Difference between Distance & Level adjustment in AVR

[pupupuchi28]

I have been using the Yamaha RX V371 for almost three months now and have played with all the configuration option. But I fail to understand one thing. What is the difference between adjusting 'Distance' of a speaker (in the AVR setting) when compared to the 'Level' (adjustment in AVR) of individual speakers. To me both give the same result, change in volume.

However I noticed the 'throw' of the sound changes on adjusting the distance, compared to the volume level when 'Level' is adjusted. This may be my own perception. But thats precisely what the question is.

What is the difference guys?

I'm looking for a 'technically logical answer' rather than a 'mass market generic answer'.

 

[santhosh]

Let me try to explain in the way I have understood it.

When we run Audyssey or similar, the AVR configures itself automatically. It identifies automatically the speaker size and distance between each speaker and listening/viewing position. The throw is determined automatically as part of this process.

We then watch a test video and see if it is set to our liking. If we want more volume on the centre channel (vocals) or surround speakers, we will need to increase the level on it. If we max out on the level try over-riding the AVR's auto config by increasing the distance so that the throw is adjusted. If this does not work, try to physically move the speaker closer to the listening position. At this stage, consider a speaker/AVR upgrade or both.

Hope this helps.




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[pupupuchi28]

Let me try to explain in the way I have understood it.

When we run Audyssey or similar, the AVR configures itself automatically. It identifies automatically the speaker size and distance between each speaker and listening/viewing position. The throw is determined automatically as part of this process.

We then watch a test video and see if it is set to our liking. If we want more volume on the centre channel (vocals) or surround speakers, we will need to increase the level on it. If we max out on the level try over-riding the AVR's auto config by increasing the distance so that the throw is adjusted. If this does not work, try to physically move the speaker closer to the listening position. At this stage, consider a speaker/AVR upgrade or both.

Hope this helps.




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So in short 'Distance' adjusts the 'throw' where as 'Level' adjusts only the volume @ a given 'throw'?

The max volume I could crank was till -8 dbl (reference of -65 dbl to 16 dbl, on Floorstands only), before my ears shouted 'What the f**k are you trying to do', so I'm not falling into the trap of upgrade

 

[Subcenter2009]

Dear PupuPuchi,

I will tell you the easiest and most logical method I used to setup my HT system.

I have an ancient Yamaha RX-V 450 with Wharfedale Zaldek L/R/C with Bose 161 surrounds, 2 Torvin Surr backs and Wharfedale SW-150 subwoofer in front with Reginald dual 8" 2 channel active sub at the back of the room.

Nobody has posted this exact method on this forum I think.

The members may be zealously guarding the knowhow as for those in the industry, it is their livelyhood... I just want to help out.

It will surely make budget systems sound impressive if done right.

U can do it using just what you have at hand.

The distance setting in an AVR is nothing but the DELAY adjustment method.

Using pink noise generated using either a sampling CD or your AVR's inbuilt tone, keeping the AVR on all channels stereo mode, First play the Center channel and the Front L/R channels together and sitting in your listening position, set the distance(Delay) till peak loudness is reached. Other channels should be muted. U can use a tone between 350Hz and 1KHz if you are using a calibration CD.

Then,Minimise the Center volume and switch on first the Left surround and L/R speakers and listen for peak volume.. then, the Right surround and left/right speakers and adjust for peak volume, after muting the other channels.

Then do the same to the back channels if any.

This ensures that the speakers are firing in Phase.

While adjusting the subwoofer levels, most AVRs play low bass notes. You should look for peak level from the Front L/R and sub while played together with other channels muted. You may have to increase the overall volume levels while adjusting this as most humans can't hear most of the sound generated.

U can start with the sub at 12 'o' clock ie, at half volume.

After ensuring all the speakers are in phase, U may adjust the individual volume levels of each channel at a time as required.

Start with the same levels on all channels and listen for apparent loudness then do the fine tuning.

A SPL meter will be helpful though not a must for the trained ear.. Use the SPL meter while seated in your favorite listening position.

Note that this method is cumbersome and requires respective adjustment of each speaker seperately while muting other channels.. Hence a lot of patience.

Hope this is helpful..

Yours,

Subcenter 2009.

The end is rewarding indeed.:clapping::yahoo:

 

[koushik]

Exactly, its the delay adjustment. As generally we are close to the rear speakers so the sound from rear speakers reach us quicker than front and centre. For this reason we may hear dual sound if time gap crosses threshold time of hearing. Hence the adjustment.

 

[pupupuchi28]

So if its the 'Delay' adjustment then cranking it up to the fullest and adjusting the 'Level' will not help, in a 5.1/7.1 set-up. The 'Phase' will be lost. The AVR would assume all the speakers are at their max distance and throw the sound simultaneously. Instead we will have to tune the 'Distance' correctly and set the 'Level' as per our preference ???

BTW, once I had heard a Sony AVR at my Friends place, which had time adjustments in mil secs, for individual speakers. I guess these two things are the same. But, if the AVR has a 'Distance' setting, probably it will use a logic to convert it into time 'Delay' ???

So, in a typical stereo set-up (with AVR), setting the distance to the max is a good option, since anyway there are not many speakers to be synchronised ??? This will also allow to keep the 'Level' low > low power from AVR > less heat ???

 

[koushik]

Not sure about keeping distance for stereo speakers to max. Let the experts put some light on this.

 

[Subcenter2009]

Not sure about keeping distance for stereo speakers to max. Let the experts put some on this.

Hi.
If your AVR allows seperate calibration for either left or right speaker, then increase/decrease any 1 distance until u get peak volume.

In a 2.1 setup, try comparing each of the 2 speakers 1 by 1 to the subwoofer and adjust the distance relative to the subwoofer. See if that solves the problem.

Yours,
Subcenter2009

 

[sound1]

So, in a typical stereo set-up (with AVR), setting the distance to the max is a good option, since anyway there are not many speakers to be synchronised ??? This will also allow to keep the 'Level' low > low power from AVR > less heat ???

I think if you set the distance equal for the fronts, you should get a perfect balanced imaging (assuming identical speakers). If you have a sub and have bass timing issues, then you might try setting greater distance for it. Since subs tend to be slower than the speakers, you want the sound to arrive earlier than the fronts. AVR will do the timing correction for the additional distance. I got superb results when I put 64 feet for my sub, and 7 feet each for the fronts. Of course YMMV.

Regarding power and heat, I don't think it will make any difference because AVR is not varying it's power output based on distance. It will only delay the signal to your speakers based on the distance.

I might be wrong here, experts please feel free to correct me.

 

[pupupuchi28]

"Regarding power and heat, I don't think it will make any difference because AVR is not varying it's power output based on distance. It will only delay the signal to your speakers based on the distance." - To my ears, the 'Distance' setting is directly proportional to the volume from the AVR. If it was just a matter of 'Delay' then the volume shouldn't have changed at different 'Distance' points, rather there should have been timing difference in the sound coming from left and right channels (in a stereo setup from AVR).

 

[sound1]

Are you saying that, a distance value of say 10ft/10ft sounds louder than 20ft/20ft???

If that is the case, LEVEL and DISTANCE connections in one of our AVRs is swapped :lol: (btw, I use Yamaha too)

 

[pupupuchi28]

"Are you saying that, a distance value of say 10ft/10ft sounds louder than 20ft/20ft???" Distance value of 20 ft is louder than 10 ft.

 

[Moviela]

Distance is delay. Delay is measured in milliseconds (time) and distance is measured in meters. For Yamaha to use distance assumes that sound travels at the same speed. The speed of sound varies with the temperature of the air. In a small home theater the difference between extreme temperatures, say 0 to 40 is not consequential. The time for the sound to reach the listener from the various emitters is, and that is what the distance setting is used for. The current crop of Yamaha receivers with the "auto" setup microphone does a very credible job of setting the gains and distance correctly. Much better than a casual user can do on their own.

 

[pupupuchi28]

I'm still lost on this. Delay is measured in unit of time for a 'particular distance unit' (for e.x 1 milsec over 2 mtrs, 2 milsec over 2 mtrs, the first one should be quicker). So ideally there should not be any change in volume on adjusting the 'Distance'. The only difference one should feel is the timing of the sound reaching the eardrums.

Last night I spent another hour to inspect this and realised that the volume increases till a particular 'Distance' (from 2ft to 11 ft) beyond which (11.5ft to 80ft) I can clearly hear the 'Delay' effect pitching in.

MODS: Your understanding on this?

 

[Ajay Kamath]

So, in a typical stereo set-up (with AVR), setting the distance to the max is a good option, since anyway there are not many speakers to be synchronised ??? This will also allow to keep the 'Level' low > low power from AVR > less heat ???

Distance is delay. Channel level adjusts how loud a speaker will play.

If you set any speaker to the greatest distance setting, you are actually setting no delay on those channels. So, in a stereo setup the sound will be exactly identical at 0m distance or 20m distance, since delay is only applied to channels that are closer to the listening position.

 

[anm]

hmm distance is delay may not be correct.
With increase in distance, the SPL falls in inverse proportion of distance. Also the sound reaches a little late.
So if I increase distance of one speaker, the AVR "should" compensate both delay, and drop in SPL due to the distance.
But this is what appears logical to me. How it is actually implemented in AVRs is not what I know.

So according to me, distance should change both timing and level.
Level should only change level. This level increase probably helps in integrating mix/ match speakers, or level mismatch due to difference in individual drivers.

 

[btcochin]

hmm distance is delay may not be correct.
With increase in distance, the SPL falls in inverse proportion of distance. Also the sound reaches a little late.
So if I increase distance of one speaker, the AVR "should" compensate both delay, and drop in SPL due to the distance.
But this is what appears logical to me. How it is actually implemented in AVRs is not what I know.

So according to me, distance should change both timing and level.
Level should only change level. This level increase probably helps in integrating mix/ match speakers, or level mismatch due to difference in individual drivers.

This comment seems to be more logical than others, for a common man like me.
More distance - More throw of sound

 

[santhosh]

We are back where we started .

I am about to build a horn speaker and have been reading about time-alignment, phase and throw of different drivers in the same cabinet. Throw is a function of time and distance.


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[anm]

This comment seems to be more logical than others, for a common man like me.
More distance - More throw of sound

I am a common man like you are only a little addicted to this forum for many years now

 

[pupupuchi28]

I love this forum for the information it stores and shares. Thank you all. Hopefully this thread will serve another naive like me