Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Audire

[prem]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Venkatcr

Have you tried a CVT?

It hums. Apart from that it has no problems. I have compared a CVT to Shunyata Hydra, Powerwing and Haley, all of which i own. To my ears the CVT is superior to all three of them in terms of dynamics and naturalness. If a CVT has all the problems that you mention, i am not stupid to use a CVT especially when i have options.

Audience which manufactures the highly acclaimed Adept conditioners normally use a CVT before them.

CVTs are not very expensive. A 1KVA costs Rs 15000. They are also not very large.

I suggest listen to a CVT first before making sweeping statements that they are not good for audio.

 

[venkatcr]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Have you tried a CVT?

No, and neither will I.

CVTs are not very expensive. A 1KVA costs Rs 15000. They are also not very large. I suggest listen to a CVT first before making sweeping statements that they are not good for audio.

As I said, I spoke to a number of manufacturers and my conclusions are based on what these people have told me.

If you are happy with your CVT, then it is obviously very good for you, right? At the same time, the technology involved in the design of the CVTs as told to me, I felt, made it unsuitable for audio purposes.

Cheers

 

[sunder]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

I was curious about CVT and did some research on the use of CVT for AV purposes. I spoke to a number of manufacturers and here is the conclusion.

Basic Working Principle of A CVT:

CVT is technically a ferro resonant power transformer designed with separate core windows for the primary secondary windings. They have two magnetic circuits - the main flux path and the shunt flux path. The main flux paths couples the primary and secondary circuits. The secondary circuit is tuned to resonate at the line frequency by connecting a capacitor across. The Q of the tuned circuit is high enough to cause large circulating current that saturates the core in the main flux path. Saturation is a decrease or increase in the magnetizing force that is not accompanied by a corresponding change in the flux density. With the main flux path saturated, the line voltage fluctuation will not change the main flux density, and the secondary voltage will remain constant, i.e., if the primary voltage does not drop too low. Thus, we understand that a CVT is an industrial grade power supply, configured to maintain constant voltages alone, and does not in any way, eliminate power noise, or supply huge current demands of an audio amplifier.

Major consumer of CVT are industrialists, who use them in instrumentation. People who use CVTs for audio/video purposes may not have satosfactiry results due to the following reasons:

1. High cost and weight.
2. Low efficiency factor.
3. Comparatively poor load regulation.
4. Noise generated due to ferro resonance (an inherent physical limitation)
5. Voltage regulation critically dependent on line frequency.
6. Though CVTs can be made in large capacities, the commonly available are usually rated at 100VA to 1kVA, above which requires custom designed cores etc, making them extremely expensive.
7. NOT an ideal voltage regulator for high current application like audio.
8. FERRO RESONANCE ITSELF INTRODUCES A DENSE EMI PATTERN, WHICH IS DETRIMENTAL TO AUDIO APPLICATIONS.

Audio Power Conditioning Devices:

An ideal audio power conditioning device has many other functions apart from voltage regulation. Basically, voltage regulation is not critical to audio applications. (This is apart from a high voltage cutoff feature to protect your amplifier). The other power conditioning aspects include:

1. Eliminating ground borne noise.
2. Eliminating EMI and RF interference.
3. Minimizing serial resistance in the electrical path.
4. Providing a magnetic flywheel to support the amplifier's dynamic current swings.
5. Providing balanced power output (115-0-115V)
6. Two phase power conditioners to totally eliminate the dirty neutral to provide absolute clean power.
7. High quality power conditioners use choke regulators carefully designed to prevent current limiting.

It thus looks as if CVT is an industrial equipment usually used to feed small loads, is a noise generating component by itself, and is not ideal for usage even in close proximity with audio equipments, let alone to be used a as power cleanup utility for audio applications. It is a noise introducing and a noise inducing element which, for the purpose of purifying power, is a paradox!

Cheers

Dear Venkatji, I am using audire's 2kvA power conditioner to my system consists monoblock powers. Low freq. is strugling. But Malaysian made
Promitheous 'Power Energizer' for 2.5 kvA,in which they are making the
thing to enhancing Low freq. mid &highs. Price is INR20k with special power cable and shipping is also free!
Regards.

 

[venkatcr]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Dear Venkatji, I am using audire's 2kvA power conditioner to my system consists monoblock powers. Low freq. is strugling. But Malaysian made Promitheous 'Power Energizer' for 2.5 kvA,in which they are making the thing to enhancing Low freq. mid &highs.

A power conditioning equipment that can enhance the frequencies? That sounds highly unlikely. A power conditioning equipment controls voltage, current, and external interference such as EMI/RFI. It's job is to supply clean power to the amp. The rest is up to the audio electronics. Actually I would go so far to say if the power conditioning equipment is affecting the sound stage, it is NOT doing it's job properly.

Cheers

 

[sandeepnaird]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Venkatcr

Have you tried a CVT?

It hums. Apart from that it has no problems. I have compared a CVT to Shunyata Hydra, Powerwing and Haley, all of which i own. To my ears the CVT is superior to all three of them in terms of dynamics and naturalness. If a CVT has all the problems that you mention, i am not stupid to use a CVT especially when i have options.

Audience which manufactures the highly acclaimed Adept conditioners normally use a CVT before them.

CVTs are not very expensive. A 1KVA costs Rs 15000. They are also not very large.

I suggest listen to a CVT first before making sweeping statements that they are not good for audio.

Wait a second. Am I getting the picture incorrectly here? It HUMS. Apart from that its all ok? Clearly, the two dont mix and match. Manufacturers all around the world spend blood sweat and tears to make sure their products dont even resonant well beyond the audible frequency. And according to you a hum in a hifi audio system is ok??

Perhaps its a point of that I, as a manufacturer, and audiophile can't and will never understand.

PS: My company has been making CVTs for decades, and we have experimented with hundreds of them in audio setups. We have tried not only our own CVTs, but also those of the world's finest manufacturers. THEY ARE NOT SUITABLE FOR CLEANING UP POWER FOR AUDIO APPLICATIONS. PERIOD.

 

[sandeepnaird]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Hi,

I'm curious to know (website nicknames being very confusing and all that), as to who you are and where you have bought this apparently erroneous power conditioner from?

Regards,
Sandeep Nair.
Designer,
Audire Technologies.

 

[sandeepnaird]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

A power conditioning equipment that can enhance the frequencies? That sounds highly unlikely. A power conditioning equipment controls voltage, current, and external interference such as EMI/RFI. It's job is to supply clean power to the amp. The rest is up to the audio electronics. Actually I would go so far to say if the power conditioning equipment is affecting the sound stage, it is NOT doing it's job properly.

Cheers

I second that Venkat! Thanks for putting through that point so clearly. A power conditioner that enhances lows, mids, and highs!! Now I've heard everything. I don't realize why so many countries fight for oil fields, when there is so much snake oil to power the entire world for decades to come!

 

[gobble]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Hi,

I'm curious to know (website nicknames being very confusing and all that), as to who you are and where you have bought this apparently erroneous power conditioner from?

Regards,
Sandeep Nair.
Designer,
Audire Technologies.

Sandeep your question addressed to Sunder's post below? Or Prem's?
Just trying to clarify the flow of the thread.

Regards

 

[prem]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Hi Sandeepnaird

When i say it hums, its a mechanical one. All ferroresonant transformers do have a mechanical hum. You cannot hear any hum through the speakers.

The CVT works wonderfully for me. It also works very well at Jacobs demo Rethm room in Cochin.

Since it does not seem to work at your place i guess its a case of hit and miss with CVT.

I tried a voltage stabiliser at my place. I prefer the CVT to it. I am only using the CVT for voltage regulation and not for cleaning up the power. That a CVT reduces transverse mode noise is a bonus. To reduce common mode noise, i use a BPT balanced isolation transformer.

 

[sandeepnaird]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Just one more general fact here. I think some people here feel that a CVT is not a currently limiting mechanism. To all of you who feel that way, please refer to fundamental electrical engineering!

And to put a stop to this ridiculous argument, a power conditioner is a device which enhances the performance of your audio system by providing it with clean power. THERE EXISTS NO CORRECT METHODOLOGY OF POWER CORRECTION WHICH CAN ENHANCE YOUR SOUND. That is quite a ridiculous statement. A CVT is a mechanism for regulating the voltage, nothing else. THERE IS NO COMPARISON BETWEEN THE TWO.

 

[sandeepnaird]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Sandeep your question addressed to Sunder's post below? Or Prem's?
Just trying to clarify the flow of the thread.

Regards

Its directed towards Sundar's post.

 

[sandeepnaird]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Hi Sandeepnaird

When i say it hums, its a mechanical one. All ferroresonant transformers do have a mechanical hum. You cannot hear any hum through the speakers.

The CVT works wonderfully for me. It also works very well at Jacobs demo Rethm room in Cochin.

Since it does not seem to work at your place i guess its a case of hit and miss with CVT.

I tried a voltage stabiliser at my place. I prefer the CVT to it. I am only using the CVT for voltage regulation and not for cleaning up the power. That a CVT reduces transverse mode noise is a bonus. To reduce common mode noise, i use a BPT balanced isolation transformer.

CVTS are always current limiting. It will kill the transience and musicality of sound. Any mechanical resonance introduced within an audio setup will introduce a coloration in the sound. In the case of a low powered amplifier, the obvious artifacts generated by the mechanical resonance of a CVT is unheard. However, in the majority of high powered and/or high resolution systems, CVTs are completely illogical!

Audio amplifiers generally don't require constant voltages, ask any qualified audio amplifier manufacturer around the world and they will tell you that this is the case.

 

[prem]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Hi Sandeepnaird

I think i very clearly mentioned that i am using a CVT for only voltage regulation. I am not using it to clean up rf and emi. So far i have not experienced any current limiting with a CVT.

 

[prem]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Hi Sandeepnaird

I am going by what i am hearing. Neither the musicality nor the transients are affected.

I do not know if amplifiers need CVTs or not but i was advised to have one by several established tube suppliers.

 

[sandeepnaird]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Hi Sandeepnaird

I am going by what i am hearing. Neither the musicality nor the transients are affected.

I do not know if amplifiers need CVTs or not but i was advised to have one by several established tube suppliers.

Hearing cannot defy physics. Current limiting is very much a factor when it comes to CVTs. And it will remain a factor whether you perceive it or not. Its like the Descartes' map, from Jean Bauldrillard's Simulation and Simulacra. You perceive your perception of reality to be reality itself. Sorry. Can't agree with you! Please enlighten me with the names of the tube suppliers who made such a tall claim, I would like to to talk to them!

 

[prem]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Hi Sandeepnaird

I really do not want to get into mentioning the names of people who recommended a CVT to me, especially after the kind of stuff thats been happening on this forum lately.

I have the highest regard for Audire products and i am sure your power conditioner is excellent. I was in the market for a voltage stabiliser. In fact i even spoke to Sharath and he mentioned that Audire offered a stabiliser with power conditioning. I was not looking for power conditioning since i already had a Shunyata, Powerwing and RSA Haley in my possession.

When a few respected guys recommended a CVT, i was confused. I researched a bit on the net and everything that Venkatcr mentioned on a post on this thread showed up in my findings. Jacob at Rethm assured me that a CVT would be fine. I respect Jacob a lot and went with his suggestion. Even after i had ordered it, i had mentally written it off consoling myself that if it did not work i will send it to my office. But when i hooked up my system through the CVT i was pleasantly surprised.

I find no current limiting with the CVT. If the requirements for example is 750 watts, using a 1.5 KVA transformer should take care of current requirements. Isn't that the way it works?

 

[Sujit]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Hello gvenu,
i am using Zephyr power conditioner. It's a 2 KVA unit. Initially i was not much impressed with this unit. But after putting them on vibrapods this thing started to sing. Keep in mind this unit needs a good isolation. AFAIK Audire custom make these units with Tara lab cables, FIM receptacles and some good isolators.

Purely for my understanding - is there a scientific explanation for this? (the underlined part)

 

[venkatcr]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

I find no current limiting with the CVT. If the requirements for example is 750 watts, using a 1.5 KVA transformer should take care of current requirements. Isn't that the way it works?

Having 2x is good. What we worry about in audio is the capacity of the power conditioner to be able to supply rush current.

Cheers

 

[captrajesh]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

Having 2x is good. What we worry about in audio is the capacity of the power conditioner to be able to supply rush current.

So if CVT gives out a constant voltage but unable to supply rush current for transient peaks in the music, then by adding capacitor Banks between CVT output and Amp input would it not be enough solve the prob?

I'm just being curious.

 

[venkatcr]

Re: Any suggestion: I am planning to buy a power conditioner plus stabilizer from Aud

So if CVT gives out a constant voltage but unable to supply rush current for transient peaks in the music, then by adding capacitor Banks between CVT output and Amp input would it not be enough solve the prob? I'm just being curious.

Theoretically yes. But remember capacitors take time to refill. What if the music or movie has two rush current requirements successively with very little time in between? That is the reason that it is recommended that the power conditioning equipment has a capacity that is usually in an order of magnitude much higher than the HIGHEST power capacity of the amp. That way you do not exercise the power conditioner too much and have some reserve power at hand. OR, you have a power conditioning equipment that can deliver rush current requirements easily. It usually is a combination of the conditioner's internal storage as well as the speed with which it can draw power from the main power lines, clean it, and deliver it to you.

Cheers