Best vfm Amp+ bookshelf speakers for 60-70k

[vineetrad]

I am tasked to setup the best vfm amp+stereo speaker setup for a friend. He is extremely sensitive to harshness in the midrange and highs - cymbals, high hats, piercing female voices all cause him to give up on most hifi speakers to date.

So the challenge is getting the smoothest most lush non fatiguing mid and high reproduction. Giving up some detail and resolution is fine but of course no one wants a mushy mess either.

Ideally amp+speakers with the best synergy to produce this sound. Equipment needs to be available for ready purchase in India.

Second challenge is within 60-70k for the amp+speakers. He plans to add a sub later so a deep low end isn't critical.

He already has a schiit modi Uber 2 dac and laptop source.

Suggestions?

 

[humblebee]

NAD 316BEE - enough power for basic playback vfm.
Q Acoustics 3020 - smooth, natural sound that is also not forward.

 

[vineetrad]

So the Q Acoustics 3020 is 28K

NAD 316BEE - 35K

Total 63K - works price wise.

Any idea where the Q Acoustics can be listened to in Bangalore? Anyone else have any other recommendations?

 

[MaSh]

So the Q Acoustics 3020 is 28K

NAD 316BEE - 35K

Total 63K - works price wise.

Any idea where the Q Acoustics can be listened to in Bangalore? Anyone else have any other recommendations?

Babbler group are authorised dealers for QA. 3020 is very good, so is Concept 20. Audition them both. You can then visit pro fx to audition Polk and kef.

http://www.babblergroup.com

MaSh

Sent from my Redmi Note 3

 

[humblebee]

Actually I also like smooth sound and am sensitive to harshness and other such problems.
Inmy efforts to improve playback, I discovered that many problems have come from digitization of music.
So either the simple option is to go for turntables & vinyl.
Or if digital convenience is preferred (like I do) then some care has to be taken.
Let me know if I am reading your friend's situation correctly.
Then we can discuss what has to be done.

 

[vineetrad]

Just checked with him he wants to stay digital. He's extra finicky and constantly complains even if there is a hint of digital glare. I know with certain recordings it will be inevitable whatever one does so I've set that expectation but would be great to know what all to keep in mind including the speakers and other stuff. Right now my checklist is:
A speaker amp with a synergy to produce the desired sound signature
Speaker wire without silver
Decent soft furnishing and carpeting in his room
Avoiding excessive glass surfaces in the room
Decent interconnects

Actually I also like smooth sound and am sensitive to harshness and other such problems.
Inmy efforts to improve playback, I discovered that many problems have come from digitization of music.
So either the simple option is to go for turntables & vinyl.
Or if digital convenience is preferred (like I do) then some care has to be taken.
Let me know if I am reading your friend's situation correctly.
Then we can discuss what has to be done.

 

[vineetrad]

Thanks will do. Which Polk and KEF bookshelf models do you specifically SUGGEST?

Babbler group are authorised dealers for QA. 3020 is very good, so is Concept 20. Audition them both. You can then visit pro fx to audition Polk and kef.

..:: Welcome to Babbler Group ::..

MaSh

Sent from my Redmi Note 3

 

[MaSh]

Thanks will do. Which Polk and KEF bookshelf models do you specifically SUGGEST?

Polk rti series and kef Q series are quite good.

MaSh

Sent from my Redmi Note 3

 

[humblebee]

What your friend needs at a minimum:
1) Smooth sounding spkr, amps and dac. Plus wires that do not make sound harsh.
2) Enough power in the amps so that there are extra reserves beyond regular usage. This is required for smooth sound as well.
3) All components should not be very laid back or they will suffer in timing.

So going through individual components
- Spkrs - I suggested q acoustics because it has smooth sound and natural sound at low price. Concept 20 model as suggested has even more of these.
- I have marantz 5004 amp and I regret low power. Also its a bit laid back. But you still want warmth...hence NAD. Now, I hope 316 is enough. Otherwise its 326 (This you will know by taking your dac along). Avoid yamaha, onkyo etc. Stick to Class AB amp.
- DAC - Your friend has got a very good one. BUT for smoothness and avoiding digital glare, ask him to upgrade to Modi Multibit. Yes this dac can be sent back and they will upgrade it. In fact when you go for demo take the multibit with you as that will expose whether the amp and spkrs are performing smoothly enough without digitization problems. This is important.
- Wires - I thought silver makes sound smooth. I have QED Silver anniversary spkr wires and they sound fine. I had a headphone woth silver coated wires and it did sound smooth. Though I haven't come across affordable silver interconnects. Do let me know if you find one!

Dont get confused with a lot of options...take frnd along for demo and both of you judge and trust yourselves. Dont wait to find out everything and THEN go for demo....start demoing and simultaneously interact here...and you will gain in knowledge.

I appreciate your helping your friend.

 

[vineetrad]

What about trying to balance a bright Yamaha amp with a non-bright speaker like the Wharfedale Diamond 220? Anyone running such a combo?

 

[vineetrad]

What your friend needs at a minimum:
1) Smooth sounding spkr, amps and dac. Plus wires that do not make sound harsh.
2) Enough power in the amps so that there are extra reserves beyond regular usage. This is required for smooth sound as well.
3) All components should not be very laid back or they will suffer in timing.

So going through individual components
- Spkrs - I suggested q acoustics because it has smooth sound and natural sound at low price. Concept 20 model as suggested has even more of these.
- I have marantz 5004 amp and I regret low power. Also its a bit laid back. But you still want warmth...hence NAD. Now, I hope 316 is enough. Otherwise its 326 (This you will know by taking your dac along). Avoid yamaha, onkyo etc. Stick to Class AB amp.
- DAC - Your friend has got a very good one. BUT for smoothness and avoiding digital glare, ask him to upgrade to Modi Multibit. Yes this dac can be sent back and they will upgrade it. In fact when you go for demo take the multibit with you as that will expose whether the amp and spkrs are performing smoothly enough without digitization problems. This is important.
- Wires - I thought silver makes sound smooth. I have QED Silver anniversary spkr wires and they sound fine. I had a headphone woth silver coated wires and it did sound smooth. Though I haven't come across affordable silver interconnects. Do let me know if you find one!

Dont get confused with a lot of options...take frnd along for demo and both of you judge and trust yourselves. Dont wait to find out everything and THEN go for demo....start demoing and simultaneously interact here...and you will gain in knowledge.

I appreciate your helping your friend.

Thanks all good info. One question though. At this price range is there any point in going for a multibit dac or even a regular higher end DAC like a Mojo, irDac 2 or above? I'm guessing the rest of the system isn't resolving enough especially since the sound changes from a decent accurate DAC like the Modi Uber 2 to expensive ones is subtle at best in the first place?

 

[PETER DASGUPTA]

I am tasked to setup the best vfm amp+stereo speaker setup for a friend. He is extremely sensitive to harshness in the midrange and highs - cymbals, high hats, piercing female voices all cause him to give up on most hifi speakers to date.

So the challenge is getting the smoothest most lush non fatiguing mid and high reproduction. Giving up some detail and resolution is fine but of course no one wants a mushy mess either.

Ideally amp+speakers with the best synergy to produce this sound. Equipment needs to be available for ready purchase in India.

Second challenge is within 60-70k for the amp+speakers. He plans to add a sub later so a deep low end isn't critical.

He already has a schiit modi Uber 2 dac and laptop source.

Suggestions?

Hi you can go for Dali Zensor 3 along with Marantz PM5005 and Cambridge Audio CA 351A both with Offer Prices going on.


Kindly contact on 7044065081 for further details.

 

[MaSh]

What about trying to balance a bright Yamaha amp with a non-bright speaker like the Wharfedale Diamond 220? Anyone running such a combo?

I am running the other way round. Warm Marantz Amp with bright Polk book shelf speakers. Combination sounds quite good.

However, its always good to audition the combination before hand.

MaSh

 

[humblebee]

What about trying to balance a bright Yamaha amp with a non-bright speaker like the Wharfedale Diamond 220? Anyone running such a combo?

I spoke abt avoiding yamaha etc from smoothness perspective not brightness.

Thanks all good info. One question though. At this price range is there any point in going for a multibit dac or even a regular higher end DAC like a Mojo, irDac 2 or above? I'm guessing the rest of the system isn't resolving enough especially since the sound changes from a decent accurate DAC like the Modi Uber 2 to expensive ones is subtle at best in the first place?

Modi uber 2 is good. But again as I pointed in my point 1, we need all 3 to be smooth - dac amp & spkr. What multibit does is that it upsamples music from 44.1 to 192. That makes a clear audible difference to me. And when I play 44.1, it sounds uncomfortable actually. Trust me, once he actually identifies the difference, it will be an 'aha' moment for him, like it was for me!

Cant speak about mojo, irdac etc.

But yes it will be a long term investment as it is the cheapest dac to offer good dynamics - another reason why digital sounds inferior to cassettes to me.

 

[humblebee]

@vineetrad
So how are you going to go abt it with a limited budget?
People will say diff things - someone will say buy 326 as amp is most imp. DAC lover will talk abt getting multibit. A spkr lover has already spoken.
But in my opinion and what is practically also seen is that most imp is you the listener. Your friend in this case. All this can get overwhelming for a newcomer and in excitement mistakes can be made. Therefore it is a good idea to go step by step.

That is - its imp to get the experience. My ideas have formed after listening to this system for some time. In this time, I was overjoyed at first. Over time my level increased (hearing ability) and then I researched and reached these conclusions (not easy I tell you. Thanks to the free time I have had). So it is after experience of basic hifi that im ready to upgrade.

So if your friend does not have any basic hifi experience then
1) Let him demo. Everyones sensitivity level is different. His sensitivity might be less than mine (quite possible as I have dived into this quite properly). Find a store that stocks NAD, Marantz, Q Acoustics and possibly Revel. Demo 3020 with marantz 5005 first with his current dac. Throw in qed profile interconnect and qed silver anniversary xt spkr wires and let him decide if its "more than enough for him". If yes then stick to this 60k combo. It would probably keep him satisfied for a few yrs. Who knows, this might be enough for him (I can understand if financially also he might find it difficult to upgrade even later. God hasn't shied away from freely sharing knowledge with me but for some reason he doesn't like sharing his money with me ...hahaha)

2) IF he finds it harsh or digitalized (Or if he straight away wants to go for the FINAL system). Well then, the strategy...you must understand that its imp to get the whole system right - sound comes from a combination of all 5 components. So the strategy will be a long term system building. Amp goes first or it will damage spkr. Get NAD 326. What are his current spkrs? If some then use them for now. Or get 3020 if none. Second upgrade should be dac...but obviously later for money issue. Spkr finally with Revel concerta 2 m16 for dynamics and others.

3) Sorry for this extra strategy but I do like to think from a social perspective. How is a common man expected to spend Rs 1.6L for a system an almost equivalent of which he could have had for Rs 20k in the era of cassettes 25 yrs back? (That should be 60k max today keeping in mind inflation etc). So is proper sound lost to him?

Obviously I had to think of a system for them.
DAC - Modi multibit. 28k. (if you have some energy, try to find a cheaper dac that has like 8 bits of actual resolution, should be a dual dac chip solution. Im like, I have searched enough but can't find one)
Amp - Norge Mosfet - Rs 16.5k
Spkrs - Norge New Millenium Rs 17k
Wires - 7k
Total - 70k
Now I haven't heard norge ...so its an idea right now...but if you like that kind of thinking then do a demo of such a system and find out if we can help others like this. Also help me increase my knowledge as well.
Kya karoon...fir bhi dil hai hindustani.

@drkrack,
Dear physician ... any comments?
Help some musically affected patients here. We are suffering from digititis! Wo kaun sa hippocratic oath hota hai tum logon ka...

All in good faith.

 

[drkrack]

@vineetrad
So how are you going to go abt it with a limited budget?
People will say diff things - someone will say buy 326 as amp is most imp. DAC lover will talk abt getting multibit. A spkr lover has already spoken.
But in my opinion and what is practically also seen is that most imp is you the listener. Your friend in this case. All this can get overwhelming for a newcomer and in excitement mistakes can be made. Therefore it is a good idea to go step by step.

That is - its imp to get the experience. My ideas have formed after listening to this system for some time. In this time, I was overjoyed at first. Over time my level increased (hearing ability) and then I researched and reached these conclusions (not easy I tell you. Thanks to the free time I have had). So it is after experience of basic hifi that im ready to upgrade.

So if your friend does not have any basic hifi experience then
1) Let him demo. Everyones sensitivity level is different. His sensitivity might be less than mine (quite possible as I have dived into this quite properly). Find a store that stocks NAD, Marantz, Q Acoustics and possibly Revel. Demo 3020 with marantz 5005 first with his current dac. Throw in qed profile interconnect and qed silver anniversary xt spkr wires and let him decide if its "more than enough for him". If yes then stick to this 60k combo. It would probably keep him satisfied for a few yrs. Who knows, this might be enough for him (I can understand if financially also he might find it difficult to upgrade even later. God hasn't shied away from freely sharing knowledge with me but for some reason he doesn't like sharing his money with me ...hahaha)

2) IF he finds it harsh or digitalized (Or if he straight away wants to go for the FINAL system). Well then, the strategy...you must understand that its imp to get the whole system right - sound comes from a combination of all 5 components. So the strategy will be a long term system building. Amp goes first or it will damage spkr. Get NAD 326. What are his current spkrs? If some then use them for now. Or get 3020 if none. Second upgrade should be dac...but obviously later for money issue. Spkr finally with Revel concerta 2 m16 for dynamics and others.

3) Sorry for this extra strategy but I do like to think from a social perspective. How is a common man expected to spend Rs 1.6L for a system an almost equivalent of which he could have had for Rs 20k in the era of cassettes 25 yrs back? (That should be 60k max today keeping in mind inflation etc). So is proper sound lost to him?

Obviously I had to think of a system for them.
DAC - Modi multibit. 28k. (if you have some energy, try to find a cheaper dac that has like 8 bits of actual resolution, should be a dual dac chip solution. Im like, I have searched enough but can't find one)
Amp - Norge Mosfet - Rs 16.5k
Spkrs - Norge New Millenium Rs 17k
Wires - 7k
Total - 70k
Now I haven't heard norge ...so its an idea right now...but if you like that kind of thinking then do a demo of such a system and find out if we can help others like this. Also help me increase my knowledge as well.
Kya karoon...fir bhi dil hai hindustani.

@drkrack,
Dear physician ... any comments?
Help some musically affected patients here. We are suffering from digititis! Wo kaun sa hippocratic oath hota hai tum logon ka...

All in good faith.

You've been working great (Oath says, if something isn't working then only consider changing it by the way) with helping him in deciding on the combo, I Mostly agree with Your suggestions, that is why I have hit Thanks to reinforce his decision.

Trust me, once he actually identifies the difference, it will be an 'aha' moment for him, like it was for me!


But yes it will be a long term investment as it is the cheapest dac to offer good dynamics - another reason why digital sounds inferior to cassettes to me.

You've completely floored me with these two sentences, even I was considering going back to Analog (Cassettes) but will invest in a good DAC & room acoustics before going back to Analog. But sadly Analog doesn't seem to have a good future.

Just checked with him he wants to stay digital. He's extra finicky and constantly complains even if there is a hint of digital glare. I know with certain recordings it will be inevitable whatever one does so I've set that expectation but would be great to know what all to keep in mind including the speakers and other stuff. Right now my checklist is:
A speaker amp with a synergy to produce the desired sound signature
Speaker wire without silver
Decent soft furnishing and carpeting in his room
Avoiding excessive glass surfaces in the room
Decent interconnects

He seems to have a clear idea of the sound he wants to listen to, Unfortunately , only he can conclude what suits him, he needs to keep on auditioning to arrive at the system of his choice.

Tip: You won't get realistic demo and all required combos in any single place, He needs to be on road first to get somewhere; Audition whatever is available in his price range, THen look for OLX/Quickr ads talk to the owners, surprisingly most of them will oblige you with a demo (audiophiles are generally kindhearted people you see :clapping, even though you clarify that you won't be buying the system from them. I have done this quite a lot times and I have been successful in getting a demo in majority of cases. This demo at Houses is much more realistic than the ones in acoustically calibrated demo rooms where everything sounds very good.

What about trying to balance a bright Yamaha amp with a non-bright speaker like the Wharfedale Diamond 220? Anyone running such a combo?

It is a good combination, they both pair very well, make it diamond 225 & Yamaha A-S301 both in the budget.
I have three possible suggestions depending upon the tastes this person has...

1. Buy Used stuff from OLX/Hifiads there's good NAD C352 on sale, buy pair of Used bookshelves - Change it if you don't like it you won't loose much- keep experimenting. It is always a safe bet to buy less than 4 years used speakers , they are a great VFM, someone has already taken the hit of initial depreciation & he has done the Break In of drivers for you !

2. Digital offers an unmatched user friendliness over analog so buy an All in one type solution and a current Gen amp which sounds most musical according to general opinion.
Marantz CR611 (has SW out, Analog preout) + Dali Zenzor 3 / Polk A3/ MA BX2 etc he might have to shell another 10k over his current budget. CR611 has every option to incorporate a bliss (or curse ) of digital music.

3. Buy a good Vintage amp, I'm sure he would love the sound signature(he will save lot of money to spare), add a good DAC like Schiit M2U Multibit or higher , buy less brighter speakers like Wharfs , Mordaunt short, Heco or MAs etc (again buying a used BS is much better option).If later say, He decides to go back to Analog ,he can still retain the amp easily & upgrade it if he wants to continue with digital. Honestly I will go with Option 1 or 2 !

Whatever he says, first ask him to subscribe to apple music and build system compatible for it, the digital mastering of the tracks is much better over there in most instances and it is very user friendly. I keep coming back to digital mainly because of it.
keep us posted

 

[humblebee]

Hifiads also has a nad 326 for 25k...

keep us posted

@vineetrad......
The internet has lots of info that you can get in a jiffy....on forums you can get many suggestions....but all the tech in the world cant post the knowledge and experience on the internet...its people who do.
Who care.

@drcrack
Ohh so thats the hippocratic oath...
I was having aamir khan & 3 idiots in mind....
Something like .... if you see someone in distress then help.

 

[shibashis]

I personally feel the notion that digital audio being brittle/shrill/harsh is a myth, perhaps not quite a myth but exaggerated certainly. I realize fully well that I am opening a can of worms with this statement but that is just my opinion. A good DAC (relevant of course what is 'good') with the rightly balanced setup will not sound harsh, I have found that in quite a few occasions. Often overlooked but the room plays such a big part in how the resultant music sounds like.

My personal advice would be to go with Marantz over NAD, the former is more resolving amp than NAD, not necessarily bright but definitely more balanced. Can not fault Q Acoustics for speaker suggestions but do look at some others.
KEF Q300 should be on the top of the list, will be within the budget too since no expense needed on a DAC.
Dali Zensor 3, a favourite choice of many and very good speakers.
Look for Usher V601, fantastic speakers, best I found in the sub 50K range, used to be around 40, maybe a bit more now. If your friend is not averse to used equipment then an used B&W 602 will suit him very nicely, beautiful languid and lucid sound with those.

This one is straight out of the left-field:
Get an used Marantz or Cambridge Audio for about 20K, use the rest to buy a Dynaudio Emit 20 (can get it for about 50K), nothing can beat the performance of that setup in this budget.

 

[humblebee]

I personally feel the notion that digital audio being brittle/shrill/harsh is a myth, perhaps not quite a myth but exaggerated certainly. I realize fully well that I am opening a can of worms with this statement but that is just my opinion. A good DAC (relevant of course what is 'good') with the rightly balanced setup will not sound harsh, I have found that in quite a few occasions. Often overlooked but the room plays such a big part in how the resultant music sounds like.

My personal advice would be to go with Marantz over NAD, the former is more resolving amp than NAD, not necessarily bright but definitely more balanced. Can not fault Q Acoustics for speaker suggestions but do look at some others.
KEF Q300 should be on the top of the list, will be within the budget too since no expense needed on a DAC.
Dali Zensor 3, a favourite choice of many and very good speakers.
Look for Usher V601, fantastic speakers, best I found in the sub 50K range, used to be around 40, maybe a bit more now. If your friend is not averse to used equipment then an used B&W 602 will suit him very nicely, beautiful languid and lucid sound with those.

This one is straight out of the left-field:
Get an used Marantz or Cambridge Audio for about 20K, use the rest to buy a Dynaudio Emit 20 (can get it for about 50K), nothing can beat the performance of that setup in this budget.

@shibashis
I have some questions regarding your response. I hope you can take it in the right spirit. I do not know you and trust is in short supply in the modern world...but im old fashioned and I hope I gain some of your trust...

You are right that a good dac, like the one he has will sound OK. But its been mentioned many times that we have sensitive ears that are looking for extra smoothness. Its been emphasized many times in posts.

But no, I'm positive that there are NO cheaper ladder or RtoR dacs at that price point. But i wanted to save him tech jargon and hedaches. And it also has an upsampler. Yes that makes things smoother so more tolerable. But let us know if there is a cheaper one.

It wont open any can of crawling worms because I cant help if I can identify artificiality in digital music. 44.1 makes me uncomfortable actually. It also doesnt help if I remember how my amazing pioneer stereo cassette player used to sound...life like and dynamic...even in pop songs of sadhna sargam.
If its any consolation then I wish my ears were less sensitive.
But then I am thankful also that like this I can help others.
So I guess must be for other people with sensitive ears.
I hope it doesn't become that thing which the western world uses to so quickly compartmentalise people..."oh they are sensitive people with special needs"..thats shallow.

Thats a lot of speakers. Demo already seems difficult. This might seem insurmountable to him thus discouraging him. One or 2 suggestions which we practically know or have researched well should put him at greater ease.

I haven't demoed or researched the spkrs that you mention but I surmise that they (except zensor 3 which is a different category. Others are in higher bracket) will be
- too much for a basic system
- too less for a dynamic system
Thus putting him neither here nor there.. that too when he is limited on budget.

Nice to hear abt NAD being less resolving. All the more better. But a 20k amp ... again neither here nor there...the strategy is not clear here to me.
Also CA is bright amp...pairing with warm spkr will make sound neutral...but we want warm sound.

But I would like to hear your experiences as well.

In good faith...

[Straight out of the left field means??? Hitting a Six on the leg side?]

 

[vineetrad]

Ok so we went to profx and auditioned the Q300, and the Polk RTi A3 and just for the heck of it the Q700s. It was playing off a Denon Amp.

The Polks are out. My friend found the highs relatively sharper and the midrange less smooth than the Q300s. the Q300 he liked better.

Now off to try the Q Acoustic 2020, 3020 and Concept 20 and then the Dali Zensor 1 and 3 and the Wharfedale Diamond 121, 220 over the weekend.

Also thinking of trying the B&W 685 s2 (outside price range but he's willing to extend if anything really wows him soundwise apparently)