" Made in India" Would you hesitate to buy the brand?

[sachi]

I like to support the local economy whenever possible and I see that most people here are looking for entry level setups and automatically look to Japanese, British and American branded items that are nowadays wholly built in China.

Without wanting this thread to get political, I was wondering how many of you even know that there are homemade alternatives let alone check one or two of them out?

I would love to generate some interest in Made in India items as i truly belive we have a great ear for music and are quite intelligent enough to come up with gear that rival the best in the world. I see no dearth of enthusiasm in the pursuit of audio nirvana among Indian audiophiles in comparison to any other audiophile in the world. Would love to see some banter about designed and build in India audio gear. We have Rethm, Cadence, Lyrita to name a few..am sure there are more..please sound off and share your view as to how we can cultivate the idea of buying Indian isn't so bad, to look beyond resale value, to truly generate wealth amongst our midst..

Hope this post is taken in the right attitude and doesn't offend anyone

 

[malvai]

I like to support the local economy whenever possible and I see that most people here are looking for entry level setups and automatically look to Japanese, British and American branded items that are nowadays wholly built in China.

Without wanting this thread to get political, I was wondering how many of you even know that there are homemade alternatives let alone check one or two of them out?

I would love to generate some interest in Made in India items as i truly belive we have a great ear for music and are quite intelligent enough to come up with gear that rival the best in the world. I see no dearth of enthusiasm in the pursuit of audio nirvana among Indian audiophiles in comparison to any other audiophile in the world. Would love to see some banter about designed and build in India audio gear. We have Rethm, Cadence, Lyrita to name a few..am sure there are more..please sound off and share your view as to how we can cultivate the idea of buying Indian isn't so bad, to look beyond resale value, to truly generate wealth amongst our midst..

Hope this post is taken in the right attitude and doesn't offend anyone

A very deep thought dood...
and an immensely practical one. All you guys out there with the Lyrita's, cadence's and Rethms' can you please stand tall and share your experiences? This would encourage the rest of us fence sitters to convert!

 

[malvai]

In fact, could anyone tell me how much an entry level Lyrita would cost? I have heard a lot about these and might just go in for one as my second set up at work (which I intend upgrading!)

 

[kapvin]

I like to support the local economy whenever possible and I see that most people here are looking for entry level setups and automatically look to Japanese, British and American branded items that are nowadays wholly built in China.

Without wanting this thread to get political, I was wondering how many of you even know that there are homemade alternatives let alone check one or two of them out?

I would love to generate some interest in Made in India items as i truly belive we have a great ear for music and are quite intelligent enough to come up with gear that rival the best in the world. I see no dearth of enthusiasm in the pursuit of audio nirvana among Indian audiophiles in comparison to any other audiophile in the world. Would love to see some banter about designed and build in India audio gear. We have Rethm, Cadence, Lyrita to name a few..am sure there are more..please sound off and share your view as to how we can cultivate the idea of buying Indian isn't so bad, to look beyond resale value, to truly generate wealth amongst our midst..

Hope this post is taken in the right attitude and doesn't offend anyone

+1 to that!

however, while there is excellence, there is almost always inconsistence in quality and there are also a huge number of fly-by-night operators, who are ever ready to rip you off!

the other unfortunate thing in India is the complete ignorance/lack of interest in customer service. just to give you a non hifi example -

"i was looking for a piggyback ecu for my diesel car. now there is a european manufacturer who distributes in india; and there is a homegrown manufacturer based in Bangalore. 1 call to the distributor of the european guy and I have got multiple phonecalls from his people, rightdown to offering to come to my house to install the ECU. the bangalore guy replied to 2 mails (after 2-3 days delay) and then just stopped responding altogether. the contrast is amazing!

I'd buy indian in a heartbeat even if the quality was a little less (but consistent). Mostly, though, I'd worry about "getting a good piece" (Read inconsistent quality) and I'd worry about being taken for a ride (indian products being cheaper abroad than in India!)

 

[sidvee]

My 2 cents - I believe that it boils down to marketing and availability. Most of the Indian brands that I have considered are either not available in my market - Hyderabad (which is the 5th or 6th largest metro in India) - and/or there is no way to get in touch with the manufacturer (no website or website not functional etc) - obviously there are exceptions - but generally my experience holds good. Other than this major issue, I think there are very talented designers and manufacturers in India that can compete quite well against the international brands - now if only they could bring their products to the buyers and market them better - sky's the limit - IMHO.
Cheers
Sid

 

[deba]

I would love to buy Indian made equipments but it should have the built quality / component grade and product finishing like brands of Foreign countries.

 

[anm]

Repeating the general quote "it depends".
First of all, awareness of availability of products from India in this domain is lesser.
Quality is not only a function of your intent, it also needs lots of tools and processes that may not be present with smaller companies. Larger companies can afford to follow same quality procedures even for cheaper products, that they follow for their more expensive products.
Many times even the intent is missing in cheaper products.

A shorter answer, I would be more than ready to invest if I get similar ROI (and that includes trouble free operation, plus decent support in case anything goes wrong) from an Indian product.

On the other hand, I have come across lyrita as a wonderful option for mid range budget - less than a lakh for speaker+amp. Viren is very helpful. And my opinion of Lyrita products is not based on only my personal listening impressions, but based on feedback from very senior members of this forum. All I have purchased directly from Lyrita are some CDs. I did buy a used lyrita preamp from a person in this forum, and the support Viren has provided on a used item, NOT purchased through him, is amazing.

regards

I like to support the local economy whenever possible and I see that most people here are looking for entry level setups and automatically look to Japanese, British and American branded items that are nowadays wholly built in China.

Without wanting this thread to get political, I was wondering how many of you even know that there are homemade alternatives let alone check one or two of them out?

I would love to generate some interest in Made in India items as i truly belive we have a great ear for music and are quite intelligent enough to come up with gear that rival the best in the world. I see no dearth of enthusiasm in the pursuit of audio nirvana among Indian audiophiles in comparison to any other audiophile in the world. Would love to see some banter about designed and build in India audio gear. We have Rethm, Cadence, Lyrita to name a few..am sure there are more..please sound off and share your view as to how we can cultivate the idea of buying Indian isn't so bad, to look beyond resale value, to truly generate wealth amongst our midst..

Hope this post is taken in the right attitude and doesn't offend anyone

 

[shaizada]

Frankly, if the quality and support are there, I'd buy Indian made stuff in a heart beat. In my 10 years plus of living in India and frequent visits since 1996, I'd say things have improved but are nowhere near the quality and after sales support that I expect. It's just a mentality of buyer/seller that has never really evolved... There are baby steps in the right direction, but it's still far from the support and after sales service easily available in the general "western" world.

Just my experience...

A small example, I went to Paalika Bazaar (Delhi) and it was completely nostalgic. NOTHING had changed in the last 13 years...the selling mentality was all the same and the behaviorism's of the shop keepers was just the way I had left it.

 

[mnhegde]

I would love to buy products "Made In India", if the product has good build, good performance and good pricing .

 

[sachi]

Thanks for all the inputs thus far.

It seems that most of us share the same concerns when it comes to buying stereo equipment, desi made or otherwise. The yardstick is the same.
The danger of fly by night operators is ever present, the concept of high end audio is still niche and at a nascent stage in India. However it is indisputable that it is a growing one and with quite enormous potential.


Areas that are importance in no particular order:
1> Consistency
2> Quality
3> After sales support and service
4> Price
5> Availability (Being able to audition it )
6> Performance

anything else?

Do we have more examples of Indian operators that can claim to satisfy at least 4 of those bullet points?

ALso, how crucial do you think brnad equity plays in the Indian audio arena? The aaam admi will undoubtedly gravitate towards shelling out major moolah for that Bose rather for for a Lyrita or cadence..How does one change such perceptions that anything Bose ought o be better than Lyrita, rethm, etc?

One answer is more availability of course, as in showrooms, press, but to spend that kind of money on advertisement isn't the forte of small businesses.

Another problem that comes with expansion and brand recognition is demand and being able to fulfill that. Can Indian companies afford to keep stock of their products, manufacture in bulk..? I don't think the Indian market is evolved enough to warrant that kind of capital but then again I haven't seen any manufacturer step up to the plate and try it..

 

[iaudio]

Sachi, if there is a meritorious Indian product I would never hesitate based on Made in India tag.
I have got a Bajaj bike and I have to say the experience is not very satisfactory. The quality and support side have to improve by leaps and bounds.

 

[venkatcr]

I think all of you are looking at this from the wrong perspective and berating Indian manufacturers unnecessarily.

In an open market like the one we have in India, the issue is basically one of economies of scale. If, let us say, ABC & Co were to decide to make AVRs in India, it will take that company at least 5 to 10 years of bleeding before they can even look at getting some market share. There are number of reasons for this:

1. The integrated circuits needed for manufacture have all to be imported.
2. If you leave out customs duty, the transportation costs of bring parts from outside and assembling here in India would push the cost of the final product up and make it non-viable.
3. To get any scale of manufacture in place, the company has to invest million of dollars in infrastructure for design and manufacture.
4. To top all this is the competition from established players who have years of experience in design, manufacture, distribution, and manufacture.

Believe me, no sane businessman will even think about a venture like this. When Michelin were in discussion for a JV in India, they walked away after a day of discussion. They found the total annual consumption of tyres in India was less than their ONE DAY's production.

Companies such as Hyundai are circumventing this by making India the manufacturing hub for tier 2 or tier 3 products.

The only kind of companies that can survive in the Indian market are boutique manufacturers such as Viren, Audire, etc. I have been discussing this with Sharath to see if he can churn out an amplifier or a DAC as a standard product, but he just does not see the economies of that. For example, he was telling me that to make a decent DAC, his costs per DAC would work out to 20K at the minimum. This can only go down if he can look at a market of 250,000 pieces. That kind of market does not exist.

We should encourage people like Sharath and Viren to work on their special products. But mind you, such products will be expensive. As a buyer we have to build special relationship with these people for both buying and servicing. They will usually be a one man operation being undertake more for passion than anything else. Do not expect a 1-800 number and an automated service centre concept.

Cheers

 

[sachi]

I think all of you are looking at this from the wrong perspective and berating Indian manufacturers unnecessarily.

In an open market like the one we have in India, the issue is basically one of economies of scale. If, let us say, ABC & Co were to decide to make AVRs in India, it will take that company at least 5 to 10 years of bleeding before they can even look at getting some market share. There are number of reasons for this:

1. The integrated circuits needed for manufacture have all to be imported.
2. If you leave out customs duty, the transportation costs of bring parts from outside and assembling here in India would push the cost of the final product up and make it non-viable.
3. To get any scale of manufacture in place, the company has to invest million of dollars in infrastructure for design and manufacture.
4. To top all this is the competition from established players who have years of experience in design, manufacture, distribution, and manufacture.

Believe me, no sane businessman will even think about a venture like this. When Michelin were in discussion for a JV in India, they walked away after a day of discussion. They found the total annual consumption of tyres in India was less than their ONE DAY's production.

Companies such as Hyundai are circumventing this by making India the manufacturing hub for tier 2 or tier 3 products.

The only kind of companies that can survive in the Indian market are boutique manufacturers such as Viren, Audire, etc. I have been discussing this with Sharath to see if he can churn out an amplifier or a DAC as a standard product, but he just does not see the economies of that. For example, he was telling me that to make a decent DAC, his costs per DAC would work out to 20K at the minimum. This can only go down if he can look at a market of 250,000 pieces. That kind of market does not exist.

We should encourage people like Sharath and Viren to work on their special products. But mind you, such products will be expensive. As a buyer we have to build special relationship with these people for both buying and servicing. They will usually be a one man operation being undertake more for passion than anything else. Do not expect a 1-800 number and an automated service centre concept.

Cheers

Venkat, bashing Indian manufacturers is not even remotely the objective of this thread.

It is in fact in the hope that it will spur interest in Indian manufactures that I started this thread.

We understand the economies of scale. Am not talking of an overnight conversion of a small time player into a major multi million dollar operation. Take for example, headroom in the USA. Tyll started it from the grounds up, driving in a van across the country attending various meets building brand equity. The concept of headphone listening wasn't even present before Tyll spread the word around. Look at where we are now headphones wise. Now, one might say that the market is present in the West to get venture capitalists to open their purses to such an endeavor and that might well be true. All I am wondering is why don't we have even an instance of such a thing being tried in India. Without even trying it seems all have surrendered to the notion that it doesn't add up.

 

[mahiruha]

Hi Guys,
let me also join the party with my view on this. From my experience in finace and infrastructure industry I can say it is easy to become an succesfull entrepreneur but very very difficult to turn it into a successful industry.what I mean here for a electronic good to be of good quality so that it becomes acceptable to large number of people it has to satisfy lot of basic parameters.Say

1) Build quality
2) durability
3) customer Care
4) After sales support
5) Good service backup
6) Price
A successful entrepreneur cannot deliver this over a period of time unless he make his venture into a big industry.
What I see that most of the Indian hifi company is very small by size. In my opinion if they want to cater to a larger audience they need to ramp up their productivity which needs more capital.But the problem is how do they really know about the size of the potential market. Another thing is in order to compete with high quality foreign products a company needs to do lot of research to come up with good quality products but that rsearch needs lot of money. What i am trying to say is unless some big company invest lot of cash it is really not posiible to set up a Indian hi fi company which can constantly deliver quality products for ages and attract people to buy them.

If we divert our attention to a slightly different product we can see that we indian can build good product in India which can attract global attention. I am talking about the car Nano. I don't know the details but TATA motors has invested a lot of money in research to come up with a car within a lac of rupee which is acceptable to people. Now the question is why such big companies are not investing to set up a HIFI company beacuse thier internal research says there aren't enough demand in india so they are not interested.

on the other hand there are companies like sonodyne which used to make very good product but couldn't continue doing so beacuse along with lot of other factors I think lack of research. so they diverted thier attention to producing mass market low quality products.I am not too sure how they are doing financially as compared to other major foreign brands in India.

I personally bought this Lyrita system and I am very happy with it. I bought it becuse I heard some good things about it in this forum and it is reasonably priced. My decision was easy since my ear is not that matured and I was ok with the fact if so many good things are said about it then it can't be that bad.The problem is even if I want I can't audition a Lyrita or audire or a cadence in calcutta there simply isn't any avenue to reach them other than relying on references. It is not very healthy I agree but we also have to think about the fact if the manufactures start to make them available in a shop at every city then the products will no longer be cheap ( Becasue of added dealer margin) and we all will have a second thought buying that pricy product. In a way it is a catch 22 situation.

Actully this hifi stuff is a hobby for the majority in a developped nation but for a developping country like india it is just limited to very few people.There are lot other products where big companies can make lot of money by selling them. Unless we see overall economy of our country is imrpoving and most importantly the skewness of the wealth distribution is diminishing I don't see any emergence of big indian hifi brand to take on global giants.
sorry about this long post.
Thanks.

 

[soulforged]

Price & availability

I have hardly come across any knowledgable person bashing an Indian product here for reasons other than its audio/video quality.

I would like to divert the attention to two factors - price and availability of the 'Indian' products.

Most of these products do not have a retail supply chain and are available only locally. I would love to check out Audire but for that I would need to travel all the way to coimbattore.

Most of the manufacturers do not have the right economy of scale to price their product competitvely. Except some of the 'commercial' manufacturers like Sonodyne, Norge and Pulz, most of the products are priced very high.

When compared to the foreign brands, especially in the budget range, the availability are high. Denon, CA, Marantz, Wharfdale etc. are quite easy to source. SInce these products operate in the mass market, they are priced very competitively. Also, since there are multiple vendors hawking them, the consumer gets the benefit of the price battle.

After-sales service is another point to consider, most of the mass market hi-fi equipment do ahve a service network plus there are reputable local service providers as well. With local makers, you mostly would have to cart it back to the maker.

net-net...like the OP mentions, budget/entry-level buyers gravitate towards the NADs and CAs of the game because of (IMHO) the ease of availability and affordability.

For mid to hi-end, I have seen Indian brands like Lyrita, Cadence and Rethm crop up regularly here.

PS: Another point worth considering, when we talk of Indian products, its just amps and speakers. I have not seen any maker of CDPs or TTs...guess this is one place R&D counts the most.

 

[suri]

I like to support the local economy whenever possible and I see that most people here are looking for entry level setups and automatically look to Japanese, British and American branded items that are nowadays wholly built in China.

Without wanting this thread to get political, I was wondering how many of you even know that there are homemade alternatives let alone check one or two of them out?

I would love to generate some interest in Made in India items as i truly belive we have a great ear for music and are quite intelligent enough to come up with gear that rival the best in the world. I see no dearth of enthusiasm in the pursuit of audio nirvana among Indian audiophiles in comparison to any other audiophile in the world. Would love to see some banter about designed and build in India audio gear. We have Rethm, Cadence, Lyrita to name a few..am sure there are more..please sound off and share your view as to how we can cultivate the idea of buying Indian isn't so bad, to look beyond resale value, to truly generate wealth amongst our midst..

Hope this post is taken in the right attitude and doesn't offend anyone

hi sachi, - i think the marketplace is global, and any one consumer , today, does not really bother too much about place of origin of the product.

the consumer has changed and so have indian manufacturers - the marketplace has become global and in the near future, when trade barriers are removed, it will a place where only the best survive.

so, in that sense, i would not hesitate to buy a product made in india.

again, nowadays, most of us buy only after hearing/reading about the experience that other buyers have had.

 

[psychotropic]

I'd echo the concerns that most people have spoken about.

1) Information - Most chaps don't have a website, and if they do they're crappy. Viren's is a notable exception, but even that could look nicer. And why do people hate to show prices? Only profx lists prices in India as far as I know.

2) Availability - Understandably these chaps can't have dealers everywhere. Then at least they should allow you to buy online with a return policy. I have no idea why they can't do that.

3) Support - Like everyone has said. Customer support needs to be there. Again Viren seems to stand out here.

4) Review - Most Indian components have no reviews from reliable sources like 6moons. Indian manufacturers should take the initiative of sending out samples for review, so that there'll be more independent reliable opinions about them.

Anyways, I guess it's still a good thing that there do exist people like Norge, Craftel, Pulz in the budget range and guys like Rethm, Cadence, Lyrita, Audire and Lithos in the not-so-budget range.

If I could get easy information and accesss and auditions of these products, I'd definitely consider buying them.

 

[thevortex]

Sachi - allow me to chip in with my perspective. In matters of passion, such as with a car, a motor bike or for that matter your audio system, country of origin is not anywhere near as important as how much these products delight you with their performance, efficiency, durability and overall appeal.

I am of the strong belief that people buying Tata cars because of some sort of nationalistic appeal are, in the long run, going to regret it and end up blaming the manufacturer. No offense meant to the Tata car owners here - just my own personal views. You buy the car that you like, not the car manufactured in India.

About Hifi manufactured in India, economies of scale and other such information I think mahiruha and venkat have chipped in with valuable comments.

As the market expands and awareness of stereo music and component based systems spreads to the general public, we will experience the effects of the economies of scale. But this is going to take time. There is also the chance that this always remains a niche area - which is very likely. In which case, the cost is not going to be very low. But there is a chance of quality going up. Think of this as the same thing that happens in the market witha luxury product.