24 bit Vinyl rips compared to original vinyl sound

Rupam

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I don't have a vinyl set up but I do like to get a taste of vinyl sound. Theres lot of vinyl track rips available as Flac 24-bit / 96kHz Vinyl Rip. I just want to know from them who has vinyl set up, does these tracks sound exactly like the vinyl ?

Thanks .....
 
depends on the source material. if these are from LP's made in the 70's or earlier, then yes, they'll give you a taste of vinyl.

If these are modern recordings, you are better off with the digital originals
 
I'm not comparing them with the original. People often say that vinyl sound better than digital. If thats true, then I would like to compare them with CD.
 
Probably going to venture into another vinyl vs digital argument, but personally I have not perceived any great difference, especially commensurate with the increased size for these 24/96 rips.

Probably, because they are all taken from the same source.
 
Rupam, the vinyl vs CD vs Digital arguments can never be concluded in favour of one side or the other. The choices are, to a large extent, personal. Each side will come with 100s of pros and cons for each.

Ultimately you have to listen to each and decide.

Let me throw a few points for and against each. Some of these are extracted from Myths (Vinyl) - Hydrogenaudio Knowledgebase that was posted by Thad in another thread.

1. CD is the original 'digital' sound. In the early stages of sound recording, most music master were stored on tapes. These were then transferred to tapes or vinyl. The issue was that the masters themselves used to loose their sign to noise ratio because of the inherent fault of the equipment - tape hiss, static noise, etc. In the late 1970s, almost all recording were done and stored in digital format on hard disks. Irrespective of how many time you made copies, nothing would be added or removed from the original sound. The easiest was to make a digital copy of the digital original. Thus was born the CD. Since the 1970s, manufacturers have fine tuned the recorders and players to maximize frequency width as well as the digital to analogue conversion. A decent CD player attached to a good DAC will give you sound that is very close to the master. People do talk to jitter, but that has been settled long time ago. Modern CD players have removed all audible jitter.

2. Digital format is simply storing what is on the CD on a hard drive. When playing there is no degradation of sound irrespective of how many times you play it. There is no noise added, unless there is a fault in the equipment. You can never lose the song, unless the HD crashes.

3. Both CD and digital are 'digital'. In other words, the original analogue sound is converted to digital data, and reconverted for playback. There are arguments that this conversion looses a lot of the original sound. Nyquist Shannon sampling theorem defines the digital singal processing needed to maximize the bridge between continuous signals (analalogue domain) and discreet signals (digital domain). Properly done, the Fourier transforms of the mathematical functions are ZERO outside of a finite reqion of frequencies. Within that region, it is well nigh impossible to make out the difference. Nyquist started with 20-20000 Hz, but modern signal processing have gone well beyond that on both sides. If you increase the sampling rate, you can club the discreet signals so close to each other that is will be impossible to differentiate from the original analogue curve. When you talk about 24 bit and all that, in essence, you are defining how close the discreet signals are to each other.

4. A vinyl gives you analogue signals. There is no conversion. And, to a lot of people, that is the beauty of vinyl. These people feel that once you convert music from one format to another, it loses it's soul, depth, essence and a lot of other factors.

The issues with vinyl are (1) You need good players; (2) Vinyl does add it's own noise as you play the same record multiple times - this is called wow and flutter that, to large extent, is audible; (3) Vinyl needs a lot of love and care in terms of storage, cleaning, and even playing. But people do love doing that in return for the music that they get from the system.

In reality, you have to listen to the same song in both digital and vinyl formats keeping everything else the same to decide which one you like. If you not heard vinyl at all, you must listen and decide for yourself.

Cheers
 
I am into both digital and Vinyl at the moment.

I do have some vinyl rips and actual vinyl.
Playing Vinyl is heavily dependent on the actual vinyl setup (TT, phono stage, cart and of course the vinyl condition)

Somehow when I play the ripped digital version it is not as "wholesome" (inventing my one word here... but you get it) or "full bodied" as the digital rip.
The digital rip itself sounds better than the CD counterpart if properly done.

I think sound quality is just one factor, but you need to ask are you ready to take the pain to maintain the Vinyl and TT - it is a labour of love. But if you are committed then it can be very rewarding else very frustrating to deal with :)

Up-till now I find it very interesting and worth it.
 
Although I do not yet have a working Vinyl based music system but I already had reason to go for it.
It is to get music of those times when CD were not there or were in its developing stage.
If you like old music, you should try for vinyl setup.

As I am maturing in age and perception of music, I find music of yesteryears are more musical and they bring more emotional joy of living a human life. Those music stay with me. Today's songs, compositions last little in my memory and feelings.

Vinyl helps me getting old songs which are rare to find in shops, internet. Buying some one's record collection is like getting a ready meal (for a bachelor).
 
I'm not comparing them with the original. People often say that vinyl sound better than digital. If thats true, then I would like to compare them with CD.

My experience - digital versions of old analog recordings are inferior to the originals.
Similarly analog versions of recent digital recordings are just as bad.

If you like older music, and want to listen to it the way it was meant to be listened, go vinyl. Else stick to digital
 
If you like older music, and want to listen to it the way it was meant to be listened, go vinyl. Else stick to digital

A very broad and sweeping statement that is also completely wrong seeing back in the vinyl days there did not exist equipment or microphones to capture everything that was actually taking place either in the studio or even in a live setting.

No offence to anybody, if you like vinyl then by all means stick with it, just don't make it out to be something that it is clearly not.
 
A very broad and sweeping statement that is also completely wrong seeing back in the vinyl days there did not exist equipment or microphones to capture everything that was actually taking place either in the studio or even in a live setting.

No offence to anybody, if you like vinyl then by all means stick with it, just don't make it out to be something that it is clearly not.

I've outlined my views here
http://www.hifivision.com/av-lounge/54964-digital-can-bad-vinyl.html#post625704

I did not mean that as a broad generalization - rather what my experience has shown to be true.
If you still think there is something wrong, I'd appreciate a specific reason why.
 
I've outlined my views here
http://www.hifivision.com/av-lounge/54964-digital-can-bad-vinyl.html#post625704

I did not mean that as a broad generalization - rather what my experience has shown to be true.
If you still think there is something wrong, I'd appreciate a specific reason why.

Like you, most of my listening is from the 60s and 70s and therein lies the problem that until the mid-1980s there did not exist equipment to capture every sound, nuance, etc. that was being played live or in the studio. In other words no 100% reproduction whatsoever, a practical impossibility in fact because 100% capture was not possible. That said, there is no guarantee that all the music recorded from the mid-1980s did use state of the art studio equipment or microphones to capture every single detail and that is what audiophiles allude to right? Music with nothing being added to it, played live. That pretty much crosses out all music recorded before their existed equipment to record/capture everything and also there is no guarantee that music today is recorded on such equipment either. That pretty much itself tosses out of the park arguments for equipment that plays audiophile a.k.a. "live or as created" music.

If music was captured in its entirety (as in on state of the art equipment) and vinyl pressings are made from such master tapes then we can even begin to consider a format war. Unfortunately though most vinyl recordings are made from bad CD pressings or compressed master tapes and hence the argument that vinyl captures everything or even plays everything itself is a "practical impossibility" for the most part.

Hence my argument against "to listen to it the way it was meant to be listened, go vinyl." Probably only live music achieves that 100% of the time.

Now I'm not saying that vinyl is bad, I listen to it a fair bit myself though I prefer digital and especially PC playback myself.

If people like the vinyl sound then that is perfectly fine and absolutely nothing wrong with it, but not because vinyl is 100% of the reproduction (of the actual music as it was created), but more so because vinyl (IMHO) probably colors the music. Nothing wrong with this either, like I said I like music on the PC and especially with the EQ on rock. I use rock on the equaliser setting even for movies played on PotPlayer. Likewise, folks prefer the vinyl sound and that is perfectly all right, but that does not make vinyl do something that digital music or an audio CD does not or cannot. I have stated this previously too, you can pretty much replicate any sound on the PC by changing the equaliser. As you are aware, there even exist plug-ins for the vinyl sound.

Unfortunately, in the format war we make everything to be all or nothing, something that is impossible as not all music is even captured 100% the way it is being played so where is the question of reproducing it 100%.

To use another analogy, I love photography and spend quite a bit of time and money on it. Unfortunately, no camera equipment can ever capture things as they really are, there is always either overexposure or underexposure. That said it is easily corrected with "photo processing", the use of software, HDR mode, etc. Modern equipment does this on the fly, but the best work is done with the hlep of software like Adobe. Now I will be the first to admit photos come out really well after using Adobe, but that's not showing the picture as it really is, if anything it is creating what's not there i.e. coloring it. Some of the best photographs I've seen are "touched" up by HDR software or Adobe. Not a bad thing necessarily but certainly not the poster child for distortion free or captured live.

I think that pretty much sums up where I come from. To even begin claiming that any format delivers 100%, we need to make sure it was captured 100% in the first place and that the actual production of the vinyl or the CD comes from these master tapes. Pretty certain nobody has access to them anymore... I remember reading the studios had locked them up and pretty much forgotten all about them a long time back. In this scenario pretty much everything is "colored" sound, and thus short of all claims of 100% reproduction without missing anything. Maybe vinyl misses less than an audio CD, maybe not, it does not really bother me as long as the music gets my foot tapping and changes my mood for the better and that's what music is really about.

PS - Good to share and dissucss with someone who is willing to listen and even consider the other party, unlike making everything "my way or the highway".
 
My point is not analogue vs Digital, poor digital recording (like most of T-series hindi movies) sounds even worse than vinyl.
Since I don't have a vinyl set up, I just want to know if I can get a taste of Vinyl by using 24 bit Vinyl rips available on internet.
I'm not taking about digital remastering, these rips contains all the noises of vinyl sound.
According to vinyl lovers Vinyl sounds more organic while CD sounds more digital. Well, this may be true but for old songs (mono) vinyl may be sufficient but digital format (and that includes not only CD, SACD, LD, DVD, DVD-A, BD) does have benefit of better sound.

I think people like vinyl more because vinyl offers a more tactile experience, some see this as a huge draw. It makes them feel more interactive and involved with their music. Its a psychological thing.

For example, I can not read e-books, I can read only printed books, even if it is torn, dirty and photocopied !
 
Since I don't have a vinyl set up, I just want to know if I can get a taste of Vinyl by using 24 bit Vinyl rips available on internet.

In one word - no.

Its only a case of d/l content with more MB or even GB, but the SQ itself does not sound anything like vinyl. That said with the right equipment the 24/96 rips have more "volume" or "atmosphere" than the audio CD versions, but it takes a trained ear and proper equipment to even get there.
 
If people like the vinyl sound then that is perfectly fine and absolutely nothing wrong with it, but not because vinyl is 100% of the reproduction (of the actual music as it was created), but more so because vinyl (IMHO) probably colors the music. Nothing wrong with this either, like I said I like music on the PC and especially with the EQ on rock. I use rock on the equaliser setting even for movies played on PotPlayer. Likewise, folks prefer the vinyl sound and that is perfectly all right, but that does not make vinyl do something that digital music or an audio CD does not or cannot. I have stated this previously too, you can pretty much replicate any sound on the PC by changing the equaliser. As you are aware, there even exist plug-ins for the vinyl sound.

Unfortunately, in the format war we make everything to be all or nothing, something that is impossible as not all music is even captured 100% the way it is being played so where is the question of reproducing it 100%.

To use another analogy, I love photography and spend quite a bit of time and money on it. Unfortunately, no camera equipment can ever capture things as they really are, there is always either overexposure or underexposure. That said it is easily corrected with "photo processing", the use of software, HDR mode, etc. Modern equipment does this on the fly, but the best work is done with the hlep of software like Adobe. Now I will be the first to admit photos come out really well after using Adobe, but that's not showing the picture as it really is, if anything it is creating what's not there i.e. coloring it. Some of the best photographs I've seen are "touched" up by HDR software or Adobe. Not a bad thing necessarily but certainly not the poster child for distortion free or captured live.

I think that pretty much sums up where I come from. To even begin claiming that any format delivers 100%, we need to make sure it was captured 100% in the first place and that the actual production of the vinyl or the CD comes from these master tapes. Pretty certain nobody has access to them anymore... I remember reading the studios had locked them up and pretty much forgotten all about them a long time back. In this scenario pretty much everything is "colored" sound, and thus short of all claims of 100% reproduction without missing anything. Maybe vinyl misses less than an audio CD, maybe not, it does not really bother me as long as the music gets my foot tapping and changes my mood for the better and that's what music is really about.

PS - Good to share and dissucss with someone who is willing to listen and even consider the other party, unlike making everything "my way or the highway".


The main point of 100% reproduction of original sound not only depends on the medium ie: vinyl. It a chain of system which counts:
The recording equipment -> mastering -> recording -> medium (cd casstte tape vinyl ) -> player -> hifi system -> room acoustics -> a good ear.
 
Rupam, my 2 cents that might help you decide.
My experience:-
1. Of all mediums I have used till now Vinyl scores very high and has the best "Physical" touch and feel.
2. Vinyls are costly to source as compared to digital
3. Quality of Vinyls dictates overall SQ. I have double copies of same vinyl. One copy plays with lots of clicks and pops while other is mint condition. So some maintenance needs to be done. You need to clean the vinly. (I enjoy cleaning vinyl - but only to a limit! cleaning 10-15 vinyls can be back breaking work.)
4. Most of the Vinyl I listen to has clicks and pops as most of my collection is pre-owned due to my musical preference. But once the music starts playing I automatically focus on the music and ignore the clicks/pops. Music takes precedence over the noise. Even if there is noise the attention does not go there unless there are lots of clicks/pops.

There could be many ways to look at vinyl:
1. As an Audiophile - expectation that it will sound better!
2. As a Collector - you can get enjoyment collecting records. Every time you "score" a record there is a sense of fulfillment and achievement. This can be taken to great length and sky is the limit.
3. As a student of music and nostalgia - Every Vinyl record is a snapshot of history. I love to view the cover art which states the date of print, where it was printed, artists, graphics, etc.
4. Exploring new music - I came to know many artists that I never know of or would have cared to know about. It can be a good learning experience.

So you can see the same medium can be approached from various angles.
A simple thumb rule can be:
If for instant gratification and short term - Avoid!
If for long term satisfaction and hobby and exploration - go for it!

Based on my personal experience (which I prefer over others recommendations, I would request even you to follow your own experience by listening to some live Vinyl setup at friends place :) ) I am convinced that Vinyl actually carries more music on it and proper setup is very important to enjoy it to the fullest. A good vinyl will scale from a very basic setup to a high end setup without becoming the bottleneck. The trick is in getting that music out in the best possible manner.

Cheers and Kind Regards!
 
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musicbee
In one word - no.

Its only a case of d/l content with more MB or even GB, but the SQ itself does not sound anything like vinyl.
My question is why ?

That said with the right equipment the 24/96 rips have more "volume" or "atmosphere" than the audio CD versions, but it takes a trained ear and proper equipment to even get there.

...............................
 
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Thanks dear, I will check it.

I used to read a lot on the net before that just lead to more and more confusion and more inaction! :D

Now I just prefer being in good company and trying out things. That way we make mistakes and learn for ourselves but learning and "unlearning" is the key to true knowledge especially when at least I have grown up post the golden age of Analog audio :)
 
My question is why ?
...............................

Call it the law of diminishing returns

To appreciate the difference between a 4 GB rip of a Blu-ray and a 20 GB or a 40 GB rip you will need something like a 120 inch screen. The difference cannot be seen on a 6 inch mobile, a 9 inch tablet, a 22 inch monitor or even a 60 inch plasma. Only a videophile will probably make that claim of seeing something that is not there akin to audiophiles claiming one format is better or delivers more sound.

The concept of MP3 is to remove content that cannot be heard or will not be missed, like 2 instruments playing at the same time and we can completely eliminate the instrument or sound that cannot be heard anyways.

Now this will probably not go well with everyone, but properly done MP3s actually do sound very good and most folks will not be able to pick the difference between an MP3 and an audio CD. Please note I'm talking of properly done MP3 rips as in using VBR and 320 kbps and more. I have tested this with blind testing, random testing, call it what you want, etc.

The same way I have also tested 4 GB rips vs 10 GB rips and 15 GB rips on a 60 inch plasma that pretty much nobody could see the difference between the various rips. Nothing wrong with people, and if anything this only proves how good technological advances are and how good compression technology really is.

So to really appreciate 24/96 rips you probably need golden ears or high end equipment that will really show the difference or maybe a combination of both.
 
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