CD player or ext. DA-converter?
- Thread starter spirovious
- Start date
Hi its very subjective, a good high end CDP is way better than standard dvdp +avg dac ! Same goes if avg cdp standard dvdp+avg dac = can be even or better !
OR for exm: if i want a player setup i will choose you dvdp+dac around 25k rather than buying cdp for 25k ! As i assume we all are budget conscious buyer here & want to go for inteligent buying ,not for the impulsive buying !! We all want the VFM & bettter connecting options ! By choosing dvdp+dac option i can increase the utilization of dac by connecting it to many gear rather than sticking to cdp only ! Apart from that imo a dac is far better option than spending money on comp sound card !
OR if you can spend 45k than go for CA 740C which can be used as dac !
Good Luck
RB9
spirovious
Well-Known Member
Thanks yar,I got very nice aswer from you.
I m offered Parasound 1100HD DAC & I dont know abt Parasound.
Specifications are much better.
Can you tell me abt Parasound as company & it's DAC in perticular?
check this-http://www.parasound.com/vintage/dac1100.php
My setup- Onida DVD player,Profigold coax, Onkyo HT-S580, Tannoy F1
custom
Hi, i saw the post from robot........it hits badly at heart but makes sense ! Again it depends as how much is the price for parasound & yes its a gamble for any ordinary person to invest in such old gear unless or until you are vintage freak who don't mind investing money for Buying & MAINTAINING audio gear ! There is nothing wrong in buying Vintage product but one should have the capabilities to MAINTAIN them ! As my boss (German) told me (vintage freak for Cars & Audio gear )once that : Passion for Vintage is like buying Elephant where you need to invest lot more money & time to maintain it !
Choose wisely
Good Luck
RB9
moktan said:
Moktan, please understand that any audio device (CDP, DVD, amps) that has digital input and analogue outputs will have a DAC inside. Now why add an external DAC? To improve the sound of your existing devices. If you are going to buy a new device, does it make sense to buy another inexpensive device and try to improve it's quality?
Let us look at the options we have.
1. I have a universal DVD player connected to a reasonably good music system. I want to use the DVD player for music also. Remember a budget DVD player is optimised for decoding multi channel sound and video signals. It is handling a minimum of 6 audio channels at any time. The manufacturers are under pressure to keep the price low. So something has to be compromised, and it usually is the stereo or music part. The front two channels are treated the same way as all other channels. In this situation, a good DAC will go a long way in improving the sound for playing music.
2. I have a HT system, a music system, and lots of CDs. In addition I am converting all my CDs to digital files in compressed or uncompressed formats. I have a HT system in my living room where all the devices are stored. I have also set up a small music system in my bedroom, or let us say a high end music system also in my living room. In this situation I need to have a DAC to play all the files from my computer system. As I am doing this, I can also use the DAC to improve the sound from my CDP, and DVD Player. Here again, if you buy something like a Squeezebox or a Sonos system, they have excellent DACs. But if I use a PC based wireless network, I would need a DAC.
3. I have a very good DVD Player, and am looking to buy either a good CDP, or a DAC Here the decision becomes difficult. You have to start looking at your long term plans and go for or avoid a DAC.
As Moserw has said, audio nirvana or superior sound is very difficult to quantify or justify. Just to give you an example, when I was auditioning the Audire systems in Coimbatore, I noticed that there was a Benchmark DAC1 in the chain. For years I have read about the DAC1, and literally lusted after it. It has been there in my list of must buys. And whatever music I heard from the system sounded wonderful. So when one of the Audire guys said he has heard better DACs, all my dreams were shattered.
I have heard systems costing 20,000 to as much as 20 lakhs with and without DACs. They all sounded nice in their own rights. Will I be able to say one is better than the other? I will be lying if I say yes without a number of conditions added to that statement.
If you are looking to improve the sound of your system, it is very difficult to answer whether a device will vastly improve the sound or provide superior sound. Can you list what all you are missing from your present system. Have you heard other 'improved' systems. Have you heard the same song in multiple systems and are able to clearly make out what is missing and what is not? Have you heard a same song 100s of times and do you recognise each and every single nuance of the song? When does a instrument start, what is it's tone?
Why am I saying this? There are two ways to listening to music. One is when you are doing a lot of things, and you want music to be playing in the background. When you want to listen to music before going to sleep. When you want to listen to some romantic or peppy numbers to change your mood. In this situation, a decent sounding system is more than enough.
The other situation is when you are am music buff, and you want to listen to music with your eyes closed, no external distraction, no external sound, and your mind focussed on the music. When you know what songs are contained in each CD. When you are very familiar with some of the songs that you listen to regularly. When you know to the second when a tome will change, when an instrument will start, or when the singer will take a deep breath. In this situation, you have to use your ears, listen to a lot of systems, and decide which combination sounds best for you within the budget you have.
So which group do you belong to? Your decision to buy something will depend upon that.
Moserw said:
Though these terms may mean the same, and can be used either way, there are simple guidelines to differentiate between the use of the terms oversampling and upsampling
In the transfer process between digital and analogue domains, oversampling is used to describe a step when a sample of data or signal is sampled or read much above the frequency that is actually specified or required. This involves multiplying the sampling frequency by an even number such as 2, 4, 6 or 8. So when you take a Redbook CD and over-sample it at 8x, you are increasing the base rate from 44.1KHz to 352.8KHz. In this case you introduce 7 new samples between 44.1 and 352.8KHz. What are these samples? Are they just empty? Well yes and no.
For one, a analogue signal is a smooth curve. When converted to digital this becomes a stepped stair-like curve. When you are converting back to analogue you recreate the original smooth curve by calculating the positions of the smooth curve from between the digital steps through a process of approximation. Oversampling increases the number of steps and brings them closer to each other making the process of approximation more accurate and smoother.
Secondly, it has also been observed that when you convert from analogue to digital, phantom or echo signals are created which are placed at frequencies higher than the sampled frequency. These are also called images of the base data. In a 44.1kHz system, according to the Nyquist rule, the base signal extends from 0Hz to 22.05kHz. The first echo or image is inverted and extends from 44.1kHz down to 22.05kHz, the second image extends from 44.1kHz to 66.15kHz, and so on. Oversampling is used to identify these echoes and remove them from the output signal.
Thus oversampling is used to help the DAC work more linearly or smoothly. Oversampling also helps the last step in the DAC process - that of the reconstruction filters. Oversampling helps remove aliases which are distortions or noises that are introduced by the sampling process. Without over sampling, reconstruction filters have to work in a brutal manner, by simply cutting off some frequencies called stop-band rejection. With oversampling, these filters have more data to work with and create a smoother analogue curve.
Oversampling is done in both DAC and ADC processes.
Upsampling is generally done only in the DAC process. Here the data stream is stretched by interpolation. If you remember, I mentioned above the process of creating more data points in the digital curve. Interpolation does this using a process called polynomial curve fitting. When this is done in small non-integer steps (such as from 44.1KHZ to 48Khz) it is called upsampling.
This is what Jeff Kalt. Founder of Resolution Audio has to say about up and over sampling.
"From recent usage, I can only conclude that upsampling is any technique that increases the sample rate, for example from 44.1 to 96 kHz. Oversampling, in contrast, is a form of upsampling where the rate is increased by an integer multiple, that is, 4x, 8x, etc. For audiophile purposes, both processes are used for one reason: to reduce the artifacts of the digital to analogue converter. No new information is created -- once the original has been sampled at 44.1 kHz, anything above 22 kHz is lost forever. The whole idea of upsampling is just to make the d/a converter behave more ideally and introduce fewer artifacts into the analogue audio signal."
spirovious said:
Parasound is a very respected company. The company has kept away from competing in the narket to ensure they deliver superb products. I have already written to you about the DAC, and as mentioned above, my only worry about the Parasound DAC is it's age.
Cheers
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reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
Great info other than this bit - there exist non oversampling DAC chips such as the Philips TDA1543. I'm currently using a DAC based upon this and this has no digital filters at the output stage to remove the phantom images either. Infact it doesn't even have an active component at the output for gain. It only has an RC network at the output. This is completely against accepted industry practices.
However to say that this DAC sounds sublime is an understatement.
Here's an interesting article about NOS dacs
http://www.sakurasystems.com/articles/Kusunoki.html
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sorry if it is a little diversion ...
i am adding the idea of DIY transport here
While using external DAC ..a good transport is needed ...
the thread link at diyaudio contains full details of making this :
out of low cost boom box
Check this thread
this source is claimed to be better than the DVD players .
i am adding the idea of DIY transport here
While using external DAC ..a good transport is needed ...
the thread link at diyaudio contains full details of making this :
out of low cost boom box
Check this thread
this source is claimed to be better than the DVD players .
My 5 paise to this thread about CD Players or DACs:
I was in the same quandary up until the last few days. Finally I decided to go for a HTPC build with an internal sound card rather than an external DAC. In general what I found was that the soundcards tended to compromise on stereo sound quality in PCM and on the Noise front only to load themselves up with features such as 'Crystallization', better quality output from MP3's, support for Doly Digital or DTS etc. On the other hand, DACs focussed on stereo music quality but in general did not seem to cater to the HT enthusiast by offering the various digital processing modes like Dolby Digital or DTS etc.
I then came across the ASUS Xonar D2x sound card and was hooked by the specifications and the claims and the reviews. And the fact that these cards were considered good enough to be connected and evaluated with hifi systems having Arcam amps and Sonus Faber speakers did them no disservice. I have bought it and am now enjoying the sound. Considering that my earlier source was a Samsung DVD Player, the current arrangement is working fantastically well. Redbook CDs are being ripped to FLAC format and the FLAC files are being played on TheKMPlayer via the sound card.
I like the flexibility that this sound card and the entire HTPC gives me in terms of being able to listen to music as well as to switch over to movies or surround sound with a mouse click. That it involves a mouse click instead of a remote control button maybe a negative point for some though
I was in the same quandary up until the last few days. Finally I decided to go for a HTPC build with an internal sound card rather than an external DAC. In general what I found was that the soundcards tended to compromise on stereo sound quality in PCM and on the Noise front only to load themselves up with features such as 'Crystallization', better quality output from MP3's, support for Doly Digital or DTS etc. On the other hand, DACs focussed on stereo music quality but in general did not seem to cater to the HT enthusiast by offering the various digital processing modes like Dolby Digital or DTS etc.
I then came across the ASUS Xonar D2x sound card and was hooked by the specifications and the claims and the reviews. And the fact that these cards were considered good enough to be connected and evaluated with hifi systems having Arcam amps and Sonus Faber speakers did them no disservice. I have bought it and am now enjoying the sound. Considering that my earlier source was a Samsung DVD Player, the current arrangement is working fantastically well. Redbook CDs are being ripped to FLAC format and the FLAC files are being played on TheKMPlayer via the sound card.
I like the flexibility that this sound card and the entire HTPC gives me in terms of being able to listen to music as well as to switch over to movies or surround sound with a mouse click. That it involves a mouse click instead of a remote control button maybe a negative point for some though
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Very interesting. As you say completely against industry standards.
Which DAC are you using?
Cheers
Hi Venket, Non-Oversampling DAC concept was first proposed by Ryohei Kusunoki in late 1966. Incidentally i also have Opera CDP 120 Linear player which shares the same Philip Dac TDA 1543 chip , its a non oversampling player & it has no op-amps in the analogue stage.
I liked the sound of this player when i was auditioning cd players. I think i could not get better option in the same budget !
I think the Dac in question is also a Chinese make .
Regards
RB9
reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
Audiozone/Audiosector DAC-1 is what I'm using right now. Here's a link
6moons audio reviews: AudioZone DAC Follow-Up
The topology of the dac has been modified since that review.
@RB9: The DAC I'm talking about is hand built in Canada. No relation to any chinese DACs.
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persiflage
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Heard an Audio Note (UK) DAC recently, which is also a very nice NOS implementation. Natural and non-fatiguing, loved it.
Not for imaging/ soundstaging freaks though.. and the treble can sound slightly rolled off. Then again, audio is all about trade-offs.
Not for imaging/ soundstaging freaks though.. and the treble can sound slightly rolled off. Then again, audio is all about trade-offs.
spirovious
Well-Known Member
Where can I get DAC in India,Mumbai?
DAC magic will be available in December end for 25k(in UK 16k)
DAC magic will be available in December end for 25k(in UK 16k)
reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
Here's a pic of my new NOS DAC built by Peter Daniel of audiosector.com. Its the most organic, non fatiguing sound I've ever heard out of a digital source. At the same time, it doesn't give up on detail in any manner either. Highly recommended. One would be hard pressed to find another digital source that comes close to it under a lac.
Simplicity at its best. There are hardly any parts in the DAC. One can count the number of parts on his/her fingertips. All caps one sees in that image are Black Gate NX - arguably *the best* audio caps ever made.
Simplicity at its best. There are hardly any parts in the DAC. One can count the number of parts on his/her fingertips. All caps one sees in that image are Black Gate NX - arguably *the best* audio caps ever made.
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Q: with a good DAC with optical/spdif inputs and ordinary DVD player will there be any issues with jitter from the poor transport of the dvd player?
I mean issues of a very subtle nature considering audiophile standards?
Request your expert opinions on this
TIA
I mean issues of a very subtle nature considering audiophile standards?
Request your expert opinions on this
TIA
reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
A good transport will obviously be noticeable from a bad one. However the difference is no way as significant as moving from the analog outs of a cheap source to a dedicated dac.
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Hi
Not by audiophile logic but by comman sense I am thinking hat it is better to go for a cd player -maybe used one .
Onida is average dvd player sourced from China.A average performer not even in league of Sony or Samsung. DVD ( I can confidently say that sice I was product manager for dvd in Onida) So quality of source is in question.
Dac will add additional complications additional cabling etc.
What I can suggest is decent cd players Like Cambridge Audio Or marantz.
In used market a lot of Sony CDP available - sometimes their high & meddle end series models with digital outs at good price. I am told that Sony , Philips & Marantz CDP are easy to repair and their Lences are easily available ( experts please shed some light!)
So my suggestion is OLD CDP with New lens + Dac if required
Hemant
Hemant
Not by audiophile logic but by comman sense I am thinking hat it is better to go for a cd player -maybe used one .
Onida is average dvd player sourced from China.A average performer not even in league of Sony or Samsung. DVD ( I can confidently say that sice I was product manager for dvd in Onida) So quality of source is in question.
Dac will add additional complications additional cabling etc.
What I can suggest is decent cd players Like Cambridge Audio Or marantz.
In used market a lot of Sony CDP available - sometimes their high & meddle end series models with digital outs at good price. I am told that Sony , Philips & Marantz CDP are easy to repair and their Lences are easily available ( experts please shed some light!)
So my suggestion is OLD CDP with New lens + Dac if required
Hemant
Hemant
Well it all comes down to how much one wants to spend. If you can swing it, go for a regular transport + a good DAC rather than spending 30k or 40K on a CDP. The first combo should outdo the CDP by a good margin. As ROC mentioned, you can scrimp on the transport if you like as the difference is small between transports unless the rest of your downstream components are high end.
The typical DAC in the bulk of CDPs (even good ones) have an op-amp, bad Power supply and regular components. There is far less that can go wrong in a DAC compared to a CDP/transport/lens, etc.
Using a separate DAC may not be such a big inconvinence, after all we are talking about one extra DAC cable and power supply, thats it.
cheers
The typical DAC in the bulk of CDPs (even good ones) have an op-amp, bad Power supply and regular components. There is far less that can go wrong in a DAC compared to a CDP/transport/lens, etc.
Using a separate DAC may not be such a big inconvinence, after all we are talking about one extra DAC cable and power supply, thats it.
cheers
reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
Out of the entry level players, the CA players have a genuine Philips CDM12 transport right from the 340C so I guess its a good starting point for a transport. An outboard DAC will almost always be better than an opamp output stage CD player.
I don't care much about disc spinners. I have an elcheapo sony dvd player for disc duties. For everything else, I use a computer transport with an EMU 1212M PCI sound card with claimed 50ps jitter figures.
I don't care much about disc spinners. I have an elcheapo sony dvd player for disc duties. For everything else, I use a computer transport with an EMU 1212M PCI sound card with claimed 50ps jitter figures.
For excellent sound that won't break the bank, the 5 Star Award Winning Wharfedale Diamond 12.1 Bookshelf Speakers is the one to consider!
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