sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
Hi
I am fixated on the Tannoy Xtf8s, and am planning on getting an audition in Mumbai later this month. I have also been agonizing over how it will sound with my amplifier and the only proper way to find out seems to be lug 12kg over to the audition. (I would be playing them in a room with dimensions similar to yours - ~23 x 11 - excepting that it is not a audio only room)
Why the doubt whether my pre- power is the best for this speaker.
Exhibit A
The impedance varies widely from about 3 ohm to nearly 50. From my reading "The widely-swinging impedance means tube amps will sound significantly different than solid state amps"
In contrast another speaker (ATC SCM-11) I am looking at has something like this for a impedance graph
I am not technically qualified on matters electric or electronic and am no t going to get all offended if if you were to honestly tell that I've served a double helping of farmyard manure below. (I'd ofc benefit from knowing why)
I've read that the highs say Bianca Castafiore hitting a high and then holding it for a length of time presents a far more difficult load to an amplifier than something at a head bangers ball.
And that simplistically tubes are voltage sources while SS are current sources. Voltage sources increase their power as the load impedance drops - ideally double as the load halves, while current sources maintain the same power, or close to it, regardless of the load impedance.
For something like the XTF8 we would need more current at lower frequencies and so tubes would be a better suited. So my question is it worth considering a SS power amp - in my case the Schiit Vidar rated at 100W RMS pc into 8 ohm and 200W RMS pc into 4 ohm for stereo - for the Tannoy's which would better with a current source ?
somestuff I read http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php (and do not claim to have properly understood)
ciao
gr
Only impedance graphs should not be read in isolation, the corresponding phase angle also is equally important. The phase angle tell if the load to the amplifier is inductive, capacitive or resistive. A + angle implies inductive, - angle indicate capacitive and at zero deg pure resistive load.
sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
.
Thank you.
From the graphs posted (above) the phase angle for the XTF-8 is relatively flat while the SCM-11 (dotted line in the second graph) shows that it behaves as both an inductive and capactive load.
Which kind of amp would be suited to pure resistive (XTF-8 case) or the mixed (inductive/ capacitive SCM-11 case) speakers (If that my reading of the graphs are correct)
ciao
gr
i think tube amp prefer more of a stable resistive load with minimum phase changes from inductive to capacitive. If the phase angle changes too much high current amplifiers are suitable to provide the power for the lower impedance. Also if the phase angle is too capacitive (say around 60 deg) and the impedance is also low say 2 ohms, then it will be a difficult load for the amplifier to drive and could result in a potential short ckt. But at the same time if the phase angle is zero deg (pure resistive) and the impedance is 2 ohms, the amplifier will provide excellent dynamics and sweet sound in a high current amplifier.
sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
Thanks very much. So for the XTF-8 case therefore might benefit from a well designed tube amp, while a good SS power- is likely more suited to the requirements of the SCM11 case of load.
@celester340 any chance you could try one of each tubes/ SS before you decide ?
ciao
gr
sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
Another review saying something similar
http://www.navratilaudio.cz/pr_tannoy/Test%20Tannoy%20Revolution%20XT8F%20-%204%20str%E1nky.pdf
(see the section at the very end of the article)
"the bass unit has a d.c.r of just 2.7 ohms - the lowest we have ever measured. Potentially it will draw heavy current form an amplifier but with such high sensitivity volumes will be kept low and power drain limited. amplifiers of 40w or so will be fine and valve amps with 4 ohm taps will suit"
edit: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...bable-start-up.701900/page-1509#post-13617467
SS Vidar in monobloc. SS will work well too, according to that guy yes?
ciao
gr
http://www.navratilaudio.cz/pr_tannoy/Test%20Tannoy%20Revolution%20XT8F%20-%204%20str%E1nky.pdf
(see the section at the very end of the article)
"the bass unit has a d.c.r of just 2.7 ohms - the lowest we have ever measured. Potentially it will draw heavy current form an amplifier but with such high sensitivity volumes will be kept low and power drain limited. amplifiers of 40w or so will be fine and valve amps with 4 ohm taps will suit"
edit: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...bable-start-up.701900/page-1509#post-13617467
SS Vidar in monobloc. SS will work well too, according to that guy yes?
ciao
gr
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 38504
Guest
Thanks so what tube amp do u recommend in this budget I have cause I haven't seen anything in tubes.
M
mpw
Guest
Jolida is one brand..in this budget..
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BTW - here are a few words of wisdom from the Naim forum today.. the OP is hunting for speakers in excess of USD 50000
In my decades of experience working with customers, many people in the high end audio market; both dealers and customers alike- are often predisposed to the allure of shortcuts. This is understandable, and we don't need to contemplate conspiracy theories in order to note this tendency. When listeners like Ron, who is one of the most experienced Naim fans in the US, put in enough time, enough thought, and enough money into their system's, at some point, many from this elite group of committed long term fans reach beyond the "folk wisdom" of the Linn/Naim cult of thinking that was formulated in the 70's and early 80's. When they do, they often discover that really good system set up, or really good clean AC power, including in some cases power conditioners, or superb cables, or audio grade racks, or room acoustics etc. really matter. In reality they had always mattered, but many of these things were somewhat ignored or even outright dismissed by the key tenants of the old Flat earth "wisdom".
It is very easy to endorse Ron's experience and his willingness to share his hard earned wisdom about careful system set up.
The challenge is that many Naim fans have probably not investigated the potential benefits of reference class speakers which they might come to love out of the misunderstanding that is so widespread in high end audio as to have become part of the received folk wisdom. The idea I am referring to is this: if you make an upgrade ahead of your speakers and can hear a difference through them, that your speakers are fully up to your system's potential. In practice this is sometimes the case, but often it is not.
The shortcut version of the recognition that speakers probably matter more than anything else in the system is to assume that you just need to buy fancy speakers to gain access to a fancy system. As many Naim fans can attest from their own experience, if your speakers are "good enough" they can foster a great experience with excellent partnering equipment, well set up, etc. However, there are things that the best reference class speakers can do that many medium priced or inexpensive speakers simply can't. Try to do what Skip reported in his post. Make time to hear well set up speakers and better yet, full systems, so you can judge for yourself where on this wide continuum you fall. Some will favor speakers over the other components. Some will favor a great source. Some will favor great amplification. In the very best systems, there are no weak links, but they may not require massively expensive products. The key thing I have found is to try to avoid the temptation of a quick fix or a shortcut. I don't believe there are any real substitutes for careful system design and great set up no matter which components you come to embrace.
Good listening,
Bruce
================================================================================
========================================================================================0
BTW - here are a few words of wisdom from the Naim forum today.. the OP is hunting for speakers in excess of USD 50000
In my decades of experience working with customers, many people in the high end audio market; both dealers and customers alike- are often predisposed to the allure of shortcuts. This is understandable, and we don't need to contemplate conspiracy theories in order to note this tendency. When listeners like Ron, who is one of the most experienced Naim fans in the US, put in enough time, enough thought, and enough money into their system's, at some point, many from this elite group of committed long term fans reach beyond the "folk wisdom" of the Linn/Naim cult of thinking that was formulated in the 70's and early 80's. When they do, they often discover that really good system set up, or really good clean AC power, including in some cases power conditioners, or superb cables, or audio grade racks, or room acoustics etc. really matter. In reality they had always mattered, but many of these things were somewhat ignored or even outright dismissed by the key tenants of the old Flat earth "wisdom".
It is very easy to endorse Ron's experience and his willingness to share his hard earned wisdom about careful system set up.
The challenge is that many Naim fans have probably not investigated the potential benefits of reference class speakers which they might come to love out of the misunderstanding that is so widespread in high end audio as to have become part of the received folk wisdom. The idea I am referring to is this: if you make an upgrade ahead of your speakers and can hear a difference through them, that your speakers are fully up to your system's potential. In practice this is sometimes the case, but often it is not.
The shortcut version of the recognition that speakers probably matter more than anything else in the system is to assume that you just need to buy fancy speakers to gain access to a fancy system. As many Naim fans can attest from their own experience, if your speakers are "good enough" they can foster a great experience with excellent partnering equipment, well set up, etc. However, there are things that the best reference class speakers can do that many medium priced or inexpensive speakers simply can't. Try to do what Skip reported in his post. Make time to hear well set up speakers and better yet, full systems, so you can judge for yourself where on this wide continuum you fall. Some will favor speakers over the other components. Some will favor a great source. Some will favor great amplification. In the very best systems, there are no weak links, but they may not require massively expensive products. The key thing I have found is to try to avoid the temptation of a quick fix or a shortcut. I don't believe there are any real substitutes for careful system design and great set up no matter which components you come to embrace.
Good listening,
Bruce
================================================================================
sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
Hi
I don't know really, I have not looked in that direction. IAC while I am looking at the xtf8 I also have to look at my SS pre- power. I have provisionally worked out that if I can get over the amplifier suitability hill, the rest is downslope and tailwinds and unicorns dancing on rainbows. The only way to figure it out seems to be (okay is) to audition. Chennai is the perfect distance for easy overnight travel by train (and with brownie points for visiting my parents) but Cressida did (does ?) not have a pair available for audition, so looking at Mumbai. Will update.
Ciao
GR
D
Deleted member 38504
Guest
hifitoaster
Well-Known Member
I will say you wont regret the 100A decision over 50A. I dont believe in the just enough theory any day. If affordable, always higher wattage is better in my experience.New toy purchased. Will go straight to Madras. Thanks for all of you who helped and contributed in my decision
More dynamics, more depth, more imaging .. and so on at the same loudness level. its more of a quality improvement over loudness improvement anyway.
Yes better headroom is always a boon, especially if you listen in lower volumes the dynamics are much better than just adequate amp. Also if you were to upgrade to less sensitive speakers later, there's no need to upgrade the amplifier.
Congratulations @celester340.
D
Deleted member 38504
Guest
Thanks for the words of encouragement gents! Appreciated!
elangoas
Well-Known Member
New toy purchased. Will go straight to Madras. Thanks for all of you who helped and contributed in my decision
Congratulations!
D
Deleted member 38504
Guest
Congrats .. You defnetly seem to be collecting amplifiers..
Haha no man! I only have two amps, the Marantz in the HT room and now the creek for the stereo setup lol
heliumflight
Well-Known Member
@celester340 congrats i knew it all through... You were sold on Creek 100A. Enjoy!
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