Are vintage cartridge still superior than modern one?

[sudhirbhosale]

Hi all
While searching for vintage TT, I found some models without cartridge (philips 242, AkaiBush) are available with low price. Would it be wise to buy without cartridge and use the saving to buy brand new cartridge.
So would like to know from expert FM the opinion.
Vintage TT are still good but same it for old cartridge (from TT models like Philps 242, Akai Bush)?

What can be good modern cartridge under 6K?

Thanks

 

[greenhorn]

With the exception of a few legendary carts like the Shure V15, ADC ZLM, Stanton 681EE etc, most of the mid to low range vintage carts or no better than a new AT/Shure/ortofon cart.

Hi all
While searching for vintage TT, I found some models without cartridge (philips 242, AkaiBush) are available with low price. Would it be wise to buy without cartridge and use the saving to buy brand new cartridge.

Yes. Another point to consider is that original styli are not available for a lot of older carts, and most generic styli are not as good, ( i have lots of vintage carts running generic styli, so I know) so unless you have some sort of emotional attatchment or nostalgia, get a new cart!

What can be good modern cartridge under 6K?

AT91/92/95E, Shure M44-7, depending on the price you're getting them at, the music you listen to, the sort of TT you have etc

 

[Selvin]

One more issue is compliance. Most old TT's arm are medium to high mass kind and if we mate with modern high compliance cartridges there will be subsonic noise which loads the amplifier and stress to LF driver of the speaker.

Once I tried side in my Technics SL-Q3 TT with stock vintage Technics 270C cartridge with Jico stylus and a Audio Technica AT-120e side by side. The AT-120e is marginally detail than 270C. The AT-120e is little lean sound and the 270C sound is more warm and bold. There is strong cone movements on bass driver while playing with AT-120e and this effect is nil when using 270C. Finally my heart preferred the sound of vintage Technics 270C.

Somewhat I felt the modern cartridges many up to 200$ price which I tried are CD like sounding.

 

[kuruvilajacob]

One more issue is compliance. Most old TT's arm are medium to high mass kind and if we mate with modern high compliance cartridges there will be subsonic noise which loads the amplifier and stress to LF driver of the speaker.

Once I tried side in my Technics SL-Q3 TT with stock vintage Technics 270C cartridge with Jico stylus and a Audio Technica AT-120e side by side. The AT-120e is marginally detail than 270C. The AT-120e is little lean sound and the 270C sound is more warm and bold. There is strong cone movements on bass driver while playing with AT-120e and this effect is nil when using 270C. Finally my heart preferred the sound of vintage Technics 270C.

Somewhat I felt the modern cartridges many up to 200$ price which I tried are CD like sounding.

Selvin,
I have also noticed that the vintage Shure and other cartridges sound warmer provided the cantilever has not become weak. Even the new Shure 97 xe sounds thinner than the original Shure 97 made in USA. The same goes with many other brands too. I have read somewhere that Shure stopped manufacturing many models because the special alloy that they were using on their vintage models are not available or too expensive to make the cartridge. The same goes for many of the new turntables also. They sound thinner than many vintage turntables

 

[sudhirbhosale]

Selvin,
I have also noticed that the vintage Shure and other cartridges sound warmer provided the cantilever has not become weak. Even the new Shure 97 xe sounds thinner than the original Shure 97 made in USA. The same goes with many other brands too. I have read somewhere that Shure stopped manufacturing many models because the special alloy that they were using on their vintage models are not available or too expensive to make the cartridge. The same goes for many of the new turntables also. They sound thinner than many vintage turntables

Thanks greenhorn, Selvin, Kuruvila,

Kuruvila, as per your experience, which modern cartrige sounded as good as vintage cartrige?

Thanks

 

[jls001]

Buy V15. Very good. Way better than Shure M97xE. Still comes up every now and then for sale.

Or simply close your eyes and buy a Denon DL 103 or 103R. Can't be beaten for the money. And been in continuous production since 1962.

 

[navinsinha]

Buy V15. Very good. Way better than Shure M97xE. Still comes up every now and then for sale.

Or simply close your eyes and buy a Denon DL 103 or 103R. Can't be beaten for the money. And been in continuous production since 1962.

Hi Joshua,
I have the DL 103 but have not dared to use it (except for testing) in view of the condition of Indian records in general. Any views on this issue?

 

[greenhorn]

Buy V15. Very good. Way better than Shure M97xE. Still comes up every now and then for sale.

as per my understanding, the M97XE is a cost cut version of the V15, but the majority of the difference is in the stylus. but V15's with working styli are getting rarer, and with a jico sas, i think the gap between the V15 and the M97 should become smaller, as the jico sas is inferior to the stock V15 stylus, and superior to the stock M97 stylus

 

[jls001]

Hi Joshua,
I have the DL 103 but have not dared to use it (except for testing) in view of the condition of Indian records in general. Any views on this issue?

It's my daily workhorse. I throw everything at it (except my kitchen sink) and it plays with great aplomb. If a record is in a bad state, it will play bad. If good, it will play good. And I can tell you it shines on excellent records.

If you have the right arm for it, please use it as your daily workhorse.

But to be fair, I treat my Decca London Super Gold cartridge the way you treat your DL 103. I keep it for special occasions.

Incidentally, my second TT also sports a Denon (DL 160).

 

[jls001]

as per my understanding, the M97XE is a cost cut version of the V15, but the majority of the difference is in the stylus. but V15's with working styli are getting rarer, and with a jico sas, i think the gap between the V15 and the M97 should become smaller, as the jico sas is inferior to the stock V15 stylus, and superior to the stock M97 stylus

My V15/III beats my M97xE (stock stylus) so thoroughly, there's really no contest. And that too using the less than sterling stylus from Ed Saunders (on the V15). I can imagine a Jico would elevate both M97xE and V15.

 

[navinsinha]

It's my daily workhorse. I throw everything at it (except my kitchen sink) and it plays with great aplomb. If a record is in a bad state, it will play bad. If good, it will play good. And I can tell you it shines on excellent records.

If you have the right arm for it, please use it as your daily workhorse.

But to be fair, I treat my Decca London Super Gold cartridge the way you treat your DL 103. I keep it for special occasions.

Incidentally, my second TT also sports a Denon (DL 160).

Joshua,
I have heard your Decca London and I must say that it is definitely better than the DL 103!!!
BTW I want the DL 103 on the stock arm of Technics SL 1200 MK2 - what do you say? The other arm that I have is the Grace 707 but never thought if it can go with the 1200 MK2.

 

[reubensm]

V15/III is a great cart, but its quite honest The V15/IV also sounds good to my ears but the general consensus on the internet is that the V15/III sounds better. For me, an outsider would be the M3D. I just love the way it plays older records.

 

[jls001]

BTW I want the DL 103 on the stock arm of Technics SL 1200 MK2 - what do you say? The other arm that I have is the Grace 707 but never thought if it can go with the 1200 MK2.

I've briefly tried DL 103 on 1200/II. Not the best match but it works.

 

[navinsinha]

I've briefly tried DL 103 on 1200/II. Not the best match but it works.

Which cart do you suggest for 1200 II stock arm Joshua?

 

[greenhorn]

My V15/III beats my M97xE (stock stylus) so thoroughly, there's really no contest. And that too using the less than sterling stylus from Ed Saunders (on the V15). I can imagine a Jico would elevate both M97xE and V15.

I had bought an ed saunders V15VXMR stylus to try with my M35 body, and to me it sounded much better than the stock m35 stylus, but still had the same overall signature, which I'm not a fan of. I've not heard a V15, so can't comment. Plus its an expensive stylus, so i don't use it too much. perhaps my system is not capable of resolving as much detail. The V15 had laminated pole pieces and better construction compared to the M35, so that would have meant better highs and lows. At least the construction can be taken care of rebodying -
Universal Phono Cartridge body for Shure SC35C but will work on countless others | eBay

V15/III is a great cart, but its quite honest The V15/IV also sounds good to my ears but the general consensus on the internet is that the V15/III sounds better. For me, an outsider would be the M3D. I just love the way it plays older records.

For those of you who can't get an M3D, the SC35C is a cheaper alternative and is widely well regarded for those looking for that sort of sound. Search for reviews online-
Besides the stock stylus, the body can take pretty much any wide shank shure stylus (M97, V15VXMR, etc) , especially if you rebody it

 

[jls001]

Which cart do you suggest for 1200 II stock arm Joshua?

Have you tried your Shure M97xE, Nagaoka MP110 or your Stanton 681EEE? I think all three will play very well on the 1200.

 

[navinsinha]

Have you tried your Shure M97xE, Nagaoka MP110 or your Stanton 681EEE? I think all three will play very well on the 1200.

Hi Joshua,
I have tried the 97XE but it was not great, I have not yet tried the Nagaoka and 681EEE, would try and revert. Thanks a lot!

 

[jls001]

For those of you who can't get an M3D, the SC35C is a cheaper alternative and is widely well regarded for those looking for that sort of sound. Search for reviews online-
Besides the stock stylus, the body can take pretty much any wide shank shure stylus (M97, V15VXMR, etc) , especially if you rebody it

Do you mean the M3D will take the above mentioned styli? Or the SC35C?

I have an M3D in need of a stylus. I know you can get them cheaply from Korea but I haven't gotten around to doing it. I understand the M3D is a low compliance MM that will need high mass arm.

 

[greenhorn]

Do you mean the M3D will take the above mentioned styli? Or the SC35C?

I meant that the sound is similar, but it seems that the M75 stylus can be made to fit
Shure M3D - N21D - Page 3 - Vinyl Engine