Switching from a sound bar to a 3.0 / 3.1 channel setup built around a KEF Q650c

[greasemonk]

Hi everyone. This is my first post and its going to be a long one!

Previous TV Setup: ​

I used to have a JBL 5.1 Bar soundbar (the one with the detachable surround speakers). With the recent power cuts in Chennai, it has sadly given up the ghost.

What I liked about the soundbar:​

• The sub added a nice bit of oomph for movies and filled the room nicely. I'm not a bass-head, so rarely exceeded 50% sub volume.
• The detachable speakers, although intended for rear channels in movies, I ended up using it more to spread music evenly through the house when I was entertaining guests. The soundbar behaves well at low volumes in my space, so it was great for background music.

What I didn't like:​

• Due to the size and shape of my space (more on that later) the soundbar wasn't great with audibility in movies. Matters became worse if you wanted to use the detachable rears since you were essentially robbing the 'center' channel of 1/3 of its woofers. Minus the bass, everything else was a bit of a mess. Orders of magnitude better than my TV speakers though, so I happily stuck with them.
• For similar reasons, active music listening at higher volumes wasn't great. I preferred listening to music on my Harmon Omni 20+ in that space.
• The fact that it died and I can't make use of the wireless sub or detachable speakers for anything else due to everything being proprietary.

I have now decided to get something more modular. i.e. Discrete speakers and amplification. As tempted as I am to just do a 2.0\2.1 setup with a simple amp where less can break, I do value vocals requiring me to invest in an AVR for a center channel. Ideally, I would prefer everything to be separate: surround processor --> amp(s) --> speakers, however I'm disappointed in how pricey processors are, considering they do 'less' than an AVR.

I already have a KEF Q650c as a center channel (yes, I started my HT setup with a center speaker and nothing to hook it up to, lol), and I'm looking for front mains and an AVR to accompany them. Depending on how I like the set up, I may add a small sub a few months down the line, but would rather avoid it.

Listening Space: ​

My house has an open floor plan; the TV room, dining room and kitchen are one big open area with 2.7m/9ft ceilings. The TV area is approximately quarter of the entire space. To complicate things further, the area right above the MLP is open to the second floor with stairs going up, resulting in a ceiling height of over 5.8m/19ft. I have included a very rough floor layout + photos when viewing the MLP from the TV & viewing the TV from the MLP to give a better idea of the room. Excuse the mess in the photos . This is a rented space, so I can't do anything about sound treatment short of the carpet I already have.




I'm 95% sure the size and shape of the space caused me to be unhappy with the soundbar's performance. TBH I was asking a lot from it!

Speaker Selection:​

Ideally, I would like to avoid adding a subwoofer. While it is warranted in a space of this size, I am always wary that I may move into a smaller apartment in the future with neighbors and shared walls. I know how annoying bass can be to people not consuming the media and how easy it is for bass to propagate through walls. I would be curious to hear the experiences fellow FMs who live in apartment buildings have fared with their HT setups from the perspective of the Neighbor Acceptance Factor. That being said, I was looking for fronts that had reasonable low-end so as to improve my chances of not requiring a sub.

While I would mainly consume movies on this setup, I would like to weigh music equally with my speaker selection. i.e. I'm willing to compromise movie performance to get decent music as well.

What's my budget? If you read what I've shortlisted below, you can see its all over the place. But what I do value is how much they cost relative to US MRPs. e.g. KEF Q650c @ <70k: decent value, KEF Q750 @ 2L: bad value.

The cheap choice: Monitor Audio Bronze 100's - 8 inch woofer. I heard Monitor Audio floorstanders + surrounds while helping a friend audition HT systems and I liked their signature. Available at prices comparable to or lower than US MRP. (Nominal, 8Ω. Minimum, 4.5Ω)

The safe choice: KEF Q350 - will definitely match tonally with my center channel. Reviews state bass is quite close to the Bronze 100's. Albeit good value compared to the Q150, it is a bit pricey compared to US MRP. (Nominal, 8Ω. Minimum, 3.7Ω)

The YOLO choice: Wharfedale Lintons - Hifimarts pricing on these are great and very close to US MRP. I would be massively blowing my original budget on these, but I could delude/rationalize that they could be my end-game speakers and hence a one-time purchase. It also, again, improves my chances of avoiding a sub. My concerns are:

• How are they for movies? Most reviews only talk about music.
• How do they perform at low volumes? i.e. for background music when entertaining guests + if I move into a smaller apartment.
• Nominal Impedance, 6Ω. Minimum Impedance, 3.5Ω

KEF Q650c: Nominal Impedance, 8Ω. Minimum Impedance, 4.2Ω

AVR Selection:​

Side note: Does anyone have experience with HDMI ARC audio extractors like this? It claims to decode Dolby and DTS. If my chain is Nvidia Shield --> TV --arc--> Extractor --> Dedicated Amp --> Speakers would that allow me to avoid using an AVR? TBH Im not interested in the video functions that an AVR provides, and my TV has more than sufficient HDMI ports for my needs. Yes, I lose room correction, but I can fix that with a MiniDSP in the future.

Assuming the above isn't possible, I'm trying to shortlist AVRs. TBH I almost see AVRs as semi-disposable from a technology perspective so I'm not too keen to invest a lot in it. Combine this with the fact that I don't require its video processing and I'll be using 3.1 channels at most. If you have arguments in favour of the value an AVR provides (and is not just a necessary evil), I would love to hear your perspective.

Requirements:​

• 5.1 channel
• Can handle the impedance of the center + shortlisted speakers (how important is it that AVRs can handle the min impedance of speakers?)
• Nice to have: pre-outs, particularly for the front and center channels
  • If pre-outs isn't possible, 100W per channel @ 8Ω @ <0.1 THD
• Spend as little as possible

Please treat my AVR shortlist as half-assed at best. I was tearing my hair out at the seemingly artificial compromises that were being made at lower price levels, and so I didn't go too deep. I will be leaning heavily on the advice I receive here and I'm more than happy to look outside this list.

The dirt cheap option: Denon X250BT - No pre-outs, approx 70 WPC but don't think this can handle the minimum impedances of my shortlisted speakers. I don't see the X580BT adding too much value on top of this except the better speaker binding posts (please correct me if I am wrong).

The wheezy compromise: Marantz NR-1510: Front pre-outs so power can be handled with an amp, but center channel will be limited to a lethargic 50W.

The cheapest 'decent' option: Yamaha RX-V6A: Front pre-outs and 100W for the center channel. This already feels too expensive for my taste since it includes so much that I wont use (8k video, 7.2 channels).

In the early days of my research I vaguely remember seeing AVRs with front AND center pre-outs, but for the life of me, I cant find them now. Maybe I was looking at the used market. Of course, used would be my ideal bet, but I've been eyeing the forum's classifieds for a while and AVRs don't seem to come up too often. And I don't really trust FB Marketplace\OLX for electronics that have a tendency to die and I could end up with a lemon.

Miscellaneous Input Required:​

Could I also get recommendations for a stabilizer and cost-effective speaker stands (in case I don't go with the Lintons)

 

[DB1989]

Hi everyone. This is my first post and its going to be a long one!

Previous TV Setup: ​

I used to have a JBL 5.1 Bar soundbar (the one with the detachable surround speakers). With the recent power cuts in Chennai, it has sadly given up the ghost.

What I liked about the soundbar:​

• The sub added a nice bit of oomph for movies and filled the room nicely. I'm not a bass-head, so rarely exceeded 50% sub volume.
• The detachable speakers, although intended for rear channels in movies, I ended up using it more to spread music evenly through the house when I was entertaining guests. The soundbar behaves well at low volumes in my space, so it was great for background music.

What I didn't like:​

• Due to the size and shape of my space (more on that later) the soundbar wasn't great with audibility in movies. Matters became worse if you wanted to use the detachable rears since you were essentially robbing the 'center' channel of 1/3 of its woofers. Minus the bass, everything else was a bit of a mess. Orders of magnitude better than my TV speakers though, so I happily stuck with them.
• For similar reasons, active music listening at higher volumes wasn't great. I preferred listening to music on my Harmon Omni 20+ in that space.
• The fact that it died and I can't make use of the wireless sub or detachable speakers for anything else due to everything being proprietary.

I have now decided to get something more modular. i.e. Discrete speakers and amplification. As tempted as I am to just do a 2.0\2.1 setup with a simple amp where less can break, I do value vocals requiring me to invest in an AVR for a center channel. Ideally, I would prefer everything to be separate: surround processor --> amp(s) --> speakers, however I'm disappointed in how pricey processors are, considering they do 'less' than an AVR.

I already have a KEF Q650c as a center channel (yes, I started my HT setup with a center speaker and nothing to hook it up to, lol), and I'm looking for front mains and an AVR to accompany them. Depending on how I like the set up, I may add a small sub a few months down the line, but would rather avoid it.

Listening Space: ​

My house has an open floor plan; the TV room, dining room and kitchen are one big open area with 2.7m/9ft ceilings. The TV area is approximately quarter of the entire space. To complicate things further, the area right above the MLP is open to the second floor with stairs going up, resulting in a ceiling height of over 5.8m/19ft. I have included a very rough floor layout + photos when viewing the MLP from the TV & viewing the TV from the MLP to give a better idea of the room. Excuse the mess in the photos . This is a rented space, so I can't do anything about sound treatment short of the carpet I already have.

View attachment 85008
View attachment 85009

I'm 95% sure the size and shape of the space caused me to be unhappy with the soundbar's performance. TBH I was asking a lot from it!

Whew! Quite an exhaustive description of your situation which is a double edged sword - pandemic's over so ain't nobody got time for that!

Speaker Selection:​

Ideally, I would like to avoid adding a subwoofer. While it is warranted in a space of this size, I am always wary that I may move into a smaller apartment in the future with neighbors and shared walls. I know how annoying bass can be to people not consuming the media and how easy it is for bass to propagate through walls. I would be curious to hear the experiences fellow FMs who live in apartment buildings have fared with their HT setups from the perspective of the Neighbor Acceptance Factor.

Apparently depends on the construction quality of the apartment building you're living in. I've lived in an apartment for the past 20 years and in the hobby for the past 17. Never had a "bass" or for that matter, sound related complaint till date.

For reference on what levels may be acceptable before you fall foul of NAF, I am currently running 6 subwoofers and I regularly listen at volumes of around a 100db (Z-weighted).

That being said, I was looking for fronts that had reasonable low-end so as to improve my chances of not requiring a sub.

If you are reasonably certain that your system is going to be plonked in your living room notwithstanding future possibilities of relocation, consider Floorstanders for this objective.

In the 3 moves I've made so far, I've always needed a sub to support my mains (bookshelves) in the living room system. If you're not averse to the idea of adding a subwoofer, bookshelves will do.

While I would mainly consume movies on this setup, I would like to weigh music equally with my speaker selection. i.e. I'm willing to compromise movie performance to get decent music as well.

What's my budget? If you read what I've shortlisted below, you can see its all over the place. But what I do value is how much they cost relative to US MRPs. e.g. KEF Q650c @ <70k: decent value, KEF Q750 @ 2L: bad value.

The cheap choice: Monitor Audio Bronze 100's - 8 inch woofer. I heard Monitor Audio floorstanders + surrounds while helping a friend audition HT systems and I liked their signature. Available at prices comparable to or lower than US MRP. (Nominal, 8Ω. Minimum, 4.5Ω)

Cheap but good choice. One of the most rationally priced speakers, I got my KEF Q350s cheaper than the Bronze 100s. Since then, the Q350 price has more than doubled whereas the MA 100s have remained more or less the same. If I were you, I'd ditch the Q650 centre and go with an all MA setup. The MA100s have better sensitivity too so they'll need lesser power from the receiver to go loud.

The safe choice: KEF Q350 - will definitely match tonally with my center channel. Reviews state bass is quite close to the Bronze 100's. Albeit good value compared to the Q150, it is a bit pricey compared to US MRP. (Nominal, 8Ω. Minimum, 3.7Ω)

Safe choice indeed if you stick with the 650c. I've made the mistake of not selecting the same make/ model of fronts to centre and let's just say it sounded less than ideal since it affects Immersion.

The YOLO choice: Wharfedale Lintons - Hifimarts pricing on these are great and very close to US MRP. I would be massively blowing my original budget on these, but I could delude/rationalize that they could be my end-game speakers and hence a one-time purchase. It also, again, improves my chances of avoiding a sub. My concerns are:

• How are they for movies? Most reviews only talk about music.
• How do they perform at low volumes? i.e. for background music when entertaining guests + if I move into a smaller apartment.
• Nominal Impedance, 6Ω. Minimum Impedance, 3.5Ω

Finding a matching centre and surrounds would be a concern. If you can look beyond it and could do with a trade off in Immersion during movies, they're perfectly capable speakers. Capable of pressurizing such a large space? Well, you could get lucky since there's an element unpredictably in the way bass behaves in large unconventional spaces.

AVR Selection:​

Side note: Does anyone have experience with HDMI ARC audio extractors like this? It claims to decode Dolby and DTS. If my chain is Nvidia Shield --> TV --arc--> Extractor --> Dedicated Amp --> Speakers would that allow me to avoid using an AVR? TBH Im not interested in the video functions that an AVR provides, and my TV has more than sufficient HDMI ports for my needs. Yes, I lose room correction, but I can fix that with a MiniDSP in the future.

Lol, that's a rather complicated solution for something that your TV can do internally i.e. conversion of an HDMI signal to any audio out connector your TV has may it be optical, coaxial or rca - no Extractor required.

Assuming the above isn't possible, I'm trying to shortlist AVRs. TBH I almost see AVRs as semi-disposable from a technology perspective so I'm not too keen to invest a lot in it. Combine this with the fact that I don't require its video processing and I'll be using 3.1 channels at most. If you have arguments in favour of the value an AVR provides (and is not just a necessary evil), I would love to hear your perspective.

After going through several pieces of dedicated components, I consider AVRs to provide the best bang for buck. Building a separates system to achieve the same functionality and performance below 1.5L, to the best of my knowledge, is very difficult if not impossible.

Requirements:​

• 5.1 channel
• Can handle the impedance of the center + shortlisted speakers (how important is it that AVRs can handle the min impedance of speakers?)
• Nice to have: pre-outs, particularly for the front and center channels
  • If pre-outs isn't possible, 100W per channel @ 8Ω @ <0.1 THD
• Spend as little as possible

Please treat my AVR shortlist as half-assed at best. I was tearing my hair out at the seemingly artificial compromises that were being made at lower price levels, and so I didn't go too deep. I will be leaning heavily on the advice I receive here and I'm more than happy to look outside this list.

The dirt cheap option: Denon X250BT - No pre-outs, approx 70 WPC but don't think this can handle the minimum impedances of my shortlisted speakers. I don't see the X580BT adding too much value on top of this except the better speaker binding posts (please correct me if I am wrong).

I had the Denon X2400H briefly and the stereo performance was rather lackluster.

The wheezy compromise: Marantz NR-1510: Front pre-outs so power can be handled with an amp, but center channel will be limited to a lethargic 50W.

I have the earlier model in the NR1508. It was excellent value for 27k and it sounds quite pleasant but the sound loses out on both details and dynamism.

The cheapest 'decent' option: Yamaha RX-V6A: Front pre-outs and 100W for the center channel. This already feels too expensive for my taste since it includes so much that I wont use (8k video, 7.2 channels).

Heard a 6000USD Yamaha speaker (NS5000) driven by the Yamaha V6A. it was the most awful sound I've heard.

In the early days of my research I vaguely remember seeing AVRs with front AND center pre-outs, but for the life of me, I cant find them now. Maybe I was looking at the used market.

all but the cheapest piece of crap AVRs have a full suit of 11.2 or more pre-outs.

Miscellaneous Input Required:​

Could I also get recommendations for a stabilizer and cost-effective speaker stands (in case I don't go with the Lintons)

Some may say DIY but unless you have a good idea of what you're doing, it's best avoided and cheaper to buy retail. With the caveat out of the way, choose anything from soundfoundations with the relevant consideration being the speaker height while seated in your Major Listening Position (MLP). For most scenarios, it's ideal to have the speaker at a height where your ears are on a plane between the tweeter and midbass driver.

 

[ssf]

DB1989 has given a very detailed reply. Let me add my thoughts too.

The Kef Q650c is a good speaker. Congrats on the purchase. If you plan to keep the speaker and go with the Kefs, I would suggest a Kef Q350 or even a KEF Q150 and a decent sub. This will give you better performance than going with a system without a sub especially seeing that you are not planning to get one of those higher end receivers.

What a sub does in a HT environment is that it takes a bit of a load from the AV Receiver as all frequencies below the crossover set will be handled by the sub and it is usually the lower frequencies that the entry level to mid level receivers struggle with especially with speakers that have a rating lower than 8 Ohms.

I would say, pick up a receiver like the Denon X2800H and sometime down the line you might even get into 5.1 or 5.1.2. In my opinion, a 5.1 will be a big leap from a 3.0 or 3.1.

I have one 15 inch sub driven by a Crown xls 2502 in bridged mode which generates around 1550 watts. I run my sub just barely louder than my main speakers. The impact of a sub, I feel can not be replicated by small floorstanding speakers with the entry level receivers that you are looking at.

I stay in an apartment too. So far, no complaints from neighbours.

Speaker stands:

https://hifimart.com/product-category/av-furniture/speaker-brackets-stands/

 

[suku_patel_22]

With a space that open, and MLP that far away, you will.miss out on a lot without a subwoofer. Ghe bookshelf will not be able to do justice.

My thoughts:

• Good choice on Q650c. It's a good one.
• Matching LCR is very important. The "ideal" recommendation is to have the same speakers in LCR. The keast we should do is get the soeakers from the same brand and range.
• Get floor standers I'd you want to avoid a subwoofer
• Get a ported front firing subwoofer, if not now, a few months down the line
• In a 5.1 audio track, there is a dedicated LFE(low frequency effect) track (.1). This is played only on a subwoofer. Without a subwoofer, you will.miss out on a lot of effects. So, for 5.1, the sub is very important.
• I'd try placing the sub near the sofa. You'll need to experiment with the placement.
• I would go with Q350 here, and add a front firing sub.
• Add a larger carpet, especially closer to the TV & speakers. More than the walls, the early Reflections off the floor cause issues. An easy solution for the walls is curtains or canvas paintings
• An AVR is necessary. Don't just see it as an HDMI switcher. It also adds room correction, speakers level and distance controls, etc. It also ensure AV sync.

Best of luck on this journey.

 

[greasemonk]

Thank you all for your suggestions. In an unforseen turn of events I am now the owner of a pair of pre-owned KEF R900 towers! My Q650C also arrived today. When it rains it pours, huh.

Now the hunt for an AVR begins. As much as the Yam V6A costs, and the lackluster feedback I'm hearing of them on this thread, what are your thoughts on the Marantz SR5015 if I extend my budget a bit? I'm also seeing a listing on OLX for a Marantz Cinema 60 for around the price of the Yamaha, but the listing has me believing its a grey market dealer rather than an owner.

 

[suku_patel_22]

Thank you all for your suggestions. In an unforseen turn of events I am now the owner of a pair of pre-owned KEF R900 towers! My Q650C also arrived today. When it rains it pours, huh.

Now the hunt for an AVR begins. As much as the Yam V6A costs, and the lackluster feedback I'm hearing of them on this thread, what are your thoughts on the Marantz SR5015 if I extend my budget a bit? I'm also seeing a listing on OLX for a Marantz Cinema 60 for around the price of the Yamaha, but the listing has me believing its a grey market dealer rather than an owner.

Congratulations on the three speakers. You are starting off your HT journey with a bang.

I am.using SR5015 with Wharfdale Diamond speakers and am.very happy with them. Please buy from genuine dealers and don't fall for online scamsters.

As I am in Mumbai, I got mine directly from MZ Audio. They ship as well.

 

[ssf]

I am now the owner of a pair of pre-owned KEF R900 towers!

Nice !!!

what are your thoughts on the Marantz SR5015 if I extend my budget a bit?

Also nice. Am sure you will be quite happy with this one. It has pre-outs if you want to connect a power amp later on.

 

[Nagaraj S]

I am now the owner of a pair of pre-owned KEF R900

You are lucky to get the R900! I had auditioned the R700 years ago at ProFx in Bangalore, and was stunned at their sound stage. The speakers had disappeared and it sounded as if the music was coming off the walls. The speakers were driven by Denon pre and Adcom power amps. But the R series were on their way out and before I could buy, they were discontinued. They would have been most certainly my first preference.

I think the R900 has 8 inch drivers and should do well in the bass department. Adding a sub will further complement your setup for movies. Congratulations and all the best.

 

[greasemonk]

As I am in Mumbai, I got mine directly from MZ Audio. They ship as well.

I just returned from an AV store close to my place, Digital Sound and Vision (http://www.digitalsnv.in/). He called up MZ Audio (he sources from them) and sadly the SR5015 wasnt available. Ended up ordering the Cinema 60. It should be shipped in by the weekend.

I also went to the Vertex Power Solutions head office and placed an order for their AV-specific servo stabilizer. Unfortunately, as there are no 15A plugs near my TV, I ended up going for the 1KVA model.

I should be all set up by Sunday! I wanted to thank everyone on this thread for their posts.

 

[greasemonk]

I'm back! After spending some time with my set up, I am impressed with the R900s. I love how they sound for music and they meet my needs completely in that regard. I did a very unscientific frequency sweep and measured it on my phone using Spectroid. dB drop-off only starts below 40hz which is very much in line with the on-paper specs!


(ignore yellow line)

This has resulted in decent performance in movies as well...but it could use a bit more in action flicks. Yes, yes, you all called it!

I have shortlisted some used-market deals of subwoofers and wanted to run them by you for your inputs.

1. SVS PB-2000 Pro @ 1 lakh
2. REL HT/1205 (the original, not MKII\III) @ 70k

Are these good deals? If so, which one would you chose?

 

[suku_patel_22]

With the open space you have, I would auggest you go for the SVS PB200Pro.

I have a REL HT/1003 MKII, but mine is a living room in an appartment (17*10) and 8 feet away from the screen.