A sign of things to come
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ajinkya
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Another sign of things to come?
Mumbai girl wins International Physics Olympiad
Very happy she won. Ironical that she is going to MIT, when we were just discussing the hows and whys of life and education in India and abroad. If we keep losing our best minds abroad, India will never rise. A country needs its people to survive. And I squarely blame the Indian educational system for this state of affairs, as well as Govt. short-sightedness.
Mumbai girl wins International Physics Olympiad
Very happy she won. Ironical that she is going to MIT, when we were just discussing the hows and whys of life and education in India and abroad. If we keep losing our best minds abroad, India will never rise. A country needs its people to survive. And I squarely blame the Indian educational system for this state of affairs, as well as Govt. short-sightedness.
Look at what she says, "Noam Chomsky is not a scientist, but he practically invented modern linguistics. He is so multi-faceted. I hope to work with him when I go to MIT. There are so many problems in the world to be solved. It may not be finding a solution to the world energy crisis, but even a simple thing that can make a small difference to peoples' lives, that will be it," said Akanksha.
There are so many facets to what a person wants. Suddenly the world's problems have become more important. What about the 100 crore people who all, in a small way, helped her reach where she is. The school, colleges, and even the trip to Croatia were funded by the sweat and tears of Indians, including her parents.
I am not sure it is the education, but I certainly blame our governments. Even IIT is a shame to the country. The country subsidies the education in IITs, and for what? To be used in the US? Can we not pass a rule that a person who passes out of IIT work in India for at least 10 years before leaving the country. We are, in a way, funding the prosperity of the US.
Cheers
There are so many facets to what a person wants. Suddenly the world's problems have become more important. What about the 100 crore people who all, in a small way, helped her reach where she is. The school, colleges, and even the trip to Croatia were funded by the sweat and tears of Indians, including her parents.
I am not sure it is the education, but I certainly blame our governments. Even IIT is a shame to the country. The country subsidies the education in IITs, and for what? To be used in the US? Can we not pass a rule that a person who passes out of IIT work in India for at least 10 years before leaving the country. We are, in a way, funding the prosperity of the US.
Cheers
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hehehheheeeeehhehehehheeheheheheheheeeeeehhehhehee!!!!
a picture saves(having to say/type) many words - !
EDIT - looks like a resident south of the vindhyas - eh? - not borneo surely!
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svenkateshsmart
Well-Known Member
Hi,
+1 to that. Actually, the guys go for IAS, IFS, IPS look like something else in front of those who go for IIT,IIM, etc.
After all while everyone has a right they do have a duty in return! There is no right without a duty!
The most funniest part is that they have students exchange program; I dont see anyone stay and work here for obvious reasons, nor our students who do their education there return to India!
Also, under CG's directions, all government banks must oblige to sanction loan for students who get admission in IIT or IIM. I am sure with the fee structure in IIM, most of the students avail loan and dont care to pay them back! I am that is a privilege they get from government, than other students who need to obtain surety or some collateral security, etc.
Cheers!
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I don't understand this. Was her trip to Croatia funded by the government? Or was her education funded by govt? Or are you talking about the intangible benefits that one derives from the society one lives in and thus has the obligation to repay some of it?
Why not put that restriction on students going abroad from non-IITs as well? Or at least make it proportional to the subsidy one gets for their education?
I heard during the recent attacks in Australia that around 100000 indian students are in Australia (don't remember if it is per year number or the total). Apparently many of them go to do certificate courses in cooking, flying etc. Don't they need to return the favor to their country too before going abroad?
Or should we put such restrictions only on smart students?
I would say at least in this case, the student is not using indian govt money to do her degree in IIT. By going to MIT, she is saving Indian tax payers' money.
Absolutely.
I was only referring to IIT as that was the institute in discussion. This of course refers to all forms of higher education. You may be surprised to lean how much subsidy and funding the IIT/IIMs get from both Indian and foreign governments. At least the foreign governments ensure that they get back some of their investment.
If you look at institutes such as Harvard, Stanford and MIT, they have a program by which they keep track of all students who pass out. When the students reach some position, not only do they have to contribute part of the earnings back to the institute, they also have to use some of their connections and positions to help new students. The ex-students also have to provide research ideas as well as fund the ideas, When these ideas are commercialised, the institutes get a part of the pie. There is no interference from the government, other than of course funding some research.
Menlo College in California has similar programs where the old students actually helps the college get new and bright students. And you know what? Nearly 50% of the students there are from India. My son, when he was looking for a seat in California, was offered a seat in Menlo College carte blanche with credits and funding. How did they find out? Through the US visa system.
The Indian government with it's arcane ideas and short sight does not do any such thing nor does it allow allow the institutes to do things themselves. When one of the IIT students actually offered a large sum of money to IIT Bombay, he was laughed at and drummed out of the country. When I used to meet the HOD of Comp Science at IIT/M, he always used to advice me to leave India and go to the US. And in spite of all their intelligence, they were not interested nor capable of writing a small intelligent code that I wanted in a hurry. I even offered them funding for it. This code was supposed to enable one to connect two fully working terminals with applications to a single Windows 98 without any networking! My boys wrote the software in just a few weeks.
We give away some 500 crores to a Singapore party for cleaning our rivers, when IIT Madras has been crying hoarse they have the technology.
I can give thousand of such examples.
It pains me to see intelligent people abandoning this country continuously, and not give back anything. Do you know that FE remittance is more from the poor labourers in the Middle East than from any other Indians in any part of world. And they send the money as they have to support their families. Whatever may be the reason, they are more patriotic.
Cheers
You make it sound like these universities make it mandatory for all its students to do something back to their college. I can assure you that there is no such thing. The students are free to help the college after they pass out of and many of them do. The students don't have any obligations especially after paying 30K+ USD per year in fees. You can call it a tradition/culture of these universities and their students (the one that is very much derided in this thread of course).
Don't know what your point here is. That IIT/M grads are not capable of doing practical things? Or non-IIT grads (the ones you refer to as your boys) can do things that IIT grads cannot/would not do. You wont find me disagree with the latter as there are thousands of real life examples.
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server3249
Member
Don't know what you got yourself into, but there's no such rule for alumni.
It all ultimately comes down to this- If India hasn't made it worthwhile to keep such people here, the people will not bother. If the rule that you want is actually passed, IITs will become a joke, and will get third rate students (or worse).
Rule, custom, process - whatever you call it, it really does not matter. It is basically a system by which you give back to your school, college, and society some of the advantages you derive from the education you got.
Given the number of IIT students who stay back in India and do something useful for the country, I would say the quality of students makes no difference to India in any case.
Cheers
Given the number of IIT students who stay back in India and do something useful for the country, I would say the quality of students makes no difference to India in any case.
Cheers
Its a cycle really. Lets not lose sight of that fact. If you want the country to be livable, comfy, safe and secure, one has got to do some work and make it that.
Reading American history is always enlightening. One reading of how lands around Texas, Oklahoma etc were populated and worked on should open our eyes. They worked hard. Harder than most. And were always, unremittingly proud of who they were and their nation. And that definitely is one of the reasons why they are where they are today.
If we leave India because it is not good enough, it will always remain that way. If we help make India better, then it will be better. It will take time. It will take sweat and time. But it will be better.
Reading American history is always enlightening. One reading of how lands around Texas, Oklahoma etc were populated and worked on should open our eyes. They worked hard. Harder than most. And were always, unremittingly proud of who they were and their nation. And that definitely is one of the reasons why they are where they are today.
If we leave India because it is not good enough, it will always remain that way. If we help make India better, then it will be better. It will take time. It will take sweat and time. But it will be better.
What you say is very correct.
I would like to add one thing:
There is a very very crucial point that differentiates the USA from India or even any other country. It is the fact that the USA was built and based on very strong libertarian principles. This libertarian (read as personal liberty) ethos resulted in America being the land of the free, land of the brave, non-interference of the government in business, capitalism, survival of the fittest etc. It allowed people to succeed on the basis of their merit, not on the basis of their family connection, caste, religion, etc.
This fundamental reason has attracted people from all over the world to the USA. They know it is very tough to get into USA and even tougher to survive and become successful. However, they gladly take the opportunity that gives control of destiny in their own hands instead of some "mai-baap" controlling every aspect of their lives.
I digressed to make a very important point. If you want educated and successful Indians to work hard (they're already working hard, by the way) to make the country livable, safe, secure, prosperous, etc. then those Indians need to see some kind of returns.
How long do you expect people to keep blindly paying half their income to the country, state, and municipality when almost ALL of the money gets siphoned off as corruption and absolutely none of the money finds its way towards even providing us with absolutely basic stuff like roads, water, electricity? Why should my children have to struggle to get into a good institute only because most of the seats are reserved for the various quotas and castes that exist in our country?
We sit in our ivory towers, basking in the glow of India's rich and proud heritage. We beat our breasts either exhorting our fellow man to develop strong patriotic bones or to lament at the erosion of our heritage or about our brain drain.
At the end of the day, people will figure out for themselves what life options give them the best chance of survival and success. This is how life evolves and thrives. This is also how life becomes extinct. This is how evolution works, not just for organisms but even for ideas, cultures, languages.
The fact of the matter is that cultures, like species, even superior and highly evolved ones, die and become extinct. They become extinct because they were probably superior in many ways but also had some weaknesses that hobbled them over time and allowed their competitors to overtake them and eventually smother them. Another reason is that they failed to evolve fast enough and failed to adopt to changing circumstances and changing requirements as their competitors. Who is to say that dinosaurs who ruled the earth far longer than us were any inferior to any other species that exists today?
Sanskrit or Aramaic or Chinese many be far superior to English, but nothing changes the fact that English is the language of choice all over the world. In today's world, a good command over English gives me a much better chance of succeeding in life as compared my knowledge of say, Tamil, Sanskrit, or Hebrew.
Similarly, India may have a much better history and culture than USA, but this fact is only useful if one wants to completely immerse oneself in this culture and ignore all other life priorities. It works for a professor of Sangam Tamil who is doing research, but doesn't work for a bank officer or a mason who is making ends meet and still spending through their nose to get "English tuition" for their kids.
There is a reason why people not just in India but including all over the world, and including many developed countries try to migrate to the USA. We should try to understand the reasons that make USA the destination of choice, instead of continuing to ignore the reasons that makes people not want to stay in ours.
Arun - allow me to point out the one true fallacy in your argument. But before that, let me say that what you say is all true. It is certainly easier for people to learn English today and prosper with it. And it is certainly tougher for people to start learning more about our culture and language and heritage. If not for nothing but the fact that we have become so disconnected with it today. That is the status quo. And it is a sad status quo if I may say so. No reason why we cannot strive to change it though. As you said, it can be tough. But give a man a reason and he can move mountains. That is the whole principle of faith upon which all the religions of this world are built upon.
When America was founded (we need not go into how it started and who were the people who were brought in to settle as that may diversify into needless other divergences) it is not as if they did not have other prosperous options to move to. They did.
But they did not want any part of anybody else. They wanted to found as unique a culture as possible. They wanted to throw away all colonial signs of repression and suppression. America too was once a colony of England. See how America has methodically thrown away every English influence - consciously and purposefully. Driving on the right, light switches flicked up to turn on and so forth. They had the mental strength to not make the easy decision - to switch allegiances.
If such is the quality of people we are talking about, then tomorrow if Europe grows faster and offers a better life, then these same people would be quitting America and going over there. I will not describe the American populace as such. They have genuine passion for their country, their culture and as you rightly say their libertarian beliefs and principles which are in turn very closely tied into their country and their culture. That is the reason why you dont see people (American) wanting to move elsewhere even in this time of deep debt and financial insecurity in their nation.
There is a difference and that is worth emulating. We can either choose to emulate their faith and perseverance in our own country or just go over there and then follow whatever they do. Up to us individuals. Whether we want to be the easy go lucky people. Or we want to construct our own destiny and sit back proudly to witness the results and celebrate.
When America was founded (we need not go into how it started and who were the people who were brought in to settle as that may diversify into needless other divergences) it is not as if they did not have other prosperous options to move to. They did.
But they did not want any part of anybody else. They wanted to found as unique a culture as possible. They wanted to throw away all colonial signs of repression and suppression. America too was once a colony of England. See how America has methodically thrown away every English influence - consciously and purposefully. Driving on the right, light switches flicked up to turn on and so forth. They had the mental strength to not make the easy decision - to switch allegiances.
If such is the quality of people we are talking about, then tomorrow if Europe grows faster and offers a better life, then these same people would be quitting America and going over there. I will not describe the American populace as such. They have genuine passion for their country, their culture and as you rightly say their libertarian beliefs and principles which are in turn very closely tied into their country and their culture. That is the reason why you dont see people (American) wanting to move elsewhere even in this time of deep debt and financial insecurity in their nation.
There is a difference and that is worth emulating. We can either choose to emulate their faith and perseverance in our own country or just go over there and then follow whatever they do. Up to us individuals. Whether we want to be the easy go lucky people. Or we want to construct our own destiny and sit back proudly to witness the results and celebrate.
Let this not come out as an excuse. But in a way it was slightly easier for the founding fathers of the US constitution as they were, in effect, building rules and regulations for one mass of people - sharing language, religion and even colour for the most part. The same did not apply in our case.
Like I said, not an excuse. Just a statement of fact. Let this not detract even a little bit from the resounding success that the American legislators and thinkers managed to come up with in those days.
Like I said, not an excuse. Just a statement of fact. Let this not detract even a little bit from the resounding success that the American legislators and thinkers managed to come up with in those days.
Firstly, allow me to say that my previous post was a little over the top in some places.. mainly because I sometimes let emotions override logic.
Yes, when I look back at it, I realize that I DO want to keep persevering, keep chipping away in what little I can to make my country (hopefully) a better place. Quitting is always easy, as they say.
In a funny way, our country may baffle us in its complexity, contradiction, and in the fact that good and evil co-exists so effortlessly. However, nothing comes close to this in terms of sheer entertainment value and in the way it constantly challenges our notions
square_wave
Well-Known Member
Deleted post !
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Firstly, allow me to say that my previous post was a little over the top in some places.. mainly because I sometimes let emotions override logic.
Yes, when I look back at it, I realize that I DO want to keep persevering, keep chipping away in what little I can to make my country (hopefully) a better place. Quitting is always easy, as they say.
In a funny way, our country may baffle us in its complexity, contradiction, and in the fact that good and evil co-exists so effortlessly. However, nothing comes close to this in terms of sheer entertainment value and in the way it constantly challenges our notions
Glad to see you are open minded.
My thanks to everyone for letting this debate flower ... like a lotus in the muck ->
Some deadlines at work mean I can only approach this starting Monday next week if not Saturday night. And I do have some interesting perspectives to add.
As rightly pointed out, the main business of HFV can go on, and there is no need for frenzied posts on this thread. Those that enjoy "occasionally sipping wine" can chip in with intellectual tidbits and ideas for the interesting distraction on the side.
Thank you for your patience and understanding all.
-G
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I have some nitpicking with your argument. But overall, in agreement with you about the spirit of independence of the Americans.
Actually they had more practical reasons for standardization than just out of spite. Due to large distance involved, they had to define standards for all spare parts and materials sold. Trial and error was not possible if you need to repair farm equipment as you have travel for days to get spare parts. They had a unique problem that Europe at that time did not have and they had to solve it first. So, they standardized on a lot of spares from machinery to building supplies. This became part of the trade and mfg culture in that country from 17th century onwards.
I see a lot of similarity between the two countries. Both are multi-cultural and diverse. In India, there are a lot of immigrants: Moving from one state to another is as difficult as moving to a different country due to differences in languages, food and even climate. Indians are no less hard working as individuals. I find a lot of young Indians to be quite ambitious, albeit somewhat short sighted in their career goals. So, a lot of the DNA for a successful society is part of this country (after all it was one of most economically successful societies only a few centuries ago). So, why so much chaos/corruption now? I wish there is an answer somewhere.
Actually many of them were economic refugees and moved to US for a better life. From what I have heard, there were some who moved to get out of religious persecution too though I don't know the exact details.
BTW, US from the beginning was a multi-cultural society. People moved from different parts of Europe: Germans, Dutch, Scandinavians, Irish, Italian, French etc with different people settling down in different parts of the continent. Only a small part of what is US today was a British colony. The biggest piece of current US came from France (through Louisiana purchase) and Spain too owned part of US at one point.
Actually they had more practical reasons for standardization than just out of spite. Due to large distance involved, they had to define standards for all spare parts and materials sold. Trial and error was not possible if you need to repair farm equipment as you have travel for days to get spare parts. They had a unique problem that Europe at that time did not have and they had to solve it first. So, they standardized on a lot of spares from machinery to building supplies. This became part of the trade and mfg culture in that country from 17th century onwards.
I don't quite agree with this. Funnily, if the yardstick for patriotism as defined in this thread is used, US companies are probably the least patriotic in the world.
I see a lot of similarity between the two countries. Both are multi-cultural and diverse. In India, there are a lot of immigrants: Moving from one state to another is as difficult as moving to a different country due to differences in languages, food and even climate. Indians are no less hard working as individuals. I find a lot of young Indians to be quite ambitious, albeit somewhat short sighted in their career goals. So, a lot of the DNA for a successful society is part of this country (after all it was one of most economically successful societies only a few centuries ago). So, why so much chaos/corruption now? I wish there is an answer somewhere.
Raj - the US is multicultural? Not a chance!
You can at best say that the US has people who hail from multiple cultures. That is oh-so-different from what we have as in a pot-pourri of cultures which are indigenous.
And yes - those people who switch allegiances for greener pastures, when do they know to stop? What shade of green would make them stop? Who knows? By the way, your bringing in US companies in this context does not make sense. They operate on an entirely different, capitalistic principle as they should. We are talking about individuals here.
There is no similarity between US and India, Raj. The US speaks one language. Has one official (even if unspoken) religion. Eats the same kind of food - coast to coast. Any parallels here in India to that?
You can at best say that the US has people who hail from multiple cultures. That is oh-so-different from what we have as in a pot-pourri of cultures which are indigenous.
And yes - those people who switch allegiances for greener pastures, when do they know to stop? What shade of green would make them stop? Who knows? By the way, your bringing in US companies in this context does not make sense. They operate on an entirely different, capitalistic principle as they should. We are talking about individuals here.
There is no similarity between US and India, Raj. The US speaks one language. Has one official (even if unspoken) religion. Eats the same kind of food - coast to coast. Any parallels here in India to that?
Firstly, allow me to say that my previous post was a little over the top in some places.. mainly because I sometimes let emotions override logic.
Yes, when I look back at it, I realize that I DO want to keep persevering, keep chipping away in what little I can to make my country (hopefully) a better place. Quitting is always easy, as they say.
In a funny way, our country may baffle us in its complexity, contradiction, and in the fact that good and evil co-exists so effortlessly. However, nothing comes close to this in terms of sheer entertainment value and in the way it constantly challenges our notions
Not a problem at all, Arun. I am sure we understand each other.
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