Caught in Crossroads

[Mi_10]

So After dipping my feet in this Cavernous Money pit called Home Audio (ST and HT), finally came to a conclusion that HT was not my cup of tea.
Firstly, at this stage of my life, there is simply no way i can spend 3 hours at a stretch in a single room !! Just way too many interruptions
Secondly, my community has a 150 seat theater done by Proper Professionals (Complete with Sony PJ, Yamaha 11.1 receiver, Crown Power Amps, JBL Boxes all around) and they screen some movie or the other every week!
Finally, I figured out that this ST+HT combo always ends up in a compromise for atleast one of the two, (if not both)

After the initial Euphoria of new HT, reality dawned on me. We did watch few movies in first two months, But most of the remaining 10 months the HT equipment's were just sitting there and staring at me for ruining their life ! lol! Finally pulled the plug and sold off everything, hope they find good use in new owner's Home!

Now, coming back to my ST setup. I always felt the high's were way too laid back and controlled (had even mentioned in my thread) and i was very sure it was because of the M3i's signature. So my first precedence was to change the Amp, preferably go with the Combo since universally same Brand's DAC-AMP combo's have always worked pretty well. I ended up with a matching Half chassis Naim NAP 100 to pair with my DAC.

Now i know it is too early to comment, since the Amp is not even entered double digits when it comes to hours played, i feel the bottom end has become very artificial and overtly punchy! While i am extremely pleased with the High's and Mids as they now have lot of excitement and liveliness , the low end remains a concern. I am in no hurry though, i will wait till the burn in completes to see how it sounds.
Yesterday though of an experiment and used the Musical Fidelity as a Preamp feeding into the Naim, and to my wonder it totally brought back the naturalness of Bass! It did again dark out the high's to an extent but not really in a bad way ! Infact i feel it sounds very classy especially for Jazz, Blues and Organ based music! But there are other areas of concern, like I am still running these off a average Stick PC, stock power cables, and the fan makes a lot of noise, haven't fixed the AC since there was work going on in the other. In few songs, i could feel the room could do with some proper acoustic treatment, etc.. and etc..

Now that i thing to focus on, thought i will do something to improve the overall listening experience of this setup, But i dont know which one to prioritize or which path to take !Here are my options, please let me know what you think;

> Improve Source | Move away from noisy Computer audio and Invest in a good CDP / CDT / Streamer

> Work on Acoustics | Work on the room itself and then add isolation components to equipment to bring better fidelity

> Power upgrade | Maybe its time to start from basics and invest in a separate Transformer, or maybe add some Regen stuff and then upgrade the Power Cables
> Secondary Setup | Well the Naim Combo is quite famous and perhaps its time to invest in the correct speaker to get the results, and use the Xavian + Musical Fidelity Combo as secondary setup just by adding a decent DAC

> Turn full Mental | Sell Everything and Start from Scratch ! (Easier said than Done!)

I don't have unlimited budget to take on everything ! So i can probably take up 1 or max of 2 options at this point.

Please chime in your opinion gentlemen

@mpw @zeta148 @celester340 @drkrack @ONEMANARMY @Santy @JayaRaa @Mayank Shah

 

[mpw]

start small..

a. run the setup for maybe a 2 weeks more...

b. have you had any movement on the speaker cables ?

c. Naim amps do not like conditioners... what they like is to be plugged into a power strip or directly to the wall

but the wall outlet must have preferably dedicated line ( prefer 10 Gauge or maybe 12 gauge ) taken from the mains

d. I wrote about the absorbers as well..behind the speakers. I see from your pics - you have space.

you can do point C and point D while the amp runs in...wont cost much.

the rest you can do once you get thru with these things first.

Put up your pics here - others can suggest as well.

regarding computer sources and DAC's etc... i am not much into it.

regards

 

[Mi_10]

Thanks Mahesh,

yes. I have ordered the Belden 8477, should be getting this over the weekend

On the absorbers i am yet to explore, will check out few options.

I used to run a Power Strip, but last week i upgraded it. I made a custom box like this directly from the Room Main cables. Now each of these sockets are connected to the main line separately.

Attaching a pic for reference

 

[ONEMANARMY]

Firstly please let the system settle and your ears acclimatise, for a couple of weeks at least, as correctly suggested by mpv

Secondly, I would strongly recommend getting acoustic treatment done, especially for low frequency. Once you get the lows to dissipate, the highs and mids should get cleaner and clearer.
Then you can decide if the sound is to your liking or not.

Later even if you change/upgrade source, amp or speakers, the room treatment will not be money down the drain.

 

[mpw]

Thanks Mahesh,

yes. I have ordered the Belden 8477, should be getting this over the weekend

On the absorbers i am yet to explore, will check out few options.

I used to run a Power Strip, but last week i upgraded it. I made a custom box like this directly from the Room Main cables. Now each of these sockets are connected to the main line separately.

Attaching a pic for reference

View attachment 38595

absorbers - nothing much to check out IMO

6 inch frame + Aural exchange Nankarrow Geowool ( 1 box per absorber ) + select covering cloth matching to your decor ( not too thick but a bit transparent ) and you are on your way

Regarding power strip - i dont think you have understood my post

take a separate line 10 gauge wire or 12 gauge wire from your mains ( L + N + G ) and get it near your system on the wall ( 15A outlet )

use a power strip to plug into that.

I got good results with a normal belkin power strip

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its simple..

Please use a good electrician fr Safety and to ensure L + N + G is proper.

regards

 

[rikhav]

Thanks Mahesh,

yes. I have ordered the Belden 8477, should be getting this over the weekend

On the absorbers i am yet to explore, will check out few options.

I used to run a Power Strip, but last week i upgraded it. I made a custom box like this directly from the Room Main cables. Now each of these sockets are connected to the main line separately.

Attaching a pic for reference

View attachment 38595

You made the same mistake as me
I have made an extension box in exactly same way.
With thciker power cords the sockets in the middle are absolutely unuseable

 

[rikhav]

Adding a allo usbridge will surely give you good upgrade in sound vs using a PC as source
Even if you use it without a linear supply it's a big step up from a desktop PC / laptop
Use the volumio software which is compatible with it and is free .

What DAC do you have in your setup?

 

[drkrack]

Room
Basic absorption at first reflection points, Thick Carpet on the floor, with diffuser in the center area behind speakers is minimal requirement unless you're hiring a professional. Investment in Room treatment goes a long way in the audiophile journey. The bass issue is bit hard to be tamed by room treatment so use a Umik and do proper measurements. Employ digital room correction if required.

Power
A dedicated 4 sqmm wiring (6sqmm will be much better) from MCB to HT socket without any interference from Fans /Lights etc will improve the SQ. Also a dedicated 3kva Servo Stabilizer is a must in my opinion.

Source
A dedicated streamer or audiophile CD player is a must in my opinion. My train of thought was similar in my case, 40k for i5 compact PC With SSD for music server. 15 - 25k for LPSU for the PC. 10 - 20k for for mitigating USB noise like ISO Regen, better USB Cable etc coming close to 70k. I dropped the idea midway (after buying PC) and bought a Streamer like Cxn V2. The simplicity and ease of use is quite great. With more and more usage of streaming services Streamer is a good investment. The DAC can be added later.
If you have a CD collection invest in a CD player.

Make HT Easy to use
I had similar issue of HT not getting used frequently. I just made it less complicated to use, bought a Firetv and taught my 7yr old how to use it for cartoons etc. Now it's being used regularly for 1hr by my kids, they've ditched the TV completely seeing the advantage of Large screen and SQ.

 

[Mi_10]

Adding a allo usbridge will surely give you good upgrade in sound vs using a PC as source
Even if you use it without a linear supply it's a big step up from a desktop PC / laptop
Use the volumio software which is compatible with it and is free .

What DAC do you have in your setup?

Naim DAC V1

Room
Basic absorption at first reflection points, Thick Carpet on the floor, with diffuser in the center area behind speakers is minimal requirement unless you're hiring a professional. Investment in Room treatment goes a long way in the audiophile journey. The bass issue is bit hard to be tamed by room treatment so use a Umik and do proper measurements.

Source
A dedicated streamer or audiophile CD player is a must in my opinion. My train of thought was similar in my case, 40k for i5 compact PC With SSD for music server. 15 - 25k for LPSU for the PC. 10 - 20k for for mitigating USB noise like ISO Regen, better USB Cable etc coming close to 70k. I dropped the idea midway (after buying PC) and bought a Streamer like Cxn V2. The simplicity and ease of use is quite great. With more and more usage of streaming services Streamer is a good investment. The DAC can be added later.
If you have a CD collection invest in a CD player.

Thanks @drkrack some of things are very true !
Although the Allobridge route seems to be the most cost-effective solution, i am kinda skeptical on the ease of use on daily basis. I am tilting towards CDP / Streaming Player because of the Time taken to setup PC / Allobridge route. I just need to plug, play, sit and switch off. This Loading on to windows, and then to playlist while dangling with multiple wires running across

 

[MaSh]

Oh boy that's exactly the boat I am in too. Just about finished selling off everything. I too realised HT is great only if it's used regularly. Mine wasn't seeing any action at all.

Building up a stereo setup now with separate pre and power amps. Source is a pc as of now with Modi mb dac. My pc runs 24 hrs with content shared over thr network. Priority for this system is convenience and simplicity.

MaSh

 

[rikhav]

Everything new gets time getting used to
Yes, I will not paint a Rosy picture that allo usbridge is simple

There are few niggles initially here and there, but once you get past it I don't see it as anything difficult to use.

Ofcourse, nothing as simple as a CDP. But then buy something which does justice to a naim amp and dac.

Otherwise if you want something cost effective and plays truly superb, (sort of punches way above it's price), then it's the allo usbridge

 

[Mi_10]

Everything new gets time getting used to
Yes, I will not paint a Rosy picture that allo usbridge is simple

There are few niggles initially here and there, but once you get past it I don't see it as anything difficult to use.

Ofcourse, nothing as simple as a CDP. But then buy something which does justice to a naim amp and dac.

Otherwise if you want something cost effective and plays truly superb, (sort of punches way above it's price), then it's the allo usbridge

Thanks Rikhav for the feedback. Will surely give it a shot should I go the computer way

 

[Mayank Shah]

Hello @Mi_10 , many solid suggestions already. I am so glad you had this dawn of reality. Wish I had more dawning myself. Just when I think I see some dawning, I am brainwashed into picking something totally unexpected which clouds the dawning process. My Yamaha + Dali 5.1 HT setup is also very idle most of the time.

I am not a believer in burn in or run in but won't stir up a revolution against it either. Something like tubes warming up, Amps working better when a bit hot yes. I am just not technical enough to understand why there is a synchronised transitional modulation of electrons after an X amount of recommended burn in. Ok, jokes apart and maa kasam.....no offense meant to anyone whatsoever. This is just me.

This Naim thing about power outlets and Naim specific cables are a put off for me, although I admit that I almost picked up a Naim 5si from a fellow FM for my Emit 20. Maybe it's just a question of Naim speaker cables, although I am not sure if the Naim NACAs are applicable to your model.

Both your Naim gear are well regarded. Who knows, it might get seriously good after a while. You have good gear already.

Just by hearing if you feel that your room needs correction, then yes it surely does. No room is perfect and that's about any room in the world. It dawned only very recently that room correction is undoubtedly very important. All I have been able to comprehend (and not) thus far about it is, 1) Each room treatment is specific to that room. 2) Properly treated room will bring out the best sonic character of your gear in your space and it's not necessary that someone else would like the sound signature. 3) A Bolton speaker is not going to sound like a Sonus Faber, it is going to sound like a good Bolton. 4) A good deal of correction can be achieved by playing around with the placements of the gear, furniture, furnishings etc., 5) Room treated for a particular setup may not be totally compatible for another setup - but it wouldnt be a waste either, maybe only some minor mods required. 6) Try different cables / combos etc, if you can really enjoy the sound with that only, then you can plan for treatment.

If you feel that some combo is good for particular genres then there is something to look into. I believe that you are in Chennai and it shouldn't be much hassle to carry your gear. Maybe you could visit a few FM's homes and check. Since you are not comfortable with the Allo setup, look into the Paradigm PW link. I got mine for 22k from Amazon In. It's a network streamer with DAC and ARC. I am very happy with the SQ. Maybe even just some basic ARC might help. Your Naim DAC has an USB port right, so would it be correct to say that although you are taking the usb out from pc, the DAC should be doing all the noise correction, so why would you say that the source is bad.....most of us have it this way. Pc usb out to dac usb in. I am sure you would have tried the same tracks from different PCs.

I am totally for a separate power line from your mains to your setup, proper rew measurements etc., But I wouldn't go overboard on power conditioners, regens etc like you said.....not yet.

Do seriously consider a pair of good speakers for your Naim, they do need proper pairing. My first ever audition was at Profx Chennai. NAD 356 and Kef Q900 FS sounded horrible, same bloated flabby bass. Once hooked up with the Polk RtiA7 it was wonderfully different and we were all back home happily within an hour.

To sum it up:
1. Try the same tracks with different pc/ laptop to confirm any PC issues. Go mental on the PC, format, reinstall, update.
2. Beg, borrow, steal few speaker cables, interconnects
3. Certainly look into different speakers. Take your Naim gear around.
4. After you've found the dream combo, enjoy the music, it might even dawn on you to forget about the room treatment.

If you are in Chennai, bring your gear over to my place, you can check out the Paradigm streamer. I may have a surprise for you as well. It is also in my interest to hear the Naim...

I may have said something which already some respected FM's have mentioned. Just my thoughts and not intended to hurt anyone's feelings or knowledge. No animals were harmed at the time of this post.

 

[Mi_10]

If you are in Chennai, bring your gear over to my place, you can check out the Paradigm streamer. I may have a surprise for you as well. It is also in my interest to hear the Naim...

I may have said something which already some respected FM's have mentioned. Just my thoughts and not intended to hurt anyone's feelings or knowledge. No animals were harmed at the time of this post.

Thanks a lot for such an elaborate reply sir. Will connect with you over PM

 

[liverpool_for_life]

> Work on Acoustics | Work on the room itself and then add isolation components to equipment to bring better fidelity

My first recommendation for any untreated room will be to treat it. Any chance of measurements in your room so we can figure out the mystery of your missing bass?

 

[Mi_10]

My first recommendation for any untreated room will be to treat it. Any chance of measurements in your room so we can figure out the mystery of your missing bass?

Will try to get some basic measurements , but issue is not missing bass its enhanced or overtly artificial bass

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Will try to get some basic measurements , but issue is not missing bass its enhanced or overtly artificial bass

Right. I misread your post. If you could post both measurements (not just the one where you feel the bass is artificially high), it'll be useful.

 

[metalmickey]

Hello @Mi_10 , many solid suggestions already. I am so glad you had this dawn of reality. Wish I had more dawning myself. Just when I think I see some dawning, I am brainwashed into picking something totally unexpected which clouds the dawning process. My Yamaha + Dali 5.1 HT setup is also very idle most of the time.

I am not a believer in burn in or run in but won't stir up a revolution against it either. Something like tubes warming up, Amps working better when a bit hot yes. I am just not technical enough to understand why there is a synchronised transitional modulation of electrons after an X amount of recommended burn in. Ok, jokes apart and maa kasam.....no offense meant to anyone whatsoever. This is just me.

This Naim thing about power outlets and Naim specific cables are a put off for me, although I admit that I almost picked up a Naim 5si from a fellow FM for my Emit 20. Maybe it's just a question of Naim speaker cables, although I am not sure if the Naim NACAs are applicable to your model.

Both your Naim gear are well regarded. Who knows, it might get seriously good after a while. You have good gear already.

Just by hearing if you feel that your room needs correction, then yes it surely does. No room is perfect and that's about any room in the world. It dawned only very recently that room correction is undoubtedly very important. All I have been able to comprehend (and not) thus far about it is, 1) Each room treatment is specific to that room. 2) Properly treated room will bring out the best sonic character of your gear in your space and it's not necessary that someone else would like the sound signature. 3) A Bolton speaker is not going to sound like a Sonus Faber, it is going to sound like a good Bolton. 4) A good deal of correction can be achieved by playing around with the placements of the gear, furniture, furnishings etc., 5) Room treated for a particular setup may not be totally compatible for another setup - but it wouldnt be a waste either, maybe only some minor mods required. 6) Try different cables / combos etc, if you can really enjoy the sound with that only, then you can plan for treatment.

If you feel that some combo is good for particular genres then there is something to look into. I believe that you are in Chennai and it shouldn't be much hassle to carry your gear. Maybe you could visit a few FM's homes and check. Since you are not comfortable with the Allo setup, look into the Paradigm PW link. I got mine for 22k from Amazon In. It's a network streamer with DAC and ARC. I am very happy with the SQ. Maybe even just some basic ARC might help. Your Naim DAC has an USB port right, so would it be correct to say that although you are taking the usb out from pc, the DAC should be doing all the noise correction, so why would you say that the source is bad.....most of us have it this way. Pc usb out to dac usb in. I am sure you would have tried the same tracks from different PCs.

I am totally for a separate power line from your mains to your setup, proper rew measurements etc., But I wouldn't go overboard on power conditioners, regens etc like you said.....not yet.

Do seriously consider a pair of good speakers for your Naim, they do need proper pairing. My first ever audition was at Profx Chennai. NAD 356 and Kef Q900 FS sounded horrible, same bloated flabby bass. Once hooked up with the Polk RtiA7 it was wonderfully different and we were all back home happily within an hour.

To sum it up:
1. Try the same tracks with different pc/ laptop to confirm any PC issues. Go mental on the PC, format, reinstall, update.
2. Beg, borrow, steal few speaker cables, interconnects
3. Certainly look into different speakers. Take your Naim gear around.
4. After you've found the dream combo, enjoy the music, it might even dawn on you to forget about the room treatment.

If you are in Chennai, bring your gear over to my place, you can check out the Paradigm streamer. I may have a surprise for you as well. It is also in my interest to hear the Naim...

I may have said something which already some respected FM's have mentioned. Just my thoughts and not intended to hurt anyone's feelings or knowledge. No animals were harmed at the time of this post.

the last line though... you got away with the case of the missing cable...( loads of emoji used but none visible here)