Air India Express Crashes at Mangalore Airport
- Thread starter mnhegde
- Start date
However, apparently both the pilots were new and started flying Jet aircraft only from 2009. Now the question is why would Air India put such inexperienced pilots on to an airport that is difficult to land even for experienced pilots?
I thought it was standard procedure to always have a senior experienced pilot with a junior. This is news to me.
Regards
Interesting account of survivor- " there was no pre-landing message from the crew and the passengers were not even asked to fasten their seat belts. "
Fortunate to be alive: Survivor - Mangalore - City - The Times of India
Now this is getting Murky.
Regards
Fortunate to be alive: Survivor - Mangalore - City - The Times of India
Now this is getting Murky.
Regards
I believe the Pilot had landed at Mangalore 19 times before, and the co-pilot, Mr. Aluwalia, some 61 odd times before. So I don't think these guys were inexperienced.
Venkat
National (and regional) News channels are beaming the news since morning.
sanjay0864
Well-Known Member
Nothing sells like 'tragedy'.
True. I just quoted that they were not experienced because that's what the news channels were mentioning in the morning. I suppose we ought to wait for quite a bit of time for more factual information since our news channels tend to get carried away too far too fast.
Very true. Remember Mumbai Attacks in November 2008? All the news channels were tripping over each other to provide "live coverage" and they had a field day. And I can't recollect the name, but didn't a famous bollywood movie director "survey" the Taj hotel most likely for his next movie along with Maharashtra CM even before they had fully recovered the dead bodies of all those innocent Mumbaikars killed by Paki terrorists?
sud98
Well-Known Member
Really sad to see this news as its close to my native place and was planning to send my parents to mangalore via flight, will stick to train now.
Hi all
Really sad news and have been tuned in all of today.
Lets wait a while and see what the 'Black Box' reveals before we start blaming the poor pilot.
Yes could be pilot error but the commander was a very experienced pilot with over 10, 000 flying hours. He was a british national of serbian origin(that there could have been a language barrier is also ruled out). Seems wierd that such a senior pilot missed the touchdown point by 2000 feet!!! May be some other systems failed and hence the poor soul just had no chance.
Some one above mentioned that he tried to take off again after touchdown. Frankly that is almost impossible for a commercial airliner! He can abort a landing upto a cut off point but after he touches down it s next to impossible to take off as far as I know.
Do u guys remember the time when Late Rajiv Gandhi had inducted the then new A 320? And one of them crashed on the BOM- BANGALORE sector. The DGCA went on & on about a poor aircraft,poor avionics, various kickbacks to the ruling govt at the time blah blah blah and finally after a few years it was revealed that it was a gross pilot error as he mistook the golf course to be the beginning of the runway!!! The A 320 went on to become a highly successful airliner but at the time we the people were led to believe something entirely untrue.
Accidents can & will happen everywhere. The runway is now 'acceptable' and loads of similar aircrafts ply the sector everyday. Yes they could have increased it even further but to say that the culprit here is the length of the runway is far fetched IMO. Visibility,weather were fine too.
I hope there is no cover up and all the facts are revealed as WE the people have a right to know.
Rgds
Really sad news and have been tuned in all of today.
Lets wait a while and see what the 'Black Box' reveals before we start blaming the poor pilot.
Yes could be pilot error but the commander was a very experienced pilot with over 10, 000 flying hours. He was a british national of serbian origin(that there could have been a language barrier is also ruled out). Seems wierd that such a senior pilot missed the touchdown point by 2000 feet!!! May be some other systems failed and hence the poor soul just had no chance.
Some one above mentioned that he tried to take off again after touchdown. Frankly that is almost impossible for a commercial airliner! He can abort a landing upto a cut off point but after he touches down it s next to impossible to take off as far as I know.
Do u guys remember the time when Late Rajiv Gandhi had inducted the then new A 320? And one of them crashed on the BOM- BANGALORE sector. The DGCA went on & on about a poor aircraft,poor avionics, various kickbacks to the ruling govt at the time blah blah blah and finally after a few years it was revealed that it was a gross pilot error as he mistook the golf course to be the beginning of the runway!!! The A 320 went on to become a highly successful airliner but at the time we the people were led to believe something entirely untrue.
Accidents can & will happen everywhere. The runway is now 'acceptable' and loads of similar aircrafts ply the sector everyday. Yes they could have increased it even further but to say that the culprit here is the length of the runway is far fetched IMO. Visibility,weather were fine too.
I hope there is no cover up and all the facts are revealed as WE the people have a right to know.
Rgds
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harryanthony
New Member
Very Sad new !!
Let god protect and guide their loved ones...
R.I.P
Let god protect and guide their loved ones...
R.I.P
GeorgeO
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately 5his is the usual bakwas:
Air India plane had overshot by about 2000 feet: Praful Patel - Mangalore - City - The Times of India
Air India plane had overshot by about 2000 feet: Praful Patel - Mangalore - City - The Times of India
marsilians
Well-Known Member
Very sad day for humanity - may the souls rest in peace.
While Mangalore airport is a table top model with limitations on runway etc., one of the critical criteria that determines the risk level during take off and landing is 'maximum certified landing gross weight (MLGW)' and 'maximum landing payload' (MLP)
The MLGW = weight of aircraft (including passengers and luggage with gravity factor accounted for) less the fuel burnout between start and end points.
MLP is the the maximum payload with which an aircraft is structurally capable of landing and = MLGW - Operating Weight Empty (complete aircraft with no passengers or luggage) - Destination Landing Fuel weight.
If the MLP is off then it makes maneouvring very hard and is a potential cause for overshooting the runway (because of inertia).
So, wait and see what the cause would be before shooting down the runaway distance.
Now for the cliff beyond the runway??? Thats a mystery and the decision makers should be made accountable. Otherwise only operate twin engine planes from near by places to avoid such a mishap again.
While Mangalore airport is a table top model with limitations on runway etc., one of the critical criteria that determines the risk level during take off and landing is 'maximum certified landing gross weight (MLGW)' and 'maximum landing payload' (MLP)
The MLGW = weight of aircraft (including passengers and luggage with gravity factor accounted for) less the fuel burnout between start and end points.
MLP is the the maximum payload with which an aircraft is structurally capable of landing and = MLGW - Operating Weight Empty (complete aircraft with no passengers or luggage) - Destination Landing Fuel weight.
If the MLP is off then it makes maneouvring very hard and is a potential cause for overshooting the runway (because of inertia).
So, wait and see what the cause would be before shooting down the runaway distance.
Now for the cliff beyond the runway??? Thats a mystery and the decision makers should be made accountable. Otherwise only operate twin engine planes from near by places to avoid such a mishap again.
avidyarthy
Well-Known Member
That is what Mr. Saldhana was saying on TV last night. BTW, it was him and some others who had filed a petition against DGCA's recommendation to the courts for going ahead with the Mangalore new airport citing operational issues and the hill location. His views at that time were shot down.
So, till the black box gets de-coded, nothing can be arrived at. After giving it a deep thought, it could have been (just contemplating),
The wheel brakes of the aircraft had failed. The wheel brakes are usually applied at the last ie. when the aircraft has significantly lost speed on landing, by using the wind brakes set on at the rear part of both the wings. This portion, on application, maintains a perpendicular profile as against the parallel aerofoil of the wing, which causes severe wind resistance, which in turns act as a wind brake. I believe this had worked normally.
Logically, the wheel brakes could have failed. So, the aircraft just kept on going at a moderate speed and tumbled off into the jungle. At low speeds, the wind brakes are ineffective.
......... I could be wrong though .......... The airstrip being shorter, added to this problem.
So, till the black box gets de-coded, nothing can be arrived at. After giving it a deep thought, it could have been (just contemplating),
The wheel brakes of the aircraft had failed. The wheel brakes are usually applied at the last ie. when the aircraft has significantly lost speed on landing, by using the wind brakes set on at the rear part of both the wings. This portion, on application, maintains a perpendicular profile as against the parallel aerofoil of the wing, which causes severe wind resistance, which in turns act as a wind brake. I believe this had worked normally.
Logically, the wheel brakes could have failed. So, the aircraft just kept on going at a moderate speed and tumbled off into the jungle. At low speeds, the wind brakes are ineffective.
......... I could be wrong though .......... The airstrip being shorter, added to this problem.
Frankly after missing the touch down point/zone by 2000 ft it would have been quite a landing if the pilot could land safely!!!! That would mean landing the 737 in about 6000 ft which is tough I believe. Why did he not do a 'go around' is the million dollar question?
Air India is known to overload so yes the load is a factor as it directly affects the breaking distance of the aircraft.
There is also some talk that the Co pilot was in charge at the time but all will be revealed when they recover the CVR and the FDR I hope.
Rgds
Air India is known to overload so yes the load is a factor as it directly affects the breaking distance of the aircraft.
There is also some talk that the Co pilot was in charge at the time but all will be revealed when they recover the CVR and the FDR I hope.
Rgds
Indeed the authorities should be taken to task if the airport was small or lack of sufficient space. I never fly in a aircraft which is run by the government, because anything run by them is generally not in order. It is a good idea to be careful in which airports one should fly into and avoid the rainy seasons and prime landing and take of times, etc. If the pilot allows the co-pilot to do the main landing then such a pilot should be put behind bars.
The blame very often will be put on the pilot as he is dead so he can not give his version, the findings etc will be often rigged. The main reasons for such disasters are because the ministers in charge do not handle their duty well. The top govement people and many civilians understand that travelling by these government planes are not safe for various reasons no wonder they are likely to travel rarely by them and choose a private airline to travel, so this says it all, if it becomes mandatory for the top government officials to travel only by air india or indian airlines and related then things will become much better.
V.
The blame very often will be put on the pilot as he is dead so he can not give his version, the findings etc will be often rigged. The main reasons for such disasters are because the ministers in charge do not handle their duty well. The top govement people and many civilians understand that travelling by these government planes are not safe for various reasons no wonder they are likely to travel rarely by them and choose a private airline to travel, so this says it all, if it becomes mandatory for the top government officials to travel only by air india or indian airlines and related then things will become much better.
V.
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If the pilot made a mistake, I don't know how fair it is to blame the Aviation minister. It would be like blaming the traffic commissioner if I banged into somebody out of negligence - is it not?
Regards
Indeed if the pilot has made a mistake even a child can understand that how can the aviation minister be held. The point is that there are several areas where things could not be taken care of, like excess baggage or cargo, flight maintenance, assorted ground factors, foreign pilots, etc, etc. The aviation minister and other seniors in the department should be penalized for this. I will repeat that the top bosses in the aviation industry are aware that they are not handling their jobs properly so it is not safe to travel by them so they probably choose the private airlines to travel, this says quite a lot about the state of affairs, just a point i knew of a pilot several years ago, he used to tell me at times it was a little unsafe to take off for some technical reasons but they were forced to be air bone.
V.
V.
Technically a Boeing 737-800 can take off and land in 2500 feet. 6000 feet is more than adequate for landing the aircraft.
There have been multiple reasons provided by various people. One is that AI pilots are not allowed to make a hard landing as this increases the wear and tear on the undercarriage and the tyres. If you have to make a soft landing, you have to glide the aircraft for quite some time over the runway and allow the plane to touchdown softly. One conjecture is that Captain Zlakto Gluscia was attempting a soft landing (as per the rules of AI), realised too late he was running out of runway length, and attempted to brake the aircraft thereby bursting the tyres. The aircraft veered off, hit the localizer, and then fell off the runway.
Another theory is that Ahluwalia was making the soft landing, and Captain Gluscia attempted a turn around too late. It is possible that Ahluwalia has already employed reverse thrusts after which you cannot attempt a turnaround.
It also looks like Gluscia and Ahluwalia were close to their 12 hours limits in terms of flying time and could have been tired and not quick enough in terms of responding to errors.
Irrespective of what happened, it is quite clear that Bajpe airport is too small, not allowing for any pilot errors. It breaks a number of golden rules including runway length, flat space on both sides of the runway, and lack of roads and access point for emergency vehicles.
All in all it is very sad for the 160 odd people who last their lives.
Venkat
There have been multiple reasons provided by various people. One is that AI pilots are not allowed to make a hard landing as this increases the wear and tear on the undercarriage and the tyres. If you have to make a soft landing, you have to glide the aircraft for quite some time over the runway and allow the plane to touchdown softly. One conjecture is that Captain Zlakto Gluscia was attempting a soft landing (as per the rules of AI), realised too late he was running out of runway length, and attempted to brake the aircraft thereby bursting the tyres. The aircraft veered off, hit the localizer, and then fell off the runway.
Another theory is that Ahluwalia was making the soft landing, and Captain Gluscia attempted a turn around too late. It is possible that Ahluwalia has already employed reverse thrusts after which you cannot attempt a turnaround.
It also looks like Gluscia and Ahluwalia were close to their 12 hours limits in terms of flying time and could have been tired and not quick enough in terms of responding to errors.
Irrespective of what happened, it is quite clear that Bajpe airport is too small, not allowing for any pilot errors. It breaks a number of golden rules including runway length, flat space on both sides of the runway, and lack of roads and access point for emergency vehicles.
All in all it is very sad for the 160 odd people who last their lives.
Venkat
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