A 5.1 (AVR) and 2.1 (2Ch AMP) setup .. Possible and Effective

[hemant0285]

Hii frnds..
Few days back I auditioned AVRs at Mumbai,yamaha V667 and Denon 1911.

Secondly,,
I am completely convinced after reading the Sticky thread
""Stereo vs 5.1 sound, AVR vs 2 Chn Amp, CDP""
and I myself have auditioned the 2 ch AMPs,, tat these are better for Stereo compared to even high end AVRS like d two mentioned above..
What I was thinking that if I could setup a 5.1 setup with the AVR-Yamaha V667 (but not connecting the front speakers to the AVR but connecting all d rest like Centre and 2 rears) and connecting a 2.Ch AMP (Lets say Norge 1000) thru the PRE-OUTS (in case of Yamaha V667). Then connecting the Fronts to the Norge 1000

A simple representation is given below..

I wanted to know while playing a 5.1 movie will d AVR send the front channel sound to AMP and the amp wouldd play the movie sound (fronts) rear and LFE being managed by AVR,,,

And While listening to music from WD (HDMI)
or CD/DVD player (analog connection/composite) will the AMP play 2 channel sound... Considerably better than directly playing thru the AVR.,..

Is it a wise decision to get the AMP for stereo listening or should I skip the AMP and just go with the AVR..
In case I m getting the 2 Ch Amp I hav to go with Yamaha V667 as it has PREOUTS.. else wd be going with Denon 1911...for better cinematic experience..

My Movie:Music usage is 50:50

Advise from all of u wd be of great help..
Thanks
Hemant

 

[hemant0285]

Or would be Pure Direct Mode be enough.. Which is available in both Yamaha V667 and Denon 1911

 

[hemant0285]

????????????????? No relpies...

 

[hemant0285]

please help.....

 

[avidyarthy]

I had explained this to you over pm ... right?

My AVR has zone 2. (I believe pre-outs would function the same way.... just a different nomenclature). I have connected a Norge 1000 to the zone 2 unpowered outlet, which feeds to a different set of speakers placed in another room for music only.

Here, what I could understand, you intend to use the same fronts for music as well as 5.1. So, you would need to select 'bi-amped/wired' front speakers for this.

In my case, I can watch a movie in the main room, and also listen to music in another room thru the Norge amp connected to the zone 2 (or pre-outs).

With what I have understood of your plan, this shan't be possible in your case. Either you can watch a movie or you can listen to music .... one at a time, with only the 5.1 speakers in place.

But, take confirmation from the others here .........

 

[Cnu]

hmm...i feel that its possible to hook up in the way you wanted

there are two things in my mind...

1. Sync problem...since the amplifier needs takes some time to amplify and then sends to speaker...so you need to demo it before u buy it

2. Sound quality ..See all the two channel set up is meant for Quality...since the ambience filled with low distortion by other speakers will add to the sound produced by stero amplifier...& the basic aim is not fully given judgement

3.The Yamaha amp has dolby prologic soft in the basic circuit so pure stereo mode will not be achieved through it....

its all i think at this point...rest depends on u

 

[hemant0285]

I had explained this to you over pm ... right?

My AVR has zone 2. (I believe pre-outs would function the same way.... just a different nomenclature). I have connected a Norge 1000 to the zone 2 unpowered outlet, which feeds to a different set of speakers placed in another room for music only.

Here, what I could understand, you intend to use the same fronts for music as well as 5.1. So, you would need to select 'bi-amped/wired' front speakers for this.

In my case, I can watch a movie in the main room, and also listen to music in another room thru the Norge amp connected to the zone 2 (or pre-outs).

With what I have understood of your plan, this shan't be possible in your case. Either you can watch a movie or you can listen to music .... one at a time, with only the 5.1 speakers in place.

But, take confirmation from the others here .........

I am aware of the Zone 2 thing.. but i want to drive the same speakers for 5.1 when watchin a movie and music.. but not at the same time...BUT why Bi-Amping s necessary??

hmm...i feel that its possible to hook up in the way you wanted

there are two things in my mind...

1. Sync problem...since the amplifier needs takes some time to amplify and then sends to speaker...so you need to demo it before u buy it

2. Sound quality ..See all the two channel set up is meant for Quality...since the ambience filled with low distortion by other speakers will add to the sound produced by stero amplifier...& the basic aim is not fully given judgement

3.The Yamaha amp has dolby prologic soft in the basic circuit so pure stereo mode will not be achieved through it....

its all i think at this point...rest depends on u

Even I feel there wd be SYNC problem and I hav to adjust the volumes in both the amps while watching a 5.1... as the fronts wd be completely driven by the 2 channel amp... connected thru the preouts of the AVR.. So if i raise d volume in d AVR while watchin a movie... only the centre and rear volume wd be raised as the fronts is thru the PRE-Outs....
SO I have to simulataneously raise the 2 ch Amps volume to Match with the increase at the rears and Centre from d AVR....

Regarding sound quality... while playing stereo thru the AVR i hav to set it to Stereo Mode,...Wat Say???

.... Any more suggestions to this

 

[Imrahn]

Am also interested in knowing more about this setup.....also,@OP,i think a power amp should work perfectly rather than an integrated,where the avr acts as the pre-amp.

 

[venkatcr]

At the outset, neither the 667 nor the 1911 is a 'high-end' AVR. At the same time, if tuned and used properly, both these amps would, in my opinion, beat a Norge amp straight away.

In source-pre-amp circuitry let us understand a few things.

The source is critical for quality of music. In other words, a CD Player will always be far better than an average DVD player for music.

Secondly, a lot depends upon where the processing and decoding is done. For example, if you use a DVD player 983, I would decode the sound there and send the audio signals in analogue mode. If I am using a CD on the 983, I would provide a separate audio connection, and use the AVR is stereo or pure direct mode. When using a DVD, I would switch to HDMI or any other digital connection.

Using an integrated two channel amplifier with the AVR acting as a pre-processor is not a good idea. As someone else suggested, you should use an external power amplifier instead. If you are going to use a integrated amplifier, you might as well connect it directly to the source and use it's own capabilities for pre- and power amplification.

If you need to use the same pair of speakers with two amps, a simple mechanical switch will provide much better results.

Cheers

 

[avidyarthy]

Ok, Hemant ... this is the difference, I think.

My AVR zone 2 is just a plain outlet of analogue signal. One would need to feed this signal to an integrated amp. Whereas, pre-outs would already have amplified or controlled the outputs to the required levels to be fed to a power amp.

Only your front speakers would need to have the bi-amp facility. One feed from the AVR, and the other from the separate amp taking signals from your AVR pre-out.

"A lot would depend on the quality of signals from the pre-outs of the AVR". Close to 90% of the music quality issues are governed here. Unpowered zone 2, with an added integrated amp or a pre/power combo 'could' sound superior.

Kindly ask for suggestions from venkatcr ......

 

[hemant0285]

Thanks venkat and avidyrathy for continuing the discussion.......

.................. I would decode the sound there and send the audio signals in analogue mode. If I am using a CD on the 983, I would provide a separate audio connection, and use the AVR is stereo or pure direct mode. When using a DVD, I would switch to HDMI or any other digital connection.

Using an integrated two channel amplifier with the AVR acting as a pre-processor is not a good idea. As someone else suggested, you should use an external power amplifier instead. If you are going to use a integrated amplifier, you might as well connect it directly to the source and use it's own capabilities for pre- and power amplification.

Cheers

If I Use the AMP separately...I need to buy separate speakers...Until and unless (AS given below by avidyarthy...'If and only IF Bi-Amping solves this issue... then it wd be great..........

Only your front speakers would need to have the bi-amp facility. One feed from the AVR, and the other from the separate amp taking signals from your AVR pre-out.

"A lot would depend on the quality of signals from the pre-outs of the AVR". Close to 90% of the music quality issues are governed here.
Unpowered zone 2, with an added integrated amp or a pre/power combo 'could' sound superior.....

I agree with u avidyarthy tat having a different zone for music with separate speakers is always a great idea... but my point is >... I dont want to go for separate speakers...
Are you sure... Tat the Bi-Amp-ed speakers (Fronts)
can be connected by two diff sources?? one from the AVR and other from the Amp (AVR Preout>>AMP>>Speaker)
??
If this kind of biamping solves d purpose I am ready to go in for Biamping capable speakers...

 

[avidyarthy]

Are you sure... Tat the Bi-Amp-ed speakers (Fronts)
can be connected by two diff sources?? one from the AVR and other from the Amp (AVR Preout>>AMP>>Speaker)
??
If this kind of biamping solves d purpose I am ready to go in for Biamping capable speakers...

Frankly, I am not sure. But, logically, very much possible.
You would need to take a confirmation from the others here, regarding this.

 

[venkatcr]

You are getting confused here. First, even if you use Zone 2, remember you are using the same electronics. What zone 2 does is to cut two channels from the main zone and provide amplification into the second zone.

Bi-amping is a different baby where you use two separate amplifiers to drive bass and treble/tweeters within the same speakers independently. You can do this only with speakers that have bi-amping capabilities.

You can drive the same speakers with two different amplifiers using a simple mechanical switch. Generally keeping the music and movies sound separate does provide better quality of music. Even an amp such as Norge would perform better if used separately as a pre/amp combination.

Cheers

 

[Imrahn]

^^but what if the AVR already has pre-outs? Won't it be better to drive the front pair using a power amp through the pre-outs , so that more power is available in stereo mode as well as surround modes?

Say, if the avr is a 40WPC 6channel one,the specs when driven in Stereo and Surround would be like
Stereo: 40W x 2
All channels driven: 40W x 5 = 200W

But, if the front speakers are connected to a 100WPC power amp via the pre-outs, now, the specs would look something like
Stereo: 100W x 2
All channels driven: (100W x 2) + (40W x 3) = 320W

Is my assumption correct?If so, i hope the OP has his answer.

 

[hemant0285]

^^but what if the AVR already has pre-outs? Won't it be better to drive the front pair using a power amp through the pre-outs , so that more power is available in stereo mode as well as surround modes?

Say, if the avr is a 40WPC 6channel one,the specs when driven in Stereo and Surround would be like
Stereo: 40W x 2
All channels driven: 40W x 5 = 200W

But, if the front speakers are connected to a 100WPC power amp via the pre-outs, now, the specs would look something like
Stereo: 100W x 2
All channels driven: (100W x 2) + (40W x 3) = 320W

Is my assumption correct?If so, i hope the OP has his answer.

Yes....M also trying to explain d same thing Imrahn...
The thing is tat .....Will it work out or not??

 

[Imrahn]

^^I think that is exactly why a pre-out is there in an AVR-so that it can act as a pre-amp and let the power handled by external power amp.But i will wait for the experts here to comment.Me too is interested in the same as my avr is Yamaha 663 and it has 7(or 5) channel pre-outs. I would love to pair a power amp to drive the fronts,keeping the avr as the pre.

Regards

Imrahn

 

[avidyarthy]

Yes, very much true.

When it is a pre from the AVR, it means, one can control strength of the signal feed (in other words, volume control). You can easily connect a power amp here.

In the zone 2 of 'my' AVR, there is no pre-amplication present. It is just the nominal signal strength. So, to control volume, I have either to connect an integrated amplifier (which is what I am doing at present) or have a preamp + Power amp before the speakers.

With this arrangement, I can watch a movie in the main room with 5.1, while play music in another room, using anything at my disposal ie. TT, deck, tuner ....... simultaneously, using the same AVR.

However, since my DVDp is connected by HDMI cable to the AVR, am not able to hear CD source in the zone 2 since it would be digital signals received at the integrated amp inlet. Of course can add an external DAC to make it operational for CD, but would unnecessarily complicate the entire scheme as the other analogue sources would become redundant in the simple scheme. I do not mind CD music 'hear' in the main room.

 

[venkatcr]

^^but what if the AVR already has pre-outs? Won't it be better to drive the front pair using a power amp through the pre-outs , so that more power is available in stereo mode as well as surround modes?

Say, if the avr is a 40WPC 6channel one,the specs when driven in Stereo and Surround would be like
Stereo: 40W x 2
All channels driven: 40W x 5 = 200W

But, if the front speakers are connected to a 100WPC power amp via the pre-outs, now, the specs would look something like
Stereo: 100W x 2
All channels driven: (100W x 2) + (40W x 3) = 320W

Is my assumption correct?If so, i hope the OP has his answer.

Though your calculations are correct, the assumption that more power is available in surround mode is not correct. An AVR has 5 or 7 independent amplifiers. Just because you are not using two of them does not mean that the power of those amps will be available to other channels. Those two power amps will just stay unused.

The only way that four amplifiers can be used for two speakers is when you bi-amp the front speakers. When you do this in an 7.1 AVR, the power of the rear channels are diverted to the front speakers.

Please use the pre-out of an AVR to either add more muscle to all channels, or to just the front channels. If you want to change the quality of the sound, you have to look at other ways.

Cheers

 

[jagdish_p]

Wow lots of discussions! VenkatCR has already explained all the key technicals- I will only elaborate.

a) In a 5.1 set up if the AVR volume is adjusted the Preout levels also get adjusted hence there is no need to adjust the Amp volume again. (I did the calibration with Amp volume set at 11 O Clock position)

b) Biamping a speaker: As Venkat explained this involves splitting the drivers with in the same speaker box to two different amplifier streams and driving them simultaneously. From what I understood, you were referring to driving the speakers either through AVR or though the Amplifier by giving a parallel connection. This should be attempted only if you have a mechanical selector switch as Venkat suggested, else you can damage the speaker drivers if both are switched on simultaneously.

Finally I would like to share my experience with 5.1 Channel vs. 2 Channel for Music:

I have a similar set up as described by Hemant with an important addition of the ability to connect the Integrated Amplifier directly to source music completely eliminating the AVR.
The music source: OGG/Flac/High Bit mp3 on HDD - > Xtreamer -> Cambridge DAC Magic-> Integrated Amp Azur 650A -> Front Speakers.

To my ears the improvement in Music Sound Quality with above set up is minimal compared to routing from Xtreamer to AVR in Pure Direct mode. (The AVR does the digital to Analogue conversion in this case). Havent tried connecting AVR through DAC Magic.

I feel that additional amplifier set up for 2 channel music should be attempted only if you have a dedicated home theater room with good acoustics. (In my case I have set this up in the living room with out any sound treatment to the room and hence am not able to perceive the SQ).

Hemant: Are you planning to add the AVR to an existing Stereo Amp set up like I did?
If you plan to purchase both that it is essential that you also think of where the DAC is going to happen. You will need a high end DVD/CD player to truly bring out the sound Quality. Else you are better off with a simple AVR set up with out the 2 channel Amplifier for the fronts.

 

[jagdish_p]

^^but what if the AVR already has pre-outs? Won't it be better to drive the front pair using a power amp through the pre-outs , so that more power is available in stereo mode as well as surround modes?

Say, if the avr is a 40WPC 6channel one,the specs when driven in Stereo and Surround would be like
Stereo: 40W x 2
All channels driven: 40W x 5 = 200W

But, if the front speakers are connected to a 100WPC power amp via the pre-outs, now, the specs would look something like
Stereo: 100W x 2
All channels driven: (100W x 2) + (40W x 3) = 320W

Is my assumption correct?If so, i hope the OP has his answer.

I feel that Stereo:40WX2= 80 W (RMS) is sufficient power for a closed room home use. 200 W of power can be used only in an open space !