60 hz vs 120 hz

[manjunath.forum.all]

hi all,
starting this thread to get some info on 60hz tv vs 120hz tv.
reason to start is : there are 2 models of LG LV 2011 series
3730 ( has 60hz ) and 5500 ( has 120 hz ).
1. wanted to find out if it is worth paying 10-15 more just because the tv is 120hz.
2. is there very very noticable or irritating exp watching hd movies using 60 hz tv.
I plan to use tv for lot of HD movies ( regular )and gaming ( occassional).

 

[Rajathslr]

Manjunath...
5500 is superior to 3730 is what i feel,
Not only trumotion, Dyanamic contrast ratio and response time of 5500 is better compared to 3730...
I dont no whether 3730 has DLNA/bluetooth compatibility...

http://www.lg.com/in/common/compare...&BURL=/in/tv-audio-video/led-lcd-tv/index.jsp

 

[drkaushik]

Definitely as film watching would involve fast moving objects. I own the LG 32 LED 5500. It's a gem of a TV.

 

[reignofchaos]

100/120Hz is useless for movies. Its good only for sports. In movies which are natively 24Hz, any sort of frame interpolation ruins the inherent 24Hz judder and gives movies a soap opera look.

 

[manjunath.forum.all]

thanks all,
92 views and 3 replies, hmmmm.
i see a lot of them favour 120hz. (other forums too).
i am looking for more responses from hifivision members. Hope to get more responses

 

[haisaikat]

100/120Hz is useless for movies. Its good only for sports. In movies which are natively 24Hz, any sort of frame interpolation ruins the inherent 24Hz judder and gives movies a soap opera look.

@reignofchaos: This is not always correct. I guess 120Hz refresh rate and Frame Extrapolation techniques like motion flow are not the same thing. If you hate soap opera effect you can turn off motionflow only keeping the refresh rate 120 Hz. For instance a higher refresh rate would mean that you will not have to withstand the 3:2 pulldown.

@manjunath: there is lot of content on HFV on this, you can search the older threads.

 

[adder]

Some of the best 100/120hz/ 200hz tvs can improve or achieve 1080lines of motion resolution without the soap opera effect.

 

[prankey]

If you disable Motionflow the refresh rate will most probably be 60Hz unless the TV is capable of a refresh rate of 120Hz even without Motionflow... Nevertheless.. I agree on 3:2 pull down benefit... however that can happen on a 60Hz TV (converted to 48Hz). without motionflow I STRONGLY feel the TV will perform just like a 60Hz TV. So its best to buy a 60Hz model if you don't want the "soap opera" effect (I personally love it as judders fatigue my eyes a lot).

 

[manjunath.forum.all]

thanks all for the reply. i feel my question is misunderstoood.
the question is not about motion flow. The question is a HD TV 60hz or 120 hz (assume no motion flow technology is available in HDTV).
in such cases will the pq of hd movies have a noticeable difference when watched in 60hz and 120hz.
After a lot of online checking, i noticed there is not much noticable difference.
i will still wait for some more comments before i can finalize on the LG LV HDTV.
if the diff between the 2 was 5-6 k i would not have cared. the price diff is 10-15k. hence a bit reluctant to shed money on 120hz

 

[haisaikat]

in a 120Hz tv without motionflow I believe there will be less judder as compared to 60 Hz.

you need to check if your tv supports 48Hz / 24 Hz for avoiding 3:2 pulldown.

Moreover on the internet I found a mixed set of feedbacks regarding turning off motionflow as some said that it turns off 100Hz and some said it does not. I had the idea that it does not turn off the 100Hz since that is native to the panel. However please check this with any BRAVIA owner.

 

[prankey]

in a 120Hz tv without motionflow I believe there will be less judder as compared to 60 Hz.

you need to check if your tv supports 48Hz / 24 Hz for avoiding 3:2 pulldown.

Moreover on the internet I found a mixed set of feedbacks regarding turning off motionflow as some said that it turns off 100Hz and some said it does not. I had the idea that it does not turn off the 100Hz since that is native to the panel. However please check this with any BRAVIA owner.

Even I was confused initially.. However what I have understood now is that only when you enable motionflow, 100/200Hz PROCESSING kicks in... Refresh rate of the panel may still be natively 50 or 60Hz as it anyway do not support an input more than that... Only some recent 3D TVs have true (again, forced) 100/200Hz panels to support high refresh rate needed for 3D glasses to be reasonably flicker free...

 

[longshanks]

I don't think 100/120hz/ 200hz will reduce judder by itself.

On the other hand judger reduction algorithms are combined with 100/120hz/ 200hz refresh rates as a single option such motion flow bla bla and when it is turned on it takes away the film judger apart from adding 100/120hz/ 200hz refresh rates.

What 100/120hz/ 200hz is useful for is to reduce flicker which reduces eye strain while watching television specially while watching sports.

Judder is reduced by combining the high refresh rate with pull down and even in that case it wont be a true 24 fps play back.

 

[reignofchaos]

@reignofchaos: This is not always correct. I guess 120Hz refresh rate and Frame Extrapolation techniques like motion flow are not the same thing. If you hate soap opera effect you can turn off motionflow only keeping the refresh rate 120 Hz. For instance a higher refresh rate would mean that you will not have to withstand the 3:2 pulldown.

@manjunath: there is lot of content on HFV on this, you can search the older threads.

If there's frame interpolation, there has to be atleast 100Hz/120Hz support. They go hand in hand. On my Philips 9703, which had the best motion resolution of its time on LCDs, I prefer the judder of feeding 24p and not having motion interpolation turned on. Also I don't think its possible to have 100/120 without motion interpotion.

Some of the best 100/120hz/ 200hz tvs can improve or achieve 1080lines of motion resolution without the soap opera effect.

Honestly I haven't seen an LCD which doesn't have the soap opera effect with 100/120Hz. Before you say, yes I've seen the 2011 Sony/Samsungs and they still have the same feel.

in a 120Hz tv without motionflow I believe there will be less judder as compared to 60 Hz.

you need to check if your tv supports 48Hz / 24 Hz for avoiding 3:2 pulldown.

Moreover on the internet I found a mixed set of feedbacks regarding turning off motionflow as some said that it turns off 100Hz and some said it does not. I had the idea that it does not turn off the 100Hz since that is native to the panel. However please check this with any BRAVIA owner.

No motion interpolation = no 100/120Hz unless the tv does frame doubling which is lame.

 

[haisaikat]

@reignofchaos and @prankey: Can you please check this link which states that in some panels it is indeed possible to turn off frame interpolation without reducing refresh rates? This may not be possible in the models that you guys own but there seems to be some models where it is claimed to be possible. However I could not search and find such instances. May be if someone owns such models in this forums they can comment.

A Solution to the Dreaded Soap Opera Effect? | HD Guru

 

[buswal]

Hi,

The TV telecast in india is not even 60 hz, it is exactly 58 hz. Hence the 120 hz, 200 hz, 600 hz etc are sale gimmicks according to a sales manager, I met in the recent past in a show room, when I went to purchase a TV.

Experts may be able to shed more light in this regard.

cheers,

 

[reignofchaos]

@reignofchaos and @prankey: Can you please check this link which states that in some panels it is indeed possible to turn off frame interpolation without reducing refresh rates? This may not be possible in the models that you guys own but there seems to be some models where it is claimed to be possible. However I could not search and find such instances. May be if someone owns such models in this forums they can comment.

A Solution to the Dreaded Soap Opera Effect? | HD Guru

If you check what the article says, it mentions some tv's support frame doubling i.e. repeating the same frame twice. This is absolutely useless since it doesn't improve motion resolution at all which is the primary reason to have 100/120Hz.

 

[adder]

Honestly I haven't seen an LCD which doesn't have the soap opera effect with 100/120Hz. Before you say, yes I've seen the 2011 Sony/Samsungs and they still have the same feel.
.

While they may not be 100% free of this ,but they are very very good.
Since you have seen the 2011 models my guess is you must have seen the EX720 .Did you try setting it in clear or clear plus it doesn't look much different from Motionflow Off apart from the luminance drop,where as the other options clearly show the SOE.

 

[manjunath.forum.all]

well well well,
thanks all folks for the info sharing. From the internet blogs and this thread, i have decided to go ahead with 60hz HD TV. i dont see a great deal of benefit ( or rather noticeable benefit) with 120hz tv.
I am working on purchasing LG LV 3500 or LV 3730. i will post once i get more details.

Almost forgot, i heard from a friend that in a huge MNC, a lot of employees communicated among themselves and went ahead with group purchase of HDTV ( i think samsung). wow, group buy all over now.

 

[prankey]

If there's frame interpolation, there has to be atleast 100Hz/120Hz support.

Dude, before 100/200Hz models were introduced (4 years back), there still was frame interpolation and judder reduction algorithms like in my Samsung, they are called "Movie Plus" which does frame doubling in the sense 50/60Hz signals contain 25/30 deinterlaced frames... So it first do deinterlacing, do motion interpolation while dejuddering the motion before interpolation (there is nothing as frame interpolation as interpolation happens through injecting artificial pixels on a motion component only). This algorithm is useful both in reducing judders (results vary on different source or different TV channels), however it significantly reduces combing during deinterlacing due to artificial insertion of pixels and also can reduce motion blur and blockiness (or pixellation as some of us say) from lossy (compressed sources).

So we can say that earlier on some models, we did have "Motion plus 50/60Hz" which essentially give motion resolution equivalent of a 50/60Hz source and is roughly half as effective than 100/120Hz and 1/4th as 200Hz (true 200Hz as in Samsung and Sony and not LG which does 100Hz interpolation and 200Hz backlight blinking and call it "TruMotion 200Hz"). It seems once 100Hz models were introduced, they faced out dejudder and motion compensation from those 60Hz displays.

Hi,

The TV telecast in india is not even 60 hz, it is exactly 58 hz.

Where did you get this info? It 50Hz and NOT 58Hz... That is the reason we have a multiplier of 2 and 4 as 100 and 200 Hz respectively in India while in US its 120 and 240.

well well well,
thanks all folks for the info sharing. From the internet blogs and this thread, i have decided to go ahead with 60hz HD TV. i dont see a great deal of benefit ( or rather noticeable benefit) with 120hz tv.
I am working on purchasing LG LV 3500 or LV 3730. i will post once i get more details.

Almost forgot, i heard from a friend that in a huge MNC, a lot of employees communicated among themselves and went ahead with group purchase of HDTV ( i think samsung). wow, group buy all over now.

Manjunath, I would advice you to go with LCD models especially of Samsung or Sony as they seems to have better panels and features. Also, don't go with the hype of LED as they do not do much other than reducing depth and mildly reduce power consumption. I personally prefer regular CCFL "BACKLIT" LCD rather than those silly "Edge lit" or even "Full LED" models as I can very well see backlight bleeding, clouding, LED brightness changes (both in local dimming and full backlight dimming models) and prefer consistent brightness and contrast on a CCFL backlit models. This will also save you another few grands!

 

[haisaikat]

If you check what the article says, it mentions some tv's support frame doubling i.e. repeating the same frame twice. This is absolutely useless since it doesn't improve motion resolution at all which is the primary reason to have 100/120Hz.

My intent in pointing to this article was to project that 120Hz is possible without frame interpolation at least somewhere in the universe however useless it may be to some of us.