) correct? i feel we are not even there yet. IMHO of course, happy to be corrected.

aah once we do that we could also measure objectively as to which RasMalai is tastier and which mango is better !!
( of course its the Mallika ! 😇 )
probably there is a reason why AI is coming at arts/craft/snobbery before anything else. low hanging fruits i suppose (speaking as a snob/self proclaimed artist myself) 🤣🤣
 
I usually don’t get into these ‘x > y’ debates; life is too short to get stuck with a single music format. 85% of my music listening is via original CDs, 5% is via 320 kbps mp3s downloaded from mp3million and burned to CD-R, the rest is via Apple Music. The latter allows me to check out albums I might want to buy, or create playlists for tracks that I won’t. (Yo Yo Honey Singh is reserved for parties where I’d be stoned for playing jazz!)

Till recently, I was hooking up an iPad to the internal DAC in my Cayin tube amp via USB cable and streaming lossless. Since it was a wired connection, this created two problems:
  • Changing tracks involved a long trek to the console from my couch potato location.
  • At parties, I’d often experience a cardiac arrest as inebriated friends would hover over my setup, refreshing beverage in one hand, stabbing at the ipad with the other as they searched for their favourite tracks.
Which is why I decided to pick up an iFi Zen Blue v2 Bluetooth streamer. Sure, I’d be giving up ‘HiRez’ audio for a paltry 256 kbps file, but I really didn’t care. As long as I was discovering new music, the audio quality didn’t matter.

Imagine my surprise, then, when I discovered that the Bluetooth stream sounded better than the iPad directly connected via USB! In the new setup, the iPad is streaming via BT to the iFi, which in turn is connected to a Denafrips Pontus via coaxial. (For some reason, the iPad to Pontus via USB never worked)

So, is it the DAC that’s the X factor here, or is it that bits don’t matter? Well, here’s a better question - who cares?!? As long as you’re listening to the music, and not your system, all will be well with the world :)
Lots of surprises there. When our assumptions are challenged (Hires always sounds better than MP3, Wired streams are always better sounding the BT and so on, it’s a perplexing revelation. I guess after pondering over these a while and getting no satisfactory answers we come to the “who cares as long as I am enjoying my music” 😄
 
Yes, I did look at the Zen Stream, albeit briefly. To be honest, I’m a simpleton when it comes to digital audio; terms like Roon and DLNA fill me with dread :) I felt the streamer would be overkill since I only needed a way to play Apple Music wirelessly. In that respect, the Zen Blue is ridiculously simple to operate; switch on Bluetooth on the iPad, open the Music app and hit play. And, at nearly half the cost of the streamer, the Blue was clearly the Lifebuoy option - sastha, sundar, tikau :)
Quite understandable. It took me the better part of a decade trying to wrap my head around the concept of a digital streamer in an era where Intel NUC PC's existed. And it'll probably take me another or two to understand the function/advantage of Roon. 😂
 
Quite understandable. It took me the better part of a decade trying to wrap my head around the concept of a digital streamer in an era where Intel NUC PC's existed. And it'll probably take me another or two to understand the function/advantage of Roon. 😂
In my limited experience with Roon - 5-6 months odd. There are certain advantages to Roon - for digital media/streaming consumers, specially with a large library of local files. The ability to put it all in one place & not having to run about with multiple softwares/apps etc.

Not commenting on the sound quality - that can be acquired taste, but it does simplify your life to an "extent", it has it's own limitations & requirements & like everything it is not perfect. But anyone with a large local library & Qobuz & Tidal subscriptions - should give it a try once.

The UI makes Qobuz bearable & the way it organises your local music (subjective opinion) can be amazing.

If there are any ZUNE users here - you will remember the ZUNE desktop software UI (even on the device actually), it is very similar to that (lets say inspired), I was always a big fan of that UI.

***I do not use Roon anymore, as I lost almost my entire local collection (barring a 100 or so songs).

***If you are ok with the cost + adding one more device as roon core - give it a try - will be fun.
 
In my limited experience with Roon - 5-6 months odd. There are certain advantages to Roon - for digital media/streaming consumers, specially with a large library of local files. The ability to put it all in one place & not having to run about with multiple softwares/apps etc.

Not commenting on the sound quality - that can be acquired taste, but it does simplify your life to an "extent", it has it's own limitations & requirements & like everything it is not perfect. But anyone with a large local library & Qobuz & Tidal subscriptions - should give it a try once.

The UI makes Qobuz bearable & the way it organises your local music (subjective opinion) can be amazing.

If there are any ZUNE users here - you will remember the ZUNE desktop software UI (even on the device actually), it is very similar to that (lets say inspired), I was always a big fan of that UI.

***I do not use Roon anymore, as I lost almost my entire local collection (barring a 100 or so songs).

***If you are ok with the cost + adding one more device as roon core - give it a try - will be fun.
I see. That makes sense. On a basic level, i understand that it orqanises the library of local files etc. and provides a single interface to control all roon ready hardware. I used a 3 month trial version of Roon in 2018 which was bundled along with the Chord Mojo. Back then, I found it a bit inconvenient/complicated (can't remember which one) over playing files directly from Apple Music and Spotify. For local files, i was using Windows Media Player in which I had been compiling playlists since 2005 and didn't feel the need an additional interface which had another learning curve. However, as i write this response and try to reason it out, its starting to make more sense 😄 - as my digital sources have grown, there is an element of convenience offered over Plex, which I'm currently using to access local files on my various digital devices. . It seems it made little sense to me earlier as the value proposition vis-a-vis the use case scenario had not presented itself. Thanks Chander.
 
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Lots of surprises there. When our assumptions are challenged (Hires always sounds better than MP3, Wired streams are always better sounding the BT and so on, it’s a perplexing revelation. I guess after pondering over these a while and getting no satisfactory answers we come to the “who cares as long as I am enjoying my music” 😄
still, compiler error, missing closing paranthesis 😖

I have had Tidal Subscription for 2 years and I have not yet heard a difference between Hi Res and 256 kbps AAC on Windows Desktop from Apple Music.
BTW aac kills anything above 16khz as far as i know (need to google tomorrow). so if you're not sensitive to that you may not hear a difference
 
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BTW aac kills anything above 16khz as far as i know (need to google tomorrow). so if you're not sensitive to that you may not hear a difference
Both MP3 and AAC starts killing frequencies above 16 kHz gradually. This can be seen in any spectogram of the music file.

still, compiler error, missing closing paranthesis 😖
I thought I was the only one who looks into missing brackets, parenthesis, etc. I think people who write programs notice this more often. In fact I must have read that post 2 or 3 times to try locate the closing round brace before giving up.
 
Both MP3 and AAC starts killing frequencies above 16 kHz gradually. This can be seen in any spectogram of the music file.
yes, but i think aac first does an HPF (correction, LPF) on 16khz on the analog signal and then looks for the compression optimizations, whilst mp3 puts lower weightage on the higher frequencies during encoding. could be wrong though
 
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Melody khao khud jaan jaao
Bob Carver didn't just stop because he didn't hear any difference between the two systems, he wanted his audience satisfied as well. he created his own contraption to make it happen, worthy goal in my mind:


some people may brand him as psuedo-scientist/marketing-drone etc., but it is quite impressive what he did in the challenge posed by Stereophile.
 
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I think most people don't notice, because most don't listen intently long enough.
Try to do meditation, how long is it before our mind wanders off ? may be a minute or two .. after training hard for a few weeks one may reach at the most 10 minutes of unbroken concentration .. :-)

I doubt if even hard core audiophiles listen to their music long enough attentively , though low bit rate music is instantly noticeable and irritable.

There is a increasingly lower rate of improvement as bit rate increases, so there is big jump in perceived quality from 128 to 256 , lower jump from 256 to 384, and beyond that most don't care. Is there is an improvement ? Yes, do we care ? No. :-)

To me convenience/better recommendations of Youtube music wins over the lossless streaming services like Apple and Tidal.
 
I can clearly hear the difference between Apple Music lossless vs Spotify on the same system. MP3 vs Flac is like playing music with thick speaker grills on and off

I think most people don't notice, because most don't listen intently long enough.
Try to do meditation, how long is it before our mind wanders off ? may be a minute or two .. after training hard for a few weeks one may reach at the most 10 minutes of unbroken concentration .. :-)

I doubt if even hard core audiophiles listen to their music long enough attentively , though low bit rate music is instantly noticeable and irritable.

There is a increasingly lower rate of improvement as bit rate increases, so there is big jump in perceived quality from 128 to 256 , lower jump from 256 to 384, and beyond that most don't care. Is there is an improvement ? Yes, do we care ? No. :-)

To me convenience/better recommendations of Youtube music wins over the lossless streaming services like Apple and Tidal.
You’re on the wrong forum 😆. You lost me when you compared YouTube to Tidal
 
He compared convenience and recommendation of youtube over apple music and tidal, which I also agree as far as convenience and software goes. Also MQA which Tidal used, is a proprietary lossy and unproven format and now you know it was a big scam. Many liked it because of many authors who praised Tidal were paid to do so. And hence many followed the glowing recommendations like a herd of sheep. So youtube and spotify wins over tidal any time of the day of the year. Quality of AM is better than spotify, but it requires specific restricted hardware and software to fully exploit the lossless format. For me the biggest advantage of spotify over AM is switching of player. I have a large house and when I switch rooms, i can switch to a different amp in different room without losing the exact point where the song was playing. With apple music when I switch to a different phone or different macbook, the whole thing has to be started again. This happens to be the biggest reason I use spotify more frequently then AM.
 
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