Power cables - am bewildered!

[keith_correa]

So I've been wondering [which in itself is dangerous becoz Keith and wondering don't go well together] about fancy power cords. People claim that power cords make a difference. OK so here's the "wondering" part. The feed from the transformer to the junction boxes in our homes and the miles of feed to the transformer most likely use aluminium or at best non fancy and OFC [Oxygen FILLED] copper. Then it arrives to the switches through who knows what wire at home. And then for the last mile [feet actually] people claim that fancy pants cables make a difference? How?? Elaborate shielding! OFC copper! Braiding techniques! EMI & RFI prevention techniques! I can understand that the purpose of these techniques is to eliminate "garbage" getting in from the switch connections till it reaches the equipment BUT what about the "garbage" that is getting in till the point of the switch? Do all of these techniques actually eliminate that "garbage" that is already in there and exists at the point of the switch?

I totally get it that if there were power "conditioners" employed - the power is "conditioned" and then it would make sense to use a fancy pants cable from the "conditioner" to the equipment but if not, what is the point???

 

[arj]

yup..they make no difference so no sense arguing or wasting your money.
long discussion here
here
here
etc etc

lots more to be googled as every forum worth its salt has one.
..better to read than start our own thread where nothing fruitful comes up

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

People say, given the miles between the power station and the amplifier, what difference can the last metre make? Then I heard someone say that, from the amplifier's point of view, it is the first metre! Clever. Makes one think. But having thought, I still don't believe it --- but hey, I have friends that do.

Use good cable, rated for at least the power it will have to carry. If it doesn't sound better, at least it will not burn your house down.

Use good plugs and sockets. Good contact area and good grip. My theory would be that, for Indian-style plugs, the large round 15-amp would be better than the small round 5-amp (I tend to get those numbers wrong, but you know what I mean). Make sure that the springs in the sockets are gripping well. These are all things that can be done without entering into the realms of superstition or audiophoolery. One step further would be to clean the plug prongs occasionally. I have never known al electrical device to stop working because of that build up of oxide, but I understand that it is non-conductive, so it can't do any harm to get rid of it.

 

[john_k_antony]

So I've been wondering [which in itself is dangerous becoz Keith and wondering don't go well together] about fancy power cords. People claim that power cords make a difference. OK so here's the "wondering" part. The feed from the transformer to the junction boxes in our homes and the miles of feed to the transformer most likely use aluminium or at best non fancy and OFC [Oxygen FILLED] copper. Then it arrives to the switches through who knows what wire at home. And then for the last mile [feet actually] people claim that fancy pants cables make a difference? How?? Elaborate shielding! OFC copper! Braiding techniques! EMI & RFI techniques! I can understand that the purpose of these techniques is to eliminate "garbage" getting in from the switch connections till it reaches the equipment BUT what about the "garbage" that is getting in till the point of the switch? Do all of these techniques actually eliminate that "garbage" that is already in there and exists at the point of the switch?

I totally get it that if there were power "conditioners" employed - the power is "conditioned" and then it would make sense to use a fancy pants cable from the "conditioner" to the equipment but if not, what is the point???

Dude,

I had the EXACTLY same doubts and confusion . But lots of veteran audiophiles do say that it makes a difference. But I still can't beleive them.

So at my home, I invested my money on a power conditioner - Vertex audio grade 3KVA stabilizer and using the stock power cables that came with my equipment - Oppo 105 BDP and Denon 2310 AVR, . I think I am getting excellent results and I am very happy, except for one thing - Vertex makes some relay sound when there is a heavy fluctuation. I am okay with that because it happens very rare.

However only for my tube amp, I am planning to get a good power cable done by Mr Murthy (Tools and Trades, Bangalore). This cable will be connected between Vertex and the amp. I think that this would help reducing the potential transformer hum in the tube amp. Murthy's cables are very high end and doesn't cost a bomb. I am already using his highly raved speaker cables and ICs and they are SOLID performers.

Thanks,
John.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I think that this would help reducing the potential transformer hum in the tube amp.

I think you should solve that "potential" problem if and when it becomes a real one! :lol:.

 

[Shivam]

I use a power conditioner and good cables from the power conditioner to equipment. I don't hear any significant difference.
(The power supply is quite clean in my home, I guess)

The power conditioner makes me feel comfortable since it has protection from high and low voltages (cut off) and some other protective features too. One thing that I have noticed is that I don't hear interference from mobile phone when it rings, not sure how it relates to power conditioner and good cables though.

 

[ghatgepatil]

People say, given the miles between the power station and the amplifier, what difference can the last metre make? Then I heard someone say that, from the amplifier's point of view, it is the first metre! Clever. Makes one think. But having thought, I still don't believe it --- but hey, I have friends that do.

Use good cable, rated for at least the power it will have to carry. If it doesn't sound better, at least it will not burn your house down.

Use good plugs and sockets. Good contact area and good grip. My theory would be that, for Indian-style plugs, the large round 15-amp would be better than the small round 5-amp (I tend to get those numbers wrong, but you know what I mean). Make sure that the springs in the sockets are gripping well. These are all things that can be done without entering into the realms of superstition or audiophoolery. One step further would be to clean the plug prongs occasionally. I have never known al electrical device to stop working because of that build up of oxide, but I understand that it is non-conductive, so it can't do any harm to get rid of it.

You are quite correct with these observations/actions. This is ALL that one generally requires to do for fault-free operation in the long term. Yes, an addition of an over-capacity electronic stabilizer would make it fool-proof, to take care of the very high and low voltage supply, by shutting down the entire system as the ultimate over-riding system by-pass.

 

[Hiten]

Don't worry Keith bro, days of audiophile misery will soon be over.
I am working on secret device which gets rid of power, speaker, interconnect cords. It is so secret even I had to keep myself out of knowing it. Just one tiny miny obstacle is I need $ 10 K for R & D.

Even better is for 20 K I can sing cover versions of songs one wants to hear. (can cover Tom Waits too :lol This practically gets rid of source, amps and speakers.
Regards.

 

[nishikant]

When one spends big money to buy these expensive cables his mind starts playing tricks and he starts hearing improvements. This is not just limited to power cables but other interconnections too.

 

[sidvee]

yup..they make no difference so no sense arguing or wasting your money.

Good one Arj. I agree 100%
Cheers,
Sid

 

[keith_correa]

No one is arguing. Yet. Even if someone is, as long as its healthy, it is welcome.
And, I did not want to know whether they work or not. That was never what was asked for.

So in the opinion of people on this forum who know/think that power cables make a difference, how do you think it works given what I said in the first post.

 

[keith_correa]

Everything else being equal including good S2S contacts, if I used Al plugs as opposed to Copper or Brass - would they make a +ve sonic/audible difference? If yes, why?

 

[arj]

So in the opinion of people on this forum who know/think that power cables make a difference, how do you think it works given what I said in the first post.

Unfortunately in this forum you will get a small no of people with some experience who may or may not post and whole lot of people with opinions who will most definitely post

My suggestion: You could search posts In audio asylum . Folks like duster and john risch and quite a few others who not just have a view but a view backed by experiments and knowledge .

Maybe you could post some of them here ?

 

[keith_correa]

Unfortunately in this forum you will get a small no of people with some experience who may or may not post and whole lot of people with opinions who will most definitely post

My suggestion: You could search posts In audio asylum . Folks like duster and john risch and quite a few others who not just have a view but a view backed by experiments and knowledge .

Maybe you could post some of them here ?

I do not doubt that the techniques that are employed to create a "audiophile" power cord are baseless and have no effect. And in Cable Asylum there are numerous threads/posts by Jon Risch, Duster, Steve Eddy and the likes who have perfectly good recipes backed by sound theory/experiments. That's as far as the cable is viewed in isolation. BUT I have yet to see a post which explains how an "audiophile" cable mitigates the issue of "garbage" already in the line that may have come in till the point of the switch. If you have come across a post that explains this, I would appreciate if you point me to it.

 

[arj]

I get your doubt and have no clue either. I just relied on my own limited choices and experiences from folks I know to choose what sounded best to me.. Some folks find no difference and some do and since the experience also varies , power at that last stretch must have some impact !

Same reason I guess music sounds different in the day and at night as the power supplied is different

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

You are quite correct with these observations/actions. This is ALL that one generally requires to do for fault-free operation in the long term. Yes, an addition of an over-capacity electronic stabilizer would make it fool-proof, to take care of the very high and low voltage supply, by shutting down the entire system as the ultimate over-riding system by-pass.

I use a power conditioner and good cables from the power conditioner to equipment. I don't hear any significant difference.
(The power supply is quite clean in my home, I guess)

The power conditioner makes me feel comfortable since it has protection from high and low voltages (cut off) and some other protective features too. One thing that I have noticed is that I don't hear interference from mobile phone when it rings, not sure how it relates to power conditioner and good cables though.

Just about everything I've ever read from hifi designers/engineers says that if [eg] an amplifier's power supply section cannot handle the mains power coming into it then it is badly designed and a bad product. But they do not live in India

Whilst even what-are-called-developed-nations suffer from spikes, brown-outs, etc etc, I doubt that many have the wide variations in voltages and faults that we experience. Due to phase problems in the street, I had 450v, with live current on neutral too, at my sockets one day. I lost one small electrical gadget to this, thankfully nothing else was unprotected and turned on and, thank god, the hifi equipment was not even plugged in. Never mind standby-modes, I never even plug in when not in use.

Even if we don't go for conditioning, we need protection.

Another thing is that I have seen local power leads with conductors so thin they are more like earphone leads . Of course, this is for cheap, low-power stuff, but it does make one wonder what is inside supposedly-better sealed-plug leads!

Everything else being equal including good S2S contacts, if I used Al plugs as opposed to Copper or Brass - would they make a +ve sonic/audible difference? If yes, why?

Also, to be honest, clueless . My sense is that you need good conductors and good connections. So why Aluminium? It is softer, it has a much lower melting point (you might be able to melt a small piece over a gas ring; you won't get copper past red heat) so it will disintegrate (with possible fire hazard) sooner if stuff does go wrong, and it is not as good a conductor as copper. I think its cheaper, too (which is why the power actually comes into many of our houses over Al), so that's a bad point for audiophiles

Same reason I guess music sounds different in the day and at night as the power supplied is different

A day and night difference! :lol:

In some countries, and in the cooler parts of India, better, more consistent voltage might play a part in this, but I suspect that lower ambient noise and different mind states play the biggest part in this.

Actually, here, the power supply is [currently] worse at night! On a bad night, the voltage is low enough to dim the lights and power cuts are frequent. People who live without it all day turn on the AC at night. I speak as an owl!

 

[arj]

A day and night difference! :lol:

In some countries, and in the cooler parts of India, better, more consistent voltage might play a part in this, but I suspect that lower ambient noise and different mind states play the biggest part in this.

Actually, here, the power supply is [currently] worse at night! On a bad night, the voltage is low enough to dim the lights and power cuts are frequent. I speak as an owl!

I don't think only the voltage matters..what matters is the waveform , phase diff .. frequency as well.
In the night, I belive the frequency is much better ( other than of course the ambient noise) but have never measured it.

I do use a regenerator and have played with changing the voltage and the frequency and the impact of frequency can be felt but voltage differences is not really palpable in terms of sound

Power quality is obvious and impacts hugely and can be heard with and without the regenerator.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Interesting. Voltage is easy to "measure" just by looking at the tube light, with a little more accuracy coming from the information that my UPS sends to the computer. In extremes, if I really feel I need to know, I get out the meter. Other power aspects are more hidden, and probably require more knowledge than I have anyway.

What's you "regenerator?" Does this mean that you are electrically isolated from the mains supply? (a brain cell suggests that you have written about this, maybe on one of the power thread, but it doesn't go so far as producing an actual memory )

 

[arj]

Interesting. Voltage is easy to "measure" just by looking at the tube light, with a little more accuracy coming from the information that my UPS sends to the computer. In extremes, if I really feel I need to know, I get out the meter. Other power aspects are more hidden, and probably require more knowledge than I have anyway.

What's you "regenerator?" Does this mean that you are electrically isolated from the mains supply? (a brain cell suggests that you have written about this, maybe on one of the power thread, but it doesn't go so far as producing an actual memory )

Yes Thad, you presume right
its by Monarchy Audio and upto 100W does a pure sinewave output.

it has an option to change the frequency either as 50Hz or in multiples of 60Hz...and power from 220-240.

The principle is simple..it generates a pure sinewave signal and them amplifies that. while change on frequency does seem to change the tonality, voltage difference hardly shows up..at least I cannot hear anything
I use it for my TT and my Digital..and leave the amp out of it since the amp loses micro-dynamics when on it. But with the Digital component its is phenomenal..and since it isolates the analogue section from the digital section the impact is a double +ve whammy.

 

[keith_correa]

<snip>and leave the amp out of it since the amp loses micro-dynamics when on it.<snip>

Very interesting.

<snip>But with the Digital component its is phenomenal..and since it isolates the analogue section from the digital section the impact is a double +ve whammy..<snip>

How is the isolation achieved? Batteries? When you say "section", I presume you mean equipment, right? And I do not understand why isolation would make a difference, do you?