Speakers for low volume Listening

[harshad]

Hi All,

I recently assembled my first Stereo Setup(thanks to Hifivison)...
PC with Xonar STX > Yamaha AS500 > Wharfedale 10.1.

While I really like the system at considerably loud volumes, I feel they are lil lifeless (lacking punch) at moderate to low volumes. Its not tht they are bad, just tht don't sing as good as at higher volumes. I am sure many would like to listen to their setups at night w/o waking up neighbors or people within the house.

I have heard the M-Audio AV 40 Active(with internal amp) Speakers. Though they were very sweet and good at low volumes, they are meant for near field listening with a very narrow sweet spot.

So was wondering what are the factors which make a good system for low volume listening. Is it the speaker sensitivity? Size of the speakers/drivers? Max power ratings(should be lesser)? Or is it dependent on the amp? Or is an active near field setup the only solution? Or is it too much to ask for?

Anybody who feels their setup is good for low volume listening, please share their setup

Cheers,
Harshad

 

[Sunderpalanivel]

yes to an extent speakers are important, but its mostly down to the Receiver. High current Amps are very clear and deep at low volume.

 

[utkarsh]

Hi All,

I recently assembled my first Stereo Setup(thanks to Hifivison)...
PC with Xonar STX > Yamaha AS500 > Wharfedale 10.1.

While I really like the system at considerably loud volumes, I feel they are lil lifeless (lacking punch) at moderate to low volumes. Its not tht they are bad, just tht don't sing as good as at higher volumes. I am sure many would like to listen to their setups at night w/o waking up neighbors or people within the house.

I have heard the M-Audio AV 40 Active(with internal amp) Speakers. Though they were very sweet and good at low volumes, they are meant for near field listening with a very narrow sweet spot.

So was wondering what are the factors which make a good system for low volume listening. Is it the speaker sensitivity? Size of the speakers/drivers? Max power ratings(should be lesser)? Or is it dependent on the amp? Or is an active near field setup the only solution? Or is it too much to ask for?

Anybody who feels their setup is good for low volume listening, please share their setup

Cheers,
Harshad

You need a good AMP or Receiver for low volume listening like Denon 1912 ,Marantz SR5005 ,6005

 

[S.P.KRISHNA]

You reqire a good and powerful amp with speakers rated equal to or less than the amp with sensitivity 100 db approx.

 

[moktan]

my amp is rated just 30W but i am more than satisfied with the 'low volume' listening experience that it provides...

 

[ruenigma]

@moktan: At 2500$ it'd be surprise if it did not. We are talking budget components here, these "might" not be as good at handling power as a well engineered equipment costing 5 times as much.

 

[corElement]

The low volume has nothing to do with the AMP.

It's the sensitivity/efficiency of the speaker.

You need to dump the 10.1's and get something that's more sensitive, preferably full range.

 

[harshad]

Thanks guys. So I gather.. Sensitivity is one of the factors to consider. Will surely keep in mind for the next upgrade .

 

[alpha1]

You will not be satisfied with anything.

What you experience is the property of ear (rather brain).
With louder volume - the bass and lower mids sound louder than what they sound at lower volume (compared to other parts of spectrum like high mid-range, treble).

Read more about Equal Loudness contours: Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So what is the way out?
Either get an EQ that compensates for this, or get a speaker which is bass and low mid heavy = very warm speaker.

But the problem with new speaker is that you may not like this speaker at louder volumes! (because it will sound too tubby and boomy)

The simplest answer is EQ : If you have an amp / receiver - press the "loud/silent/quiet" mode. That will boost the bass frequencies and treble - somewhat close to what I was suggesting.

***
Actual EQ to compensate will be a polynomial curve with higher compensation at lower frequencies - say +12dB at 120 Hz, +6dB at 240 Hz, +3 dB at 480 dB



Edit: sensitivity will not help you at low sound volume. Sensitivity only helps you with producing loud volume even with low power output from the amp.
Remember speaker sensitivity is measured as dB measured at 1m per watt of power at 1kHz frequency.
Volume = dB.

 

[Flash]

The low volume has nothing to do with the AMP.
It's the sensitivity/efficiency of the speaker.

Can you please elaborate

Sensitivity / efficiency of a speaker will not necessarily produce better detail at lower volumes.

 

[Sunderpalanivel]

Can you please elaborate

Sensitivity / efficiency of a speaker will not necessarily produce better detail at lower volumes.

I agree, high current AMP is what is needed for low volume clarity

 

[BLASTO]

If you drive the speakers at higher than rated watts, ie amp with a huge headroom, you will get details at low volumes. Bass needs artificial boosting at low volumes as someone else said because at lower and lower volumes we are designed to hear freqs around human voice better.

 

[tirthankar]

There have been enough good inputs. I just thought I'll chip in too.

I think the primary factor here is how well the amp controls the speaker. This is a product of the current delivery of the amp, its damping factor (ie how well the amp moves and stops a driver,to say simply) and the driver stiffness of the speakers. An inefficient speaker will need a higher current delivery and damping factor from the amp for better control.

A high current amp with tight output impedance will have a good damping factor and supply good amount of current in lower volumes as well..think tube or class a or a well engineered solid state. At higher volumes speaker control will be better for all amps, but as current delivery falls at lower volumes, speaker control also suffers... and this is especially noticeable in budget amps.

My two annas..open to correction and criticism.

 

[Flash]

There have been enough good inputs. I just thought I'll chip in too.

I think the primary factor here is how well the amp controls the speaker. This is a product of the current delivery of the amp, its damping factor (ie how well the amp moves and stops a driver,to say simply) and the driver stiffness of the speakers. An inefficient speaker will need a higher current delivery and damping factor from the amp for better control.

A high current amp with tight output impedance will have a good damping factor and supply good amount of current in lower volumes as well..think tube or class a or a well engineered solid state. At higher volumes speaker control will be better for all amps, but as current delivery falls at lower volumes, speaker control also suffers... and this is especially noticeable in budget amps.

My two annas..open to correction and criticism.

Your posts deserves no correction or criticism ..... Spot On mate :clapping::clapping:

 

[corElement]

Edit: sensitivity will not help you at low sound volume. Sensitivity only helps you with producing loud volume even with low power output from the amp.
Remember speaker sensitivity is measured as dB measured at 1m per watt of power at 1kHz frequency.
Volume = dB.

Can you please elaborate

Sensitivity / efficiency of a speaker will not necessarily produce better detail at lower volumes.

My experience comes from the same situation the OP is stuck in.

I used a 89dB Sensitivity speaker and an 86dB Sensitivity speaker (e700 bookshelf) in real world circumstance side by side connected to the same amp on speaker A + B zones with the exact same parameters with both at volume X

At first I could not understand what was going on because the 86 db sensitivity speaker's refused to open up at the same volume where the 89db sensitivity speaker was beautifully open and articulate.

I increased the db level for zone B to which the 86 db speakers were connected by, 9db. Only after this did the 86db speaker start to produce details and sound similar to the 89db sensitivity speaker. Mind you this is nowhere near the max volume of the amp, this is around -40db on a -90 to 0db scale (Which I consider to be low volume)
(Later I learnt 3db on amp equated to approximately 1db of speaker sensitivity so 9 db+ brought it from 86 to 89db feed, which why after 9db it matched the 89db speaker from zone A)

The Wharfedale is 86db sensitivity which is very very inefficient and I can very well imagine why at low volumes it is performing poorly.

@OP

I've been in the same position as you, take my word for it, get a bookshelf that's around 89/90/91db sensitivity.

In theory what I've written above is just -40db+9db but regardless, 90db is a standard every speaker should aim for as a minimum.
While it's true lower sensitvity speakers can have longer voice coils and deeper bass, it does not apply for budget speakers. 86db at 12000 INR is just plain inefficient.


Take a look at the Cambridge Audio s30 bookshelves, while it may be from around the 8000Rs price range, it's 90db and got 5 stars from what hifi and received a lot of praise for detail in their sound. You might lose out on bass though.

 

[Flash]

My experience comes from the same situation the OP is stuck in.

I used a 89dB Sensitivity speaker and an 86dB Sensitivity speaker (e700 bookshelf) in real world circumstance side by side connected to the same amp on speaker A + B zones with the exact same parameters with both at volume X
At first I could not understand what was going. The 86 db sensitivity speaker's refused to open up at the same volume where the 89db sensitivity speaker was beautifully open and articulate.

If the volume pod was at let say 9oclock position for both speakers . The 89db speaker will sound louder and open when compared to the 86db speaker as the 86 db would require more power/current flowing into it

So at a low volume if a 89db speaker requires 10 watts to open up a 86db may require 30 watts to open up - But the in room db's will be the same.

This is where the Amp plays a important role and not sensitivity of the speaker.

Take for example a scenario where there is a 86db speaker and its connected to a 50watt amp and the in room decibels are at a lowish 85db. the speaker may sound lifeless and dull.
Change the Amp and put in a 150 watt amp or a high current Tube amp at the same room reference point of 85db. the speaker will sound like a completely different animal and will sound open/airy

The reason why pricey 200 - 300 - 500 Solid State watt amps exist for home users is not because of how loud they can go. its because what the extra current can do the speaker in question whether a sensitive one or inefficient one

Look at most highly acclaimed bookshelves and most fall in the category of 84-88db and it has nothing to do with fidelity at lower volumes or higher volumes.

 

[harshad]

@tirthankar
Thanks for your input. You have kind of answered my question.. "what makes a a system which sounds good at lower volumes". But as you also mentioned my budget amp may not be exactly good for this purpose. Would love to hear a tube or class A amp to see the difference.

@corElement
Thanks a lot. Exactly what I wanted to hear. Somebody you has done a A and B comparison. Will surely keep this in mind.

Also, personally I feel.. as some of the users have commented, an amp having a rating much higher than speaker does help (I guess they can control the speakers much better).

Overall, Its good learning. thanks guys..

 

[corElement]

If the volume pod was at let say 9oclock position for both speakers . The 89db speaker will sound louder and open when compared to the 86db speaker as the 86 db would require more power/current flowing into it

So at a low volume if a 89db speaker requires 10 watts to open up a 86db may require 30 watts to open up - But the in room db's will be the same.

This is where the Amp plays a important role and not sensitivity of the speaker.

Take for example a scenario where there is a 86db speaker and its connected to a 50watt amp and the in room decibels are at a lowish 85db. the speaker may sound lifeless and dull.
Change the Amp and put in a 150 watt amp or a high current Tube amp at the same room reference point of 85db. the speaker will sound like a completely different animal and will sound open/airy

The reason why pricey 200 - 300 - 500 Solid State watt amps exist for home users is not because of how loud they can go. its because what the extra current can do the speaker in question whether a sensitive one or inefficient one

Look at most highly acclaimed bookshelves and most fall in the category of 84-88db and it has nothing to do with fidelity at lower volumes or higher volumes.

That's a completely different topic though. You're going way up the food chain.

In this OP's situation he has outright inefficient speakers.
There's a difference between inefficient and insufficient. What you're talking about is when there is insufficient power.

I'm talking about the wharfedale's inefficiency
Inefficiency is where power is wasted. Insufficiency is when there is not enough power.

To compensate for his inefficiency he either has to replace his speakers or the amp.

Because the key fact here is both the amp and speaker are contributing to the issue and it can only be resolved by

Either getting a different amp that can drive the inefficient wharfedale's at low volume (Which is a difficult proposition and requires a lot of research)

Or You get a better quality, more efficient pair of bookshelves.

In this case he has the option of a relatively affordable bookshelf with the s30 at the 90db mark to achieve the goal he wants or do research into an amp with the ability to drive the inefficient 10.1's.

 

[Flash]

Coreelement .... lol ...you win ...

PS-
I have a 88db BS, a 92db BS, a 90db FS, built several 85-86 db BS as well. and over the past 15 years owned several active and passive BS right from Jamo, fisher, Teac, Jbl's etc to lowly Akai's , Sansui's and there are some other names which i don't even remember

Detail at lower volumes especially bass response(lifeless - lacks punch) which the op mentioned in the first post has absolutely nothing to do with sensitivity of the speakers

can you guarantee that if the op changes his speaker to the s30 and if mated with the Yam 500 would produce the Punch that he desires at lower volumes or is it an assumption ?

 

[pupupuchi28]

The simplest answer is EQ : If you have an amp / receiver - press the "loud/silent/quiet" mode. That will boost the bass frequencies and treble - somewhat close to what I was suggesting.

Without getting into some controversial discussion and few 'out of line' discussion over here, what Alpha suggested is THE answer. Alternatively if you have a software based dsp solution / dynamic range control (since you are using a PC) use it. Searching over internet to understand what these two features (or for that matter 'loudness') does to a sound.