Chennai HFV FM Meet up on Aug 15th 2023 at Ragupati Chandrasekaran's brilliant hybrid Home theater set up!

[fLUX]

Preamble

After creating an interest check as per mods of this forum, subsequently, Chennai AV enthusiasts WhatsApp group was formed recently with an intent to meet, share and experience this hobby. With a small group of 20 members, Aug. 15 was selected as the 1st meet to happen at Ragu’s house to experience his home cinema setup.

(Notes by Kannan)
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*AN INTRO:*

*_From a humble Soundbar to a Dedicated Home Theatre has been Ragu’s (@liverpool_for_life) passionate and dedicated journey, definitely tumultuous but at the same time purposeful and highly successful, over the past 8 years._*

_Link to thread of how he went about it:_

From a soundbar to an all-Seaton Atmos setup

As someone else said: It all started with a freaking soundbar! My first foray into (somewhat) hi-fi audio is documented here: https://www.hifivision.com/threads/medium-sized-living-room-to-do-or-not-to-do-5-1-ht-setup-that-is-the-question.56565/ Naturally, after the initial honeymoon...

www.hifivision.com

What makes this long journey exhilarating is that once he struck down on the *Seaton Brand Speakers* (essentially active) and realized their potential, they have been the end game around which he has worked and improved upon the acoustic pitfalls of the reasonably big sized room with professional intervention, and slowly but steadily, upgraded the rest of his equipment to almost reference level.

*He has finally conjured up a full-fledged 7.4.4 setup (All Seatons) (Left, Right, Center, 4 Surrounds, 4 subwoofers and 4 Atmos speakers) and has employed extensive acoustic treatment to the room to bring it up to reference playback level.*

*_A very special mention goes to his family who have been his biggest motivators in this monumental journey of his.
*_Mark Seaton (the owner of Seaton Sound, USA), Harwin of Volumate (Chennai), Ankur Bhatt (Sound Sense), Roshan(Orange Pale Audio) and some others have been his source of help, advice, critics and service providers in this journey.

_His current list of equipment is as follows:_
*Main Speakers:*
Seaton Catalyst-8C actives (Left, Right and Center channels). Tri-amped with two 8-inch woofers and a coaxial 8-inch midrange and 1 inch tweeter. *Capable of 1000 watt continues power per speaker.*
*Surround Speakers:*
Pair of active, bi-amplified Seaton Sparks as rear surrounds
Pair of 6.5 coaxial Seaton passive speakers as side surrounds adjacent to the seating position
*Subwoofers:*
Pair of Seaton Submersives - Dual 15-inch active subwoofers in the front between the left and right speakers. *Capable of 6000-watt.*
Pair of active 12-inch JS-12 Seaton subwoofers close to ceiling in the rear end of the room. *Capable of 700-watt continuous power.*
*Atmos:*
Pair of 6.5inch coaxial Seaton passive speakers on the ceiling between the mains and seating position.
Pair of 6.5inch coaxial Seaton passive speakers on the ceiling behind the seating position
*Amplifier Stage:*
Two numbers Powersoft Quattracanoli 1204 amplifiers (400-watt continuous power per channel) to power the pair of the passive surrounds and the two pairs of Atmos.
*:Source*
Apple TV
*Cinema Processor:*
Trinnov Altitude 16 – Capable of discrete 20-channel of processing with all audio and video codec support. (Upgraded from Anthem)
*Video Processor:*
madVR Envy Extreme Mk1: An exceptional video processor and enhancer
*Projector:*
JVC NX7 (Upgraded from Epson)
*Screen:*
THX Certified Stewart Luxus 130 G4:, Size: 150 inch
miniDSP 2x4 HD for subwoofer integration
*Cables:*
Belden 8477 (12 awg) for the passive speakers and Canare 4e6s (star quad) for all signals.
*Power Section:*
FURMAN PL-PRO DM CE 16A Power Conditioner for the front stage.
A pair of FURMAN PL-8C E 10A Power Conditioner for everything else.
APC SRV2KL-IN Online UPS for JVC, Trinnov, madVR Envy and the Minidsp for controlled shutdown in case of power outage.
*Remote Commander:*
Logitech Harmony Remote with a Hub.

*_Though Ragu’s setup is 7.4.4 as I mentioned earlier, we could experience 5.2.4 only as two subwoofers and two surrounds were not functional. It unluckily for us enthusiasts, included the two behemoth Seaten Submersives (the dual 15-inch subwoofers that are part of the front stage and the foundation for bass responce)._*


So just a few minutes before the auditions, Ragu with the kind assistance of Harwin had to do a quick calibration to integrate the setup with the two 12inch rear subwoofers and then run a full calibration for the setup with Trinnov, one for music and another for movies Due to paucity of time, the tuning could only be done for one center listening position.

The experience yesterday was tatamount to how critical room treatment is when it comes to setting up a serious home theater. Critical both from the aspect of video as well as the accompanying multi-channel sound. With room out of the equation, the upgrades then start to show their value and importance.

The sample video clip shown was "Ford vs Ferrari" which has such effects that even drag races, door closing, pit conversations at the backdrop of action low frequency sequences were crystal clear and a forward thrust while door closing or sudden bursts of jump effects were felt like sonic 3D. The tailor made seating arrangement with cusion is very comfy and can please a celebrity guest.

Ragu has done something incredible in a hybrid space that is neither a living room nor an acoustically-treated dedicated room. That is our overall encapsulation over his setup.

Participants were
1) Host Ragupati Chandrasekaran @liverpool_for_life
2) Kannan Annanagar @Kannan
3) Harwin (Volumate)
4) Sivakumar @SiR
5) Sathish Chandran @sathtom
6)Satish Kumar @Sai_Satish
7) Dinakaran @rainbowsong2000
8) Arasu @ttarasu
9) Raghavan @cooltoad
10) Kannan Srinivasan @Telekan
11) Alfahath @Alfahath
12) Vimal @VSTEREO
13) Senthilnathan @pksnathan
14) Mano Fernando @manofernando
15) Venkataraghavan @dvraghavan
16) Vinod Gopal @Donivlapog
17) Srinivasan @srinisundar
18) Rajiv @Rajiv
19) Rajagopal @rajagopal_j
20) SenthilKumaran @sunshine_vsk

Lovely setup @liverpool_for_life , had the pleasure of chatting with Raghu for advise on treatment and passion was very audible in the call and is equally visible in his room .

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Thank you to everyone that made it to the meetup on Tuesday. I had a wonderful time doing this, even if the preparations were disrupted by the non-availability of the Submersives. Learnt a few things that will help things be better the next time around.

Massive props to Harwin from Volumate for his help in getting things set up after it became clear that the Submersives wouldn't be available (massive bummer). Could not have done this without his help.

Feeling pretty humbled by the comments so far and will respond in due course. I'll cherish the memories of this get-together for life.

Looking forward to seeing everyone at the next meetup, which I'm sure @Donivlapog is already thinking about.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

So just a few minutes before the auditions, Ragu with the kind assistance of Harwin had to do a quick calibration to integrate the setup with the two 12inch rear subwoofers and then run a full calibration for the setup with Trinnov, one for music and another for movies Due to paucity of time, the tuning could only be done for one center listening position.

That was completely my fault, though. Harwin, as ever, was phenomenally helpful. And my apologies to everyone who attended that day that the preparation in this regard wasn't better.

The experience yesterday was tatamount to how critical room treatment is when it comes to setting up a serious home theater. Critical both from the aspect of video as well as the accompanying multi-channel sound. With room out of the equation, the upgrades then start to show their value and importance.

@Kannan has seen this space and setup evolve over time, which explains the above comment. I have long felt that my room was the biggest limiting factor, and while things aren't perfect now, I'm fairly close to the finish line in terms of passive room treatment.

The tailor made seating arrangement with cusion is very comfy and can please a celebrity guest.

Heh. It is very comfy, agreed. My afternoon naps are in them and there are nights when my son gently nudges me to go sleep in the bedroom as I doze off listening to RJ Toshila's show (9PM onwards) on FM106.4. The vendor is Karlsson Leather.

Ragu has done something incredible in a hybrid space that is neither a living room nor an acoustically-treated dedicated room.

Thank you. As time progressed (I started with a 5.1 setup in September 2016), I did want to try to push the envelope on what's possible in a non-dedicated room. Succeeded in a few aspects, not so much in others. Mirroring life.

HST, incredible (or not) or went overboard or a bit of both is a matter of perspective. My video dealer believes that I'm crazy to put all of this equipment in a non-dedicated room. And, setting performance aside, he says that I've ended up with a room that's neither a proper HT nor a living room. I'm inclined to agree with him, even if I'd be unwilling to tear it all down now in the hypothetical scenario that someone offers me all of my money back to do so.

 

[drkrack]

Thanks a lot for a Very Detailed Write Up @Donivlapog , wish you should be the part of Every Such Meetups in Future!

@liverpool_for_life Congratulations for a Great Setup, I'm Partially aware of Your Painstaking journey with Passive Room Treatment, Nice to see that it has indeed yielded great results. A well planned pre power can provide a superb unparalleled cinematic experience.
I'm quite unaware of Seaton Speakers, can you please elaborate on how did you zeroed on this brand in particular and what other brands you considered? Do we have Indian dealer for Seaton Speakers?

Would love to visit your place as per your convenience in my next Bengaluru visit planned in the first weekend of September.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Would love to visit your place as per your convenience in my next Bengaluru visit planned in the first weekend of September.

The speakers I have from Mark are pretty capable from the standpoint of dynamics, but to be able to hear them from Chennai in Bengaluru is pushing things a bit too far. The next time you're in Chennai though, you're very welcome to visit.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

[...] one key difference i felt was the surrounds and atmos channels...

Really, really glad you picked up on this. Anecdotal evidence suggests that, for the most part, the surrounds and Atmos speakers generally get pretty short shrift when it comes to HT systems i.e. spend your money on LCR and subs. Not much thought is given as to whether the surrounds and Atmos speakers can keep up with the rest of the system, both from the perspective of SQ and dynamic capability.

The surrounds and Atmos speakers aren't there to merely provide ambience. If they can't keep up with the mains and subs (and start to compress when you push the volume levels up), what you'll be left with, worst case, is a soundstage that feels constricted to the front. As the capabilities of these speakers goes up, the subjective feeling of envelopment ought to go up.

it sounded like towers were playing in Surrounds & Atmos channels, so immersive and wide dispersion...

Towers is quite the description, but it does sound like the goal of getting the surrounds and Atmos speakers to at least not be out of place with respect to the rest of the system has been achieved. The dispersion spec for these speakers is 90 degrees (and knowing Mark's emphasis on uniformity of off-axis response in all of his speaker designs, these will be truly be wide dispersion), with "usable" dispersion of 110 degrees (in Mark's words, which I assume to mean still enough SPL to be considered useful beyond 90 and until 110).

Since Sunday night banging my head to know if it's just the Seaton passive speakers

Here's a review of these speakers from when Mark exhibited them at AXPONA in 2018: https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/axpona-2018-official-show-report.2658/#post-22785

The part about the crossover design from that post:

To get this great sound, it is not as simple as building a box and throwing a FaitalPro coaxial driver in it. Mark spent a great deal of time on the crossover and showed me the fruits of his labor. [...] That looks like about 13 elements total for a 2-way in-wall speaker with top quality parts consisting of all air-core inductors, large ceramic wire wound resistors, and high quality film capacitors. It is obvious that careful attention was paid to the layout of the inductors to reduce coupling. This is a very good crossover, more similar to what we see in speakers costing many times more.

(emphasis supplied)

Pics of the crossover: https://seatonsound.net/ember-xo-1/

That's the part pertaining to sound quality.

Dynamic capability is another.

Amplifier power required calculator: https://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators#amp_power_required

The furthest speakers, of this lot, from the MLP are the overheads, roughly 10 feet away. Using the calculator above and plugging in the 92 dB sensitivity of the Embers, it can be seen that, to have around 2 dB of headroom after hitting reference levels (105 dB), the speakers need to be supplied with 294 watts. The Powersoft amps can provide up to 300 watts/channel. So, reference levels for the surrounds and Atmos speakers with a bit of headroom is possible.

or the Trinnov or both these combo showcased this Magic... @liverpool_for_life would be the best person to clarify this as he has used these Seaton's with his Anthem Pre...

With the caveat that my auditory memory is highly likely fallible, the dynamic capability of the Embers wasn't affected by the choice of pre-pro. However, the amount of detail with the Trinnov in the chain as opposed to the Anthem is a no-contest. And that's with no room correction in the mix.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Stereo:

[...]Sound signature is slighly more bright as these are originally setup for HT experience.

IIRC, Mark is on record stating that the voicing of the Catalysts is on the warm side of neutral. If your perception was that it was bright, then it points to a issue with the room and/setup. I made a pretty big mistake by not limiting the Trinnov correction to around 200 Hz. This way, folks would've had a chance to hear the original (for lack of a better word) mid-range and highs of the Catalysts.

Full-range correction based on one position, without the underlying knowledge of what the anechoic measurements are, is not a recipe for good sound.

HT:
We watched "Ford vs Ferrari" & "Ready Player One" movie scenes.
The Test drive & Plane landing scenes of "Ford & Ferrari" and King Kong chasing scene in "Ready Player One" were too Immersive and Breathtaking... Shockwave effects of subwoofers were very intense and I can't imagine watching a Horror Movie in this setup...

Heh. As a last step, I do plan to re-treat the ceiling in the area around the overheads. Hard as it may be to believe, the plane landing scene from Ford vs Ferrari definitely sounded thin because of a lack of mid-bass (I've heard it with treatment around the overheads).

PERSEVERANCE is the one word that fits Ragu (@liverpool_for_life) well. It embodies what he has slowly but steadily managed to achieve.

Appreciate that. I've been guilty of being too patient wrt a couple of things, but overall, it has been alright.

For me, the biggest leap from 2019 to 2023 has been the visuals.

Agreed, but the video was starting off from a lower base, both in terms of the quality of the equipment and the quality of the room.

Still there is scope for improvement by using a dark carpet on the light-coloured floor.

Maintenance of the carpet that I had earlier was a nightmare and I finally gave up. HST, as things are currently, I feel like I'm leaving too much on the table wrt video performance (vs potential). My room is not worthy of the video equipment in it.

The system was played continuously at reference level and not once did it shudder.

TBF, I don't know whether it was reference level or not at the levels we did playback at. Never did check SPL levels after calibration to see what MV on the Trinnov corresponded to reference.

Knowing what the dual 15-inch can do, I could also visualize what was missing from the bass department (lots of body to the overall presentation).

At a minimum. That punch to the chest in intense scenes and the visceral feeling that ULF can provide was missing because of the holes in the FR that not having the Submersives contributed to.

The details had improved further by a big margin, the center channel was a revelation this time, there was cogency even in very dense scenes.

Glad to hear that. An important criteria to be met for a well-setup HT is a well-integrated center that has the right tonal balance, doesn't give up on any of the impact, retains details and is still intelligible for dialogue when there's chaos all-round. So, it's nice to see improvement in that regard.

Once the dual subs are in with the back surrounds and with more accurate calibration the brightness that was experienced should go away.

I should certainly hope so. Like I said before, I suspect that a big contributor to the brightness, especially if it was from the front stage, was likely down to my gross negligence in not limiting the Trinnov automatic correction to 200 Hz and below.

Seeing as the seats weren't reclined, the side surrounds should definitely have been down a dB or three, compared to the rest of the speakers. My apologies to Sathish and Arasu (IIRC) who bore the brunt of that, as they were sitting in the extreme right and left seats.

The other huge improvement I observed was in simultaneous panning and localised playback. In some scenes where there was say simultaneous panning from the front to rear surround and localised sounds to that surround as well, it was presented very well, the timing was accurate to match with the visuals. It speaks high of the acoustic treatment, especially to reflections.

Interesting. I had no time to listen after calibration that day, so I look forward to hearing this once I'm back in town. There's a decent chance that this has to do with the Trinnov vs the Anthem as the room treatment to handle reflections hasn't changed since the last time you heard the setup.

Overall, a remarkable and admirable achievement by ( @liverpool_for_life ) that defines a hallmark of patience and belief in the equipment.

Thank you, but there wasn't much choice, was there?

Apart, it was nice to meet so all the members with whom I had been exchanging notes on WhatsApp.
Hoping to enjoy more such meets.

Likewise.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

I'm quite unaware of Seaton Speakers, can you please elaborate on how did you zeroed on this brand in particular and what other brands you considered?

Will do, in a bit.

Do we have Indian dealer for Seaton Speakers?

Spoke with Mark yesterday and he said that AV Nirvana was the Indian distributor.