Discussion on Vinyl and digital

[venkatcr]

Usual stereo mastering is for an image to be formed in front of the speaker and my guess is if it is forming behind the head then either the speakers are wired out of phase where the soundstage can be pretty weird and seem like coming from inside the head Or there is some rear wall reflections forming an image.

Just goes to show that you really have not heard a good system playing in a room that has been treated well. I can assure you that there were zero reflections from any of the walls. The rear of the auditioning seat was covered with thick curtains. That is all. How can they reflect anything.

Good stereo audio systems can go to the extent of delivering near 3D sound. Even my relatively inexpensive system projects sound up to level with my ears when I sit some 8-10 feet away from the speakers. I have 1/3rd sound absorbers on the side walls. That is all. Again, the rear of my couch is just curtains and a open window. In addition to that, sometimes, my system positions sound far below the speakers. In literally every song, I can hear and perceive depth and separation between vocal and instruments. In a song from the Tamil movie 'Allay Payudhe', I know exactly where and when the temple bells will ring. I have experienced these and written about them innumerable times on this forum.

Wired out of phase? My god! This is what I call coming to wild conclusions in a hurry.

Cheers.

This is interesting. I’ve heard quite high end vinyl setup ........

I’m interested to learn what was your setup in this case including source and source media.

Please search for my article/review on Audire Systems that I wrote a few years ago. It is there.

many digitally mastered albums still sound better on LPs due to compression methods used on the retail master for digital. Many audiophiles in the west buy LPs of pop music only due to this problem. Adele is a good example of how bad the digital version sounds.

It is your belief that LPs sound better. I respect that.

Allow others to believe in and enjoy what they think is right. Knowingly or unknowingly you yourself are disparaging digital systems for compression. As I have mentioned before (and you can look up the net), the compression in LPs is far worse. Both the dynamic range and lower and higher frequencies are cut off. This sounds pleasant to your and other's ears. I have no issues with that.

I enjoy the full bandwidth of a digital copy DACed well and played through well engineered pre-and power amplifiers. I like that I get the same sound irrespective of how many times I play it without the fear of any any hiss or skipping. It also allows me to experiment with electronics and speakers to eke out that little extra knowing my source is one 100% the same. Dynamics, frequencies, and gain amplitude never change.

It gives me great pleasure to hear the same sound at the same place in the soundstage where I know it will happen every time. That is how I enjoy music. Dont you think I should be allowed to do with the belief that my system is good? Not that I need any assurance from anyone. I have researched the technologies behind analog and digital system for over 5 years, and I have done enough auditioning including of very expensive systems. I know what is good.

And I am certainly not going to be bothered by a few bad apples. Those are there in every field.

And yes, someone mentioned that we seem to lost the original plot in this thread. All I can say is that a hard disk specially made for music and all the arguments in it's favor is so laughable that it is not even worth discussing. I certainly have no intention of getting into any discussion on that. Also it is quite sad that any discussion of anything to do with digital system seem to always end up as an analogue vs digital skirmish. But, so be it.

Cheers

 

[Bloom@83]

Good stereo audio systems can go to the extent of delivering near 3D sound.

This is very true. Even on my modest vinyl setup I’ve experienced wall to wall imaging , with some instruments playing almost beside my left and right ear on some exceptionally well recorded albums ( Jagjit Chitra’s The Unforgettables is one desi example ). On some well recorded CDs , I get the same but it’s not as spine tingling as in vinyls.

However , apart from headphones or rear speakers , I’ve never experienced this ‘behind the head ‘ effect on a purely stereo setup, that’s all.

 

[square_wave]

It is your belief that LPs sound better. I respect that.

And I am certainly not going to be bothered by a few bad apples. Those are there in every field

Cheers

Lp does not sound better in all cases. You have not been reading the posts carefully.

If you are into popular music especially the western kind, bad apples are the majority if you were to compare LP vs the digital counterpart. Jazz and classical seem to be spared from this malady. And, it is not my belief. You should try and compare yourself. You will see the light!

If all digital retail masters did adhere to time honored recording practices for max fidelity, then the LP market would be miniscule. Sadly that is not the case.

If I were to hazard a guess,your choice in music works well with digital so you are extrapolating the logic to others as well.

 

[mbhangui]

As I have mentioned before (and you can look up the net), the compression in LPs is far worse. Both the dynamic range and lower and higher frequencies are cut off.

This isn't correct. The lower frequencies are reduced and higher frequencies are increased during recording and restored back during playback. The only reason lower frequencies were reduced using a RIAA equalization curve equation, so that the grooves became smaller to allow more songs to be fitted into the vinyl. During playback the reverse was done. The RIAA curve is actually brilliant and there is no loss of dynamics or content. In fact, the RIAA curve reflects the best minds that came together to fix a practical problem of fitting more music on a single lp record without sacrificing the low frequencies. The brilliance is because the curve also reduces noise due to dust accumulated on records. Records and record player needles are sensitive, so much that even the slightest amount of dust and hair accumulated on either will cause high frequency hiss sounds and the occasional popping sound. By boosting high frequency volumes, this also increases the volume of these hisses and crackles. So why do it?

Because when you later invert the RIAA equalization curve in the electronics of the turntable, you end up reducing the volume of these noises, providing an even clearer listening experience. Let me make more sense of this for you.

No matter what audio is being played by the needle, the hiss and clicks will be the same volume. So by boosting the high frequencies on the record itself, they will drown out these noises. This increases the signal-to-noise ratio, which reduces the volume of the noise floor. So during playback, when the high frequencies are then lowered back to their correct volumes, the noises (which were also boosted but not as much relative to the actual music) are reduced in volume lower than they would have been played back without this equalization curve being applied

Is analog perfect? The RIAA curve doesn't solve the motor rumble problem. So what did the manufacturers do? They kept on improving the motor. Just like analog, digital too isn't perfect. Eventhough humongous amount of work has been done on digital, it is still susceptible to jitter. Analog has never been perfect, but the quality that can be seen with so much imperfections is a testimonial to the human spirit and igenuity. The same ingenuity continues in the digital world. Few years back Fraunhofer Institute said the MP3 codec that they developed is soooo perfect and no humans can actually distinguish between a high quality losless mp3 and uncompressed music. But many of us can actually distinguish between the quality of mp3 and wav/flac/dsd. Companies like apple promoted it and almost destroyed lossless music. The same argument holds when manufacturers say that the human ear cannot hear jitter and other digital imperfections. Tomorrow will be another day.

To quote Amir,

The people who make statements about inaudibility of jitter usually don't know what jitter is . And that it is not one thing. It is infinite number of things. It is like saying that bacteria is dangerous to you. That is only true of some bacteria and certain amount of it.

The father of jitter if you may call, Don Waltman, who first showed that jitter is freqency dependent proved that audibility of jitter highly dependent on the frequency. As far as audibility of jitter is concerned, there is hardly any research on this subject. Dolby Labs in 1988 showed that pure sine wave spectrum jitter can be audible in just a few nanosecond range. So only DAC manufacturers will say jitter is no longer a problem to sell their highly priced dacs. Unless the human species have evolved their ears since 1988 to reject jitter in nanoseconds range, the observations are still valid. Most of us cannot afford to have DACs with that precise clocks or analog systems with LP records that are spotless clean, we should be content with whatever best we have. But when we assume that the system we have is perfect, it is veering towards snake oil, just like the audiophile hard disk or the cable with special super conducting copper or some rare earth material used in an inductor used in a 'make in india' power conditioner or a cable cooker needed to break in a cable. No system is perfect. I myself use digital more than analog and I do believe it is the future and will get better and better every year. As of today, digital may be better and has overtaken analog (I haven't heard a state of the art analog system yet), but to say digital is sooo perfect is incorrect. To bring out the issues with digital is != disparaging digital.

This graph is from dolby labs 1988 AES paper: Theoretical and Audible Effects of Jitter on Digital Audio Quality

 

[arj]

This is very true. Even on my modest vinyl setup I’ve experienced wall to wall imaging , with some instruments playing almost beside my left and right ear on some exceptionally well recorded albums ( Jagjit Chitra’s The Unforgettables is one desi example ). On some well recorded CDs , I get the same but it’s not as spine tingling as in vinyls.

However , apart from headphones or rear speakers , I’ve never experienced this ‘behind the head ‘ effect on a purely stereo setup, that’s all.

There is a difference between a 3D Soundstage forming in Front of you.. Which is what it is mastered for and those forming behind the ears.. I have never heard of it or heard it for a stereo but happy to learn more!!

Just goes to show that you really have not heard a good system playing in a room that has been treated well. I can assure you that there were zero reflections from any of the walls. The rear of the auditioning seat was covered with thick curtains. That is all. How can they reflect anything.

Good stereo audio systems can go to the extent of delivering near 3D sound. Even my relatively inexpensive system projects sound up to level with my ears when I sit some 8-10 feet away from the speakers. I have 1/3rd sound absorbers on the side walls. That is all. Again, the rear of my couch is just curtains and a open window. In addition to that, sometimes, my system positions sound far below the speakers. In literally every song, I can hear and perceive depth and separation between vocal and instruments. In a song from the Tamil movie 'Allay Payudhe', I know exactly where and when the temple bells will ring. I have experienced these and written about them innumerable times on this forum.

Wired out of phase? My god! This is what I call coming to wild conclusions in a hurry.

Cheers.

Lets not deviate from the subject as a 3D image which is the the measure of a speaker setup for even entry level setup, but the point made was about an image forming behind the ear not a 3D image in front which anyone would have heard

Would be very interested to know which music has been mastered for Stereo with an image forming behind the ears with the listener facing the speaker.

Have never ever heard of this and really curious but if it has not been mastered and being heard, the system needs to be setup better,.

 

[jls001]

There is a difference between a 3D Soundstage
Would be very interested to know which music has been mastered for Stereo with an image forming behind the ears with the listener facing the speaker.

I think it was Roger Waters' Amused to Death that has sound emanating from all sorts of directions including the back (I heard it on a 2-ch setup, I don't recall the track though as I'm not into the music of Waters). IMO, it was gimmicky at best.

 

[prem]

As they say all roads lead to Rome. It’s very important that each of one us identify our path that leads to Rome. Everyone is going to have a different path so what are we arguing about?

 

[arj]

I think it was Roger Waters' Amused to Death that has sound emanating from all sorts of directions including the back (I heard it on a 2-ch setup, I don't recall the track though as I'm not into the music of Waters). IMO, it was gimmicky at best.

Thanks! Have that album on digital. Let me test it out next week

Arj, I am surprised that you have not heard music coming from behind you. My kids are usually playing their own music in their bedroom when I am listening to my system. I guess your kids are more disciplined

I have faced music from wife too when I am listening to the stereo!!

 

[prem]

I have faced music from wife too when I am listening to the stereo!!

That’s music to my ears. Not even a 7 speaker surround system can beat that

 

[OM_2K19]

Everyone is going to have a different path so what are we arguing about?

My path is better than yours

 

[prem]

My path is better than yours

My path has casinos, night clubs and dance bars. Does yours?

 

[OM_2K19]

My path has casinos, nightclubs, and dance bars. Does yours?

I am then joining your's...

 

[prem]

I am then joining your's...

There you go

 

[firearm12]

My path is better than yours

I have no money to go to rome. I just watch live telecasts of the journey on different channels on my cheap tv. I am happy.

 

[prem]

I have no money to go to rome. I just watch live telecasts of the journey on different channels on my cheap tv. I am happy.

So home is your Rome

 

[venkatcr]

If you are into popular music especially the western kind, bad apples are the majority if you were to compare LP vs the digital counterpart. Jazz and classical seem to be spared from this malady. And, it is not my belief. You should try and compare yourself. You will see the light!

As I have mentioned many times before, I have heard systems across a vast array of music types and genres.

If I were to hazard a guess, your choice in music works well with digital so you are extrapolating the logic to others as well.

Well, your guess is wrong. If you have bothered to read my reviews I have used a large spectrum of music to assess the system. To make it easy for you, here is what I listen to:

• Film Music from Hindi, Tamil, Telugu and to a smaller extent Bengali and Malayalam.
• Hindustani and Carnatic - both vocal and instrumental.
• Ghazhals, Qawwalis, non-filmi modern Indian vocals and instrumentals.
• Indian and western fusion.
• Western classical.
• Jazz.
• Rock other than really hard rock.
• Japanese music.
• Instrumentals such as Kitaro, Hans Zimmer, Ennio Morricone, John Williams, Mike Oldfield.....
• Italian Music.

There are a lot of genres I ignore such as hip-hop and rap, simply because I dont understand them. But, I think this list is more than enough. If you can recommend some more, I will gladly add it to my list.

Cheers

 

[Bloom@83]

As I have mentioned many times before, I have heard systems across a vast array of music types and genres.



Well, your guess is wrong. If you have bothered to read my reviews I have used a large spectrum of music to assess the system. To make it easy for you, here is what I listen to:

• Film Music from Hindi, Tamil, Telugu and to a smaller extent Bengali and Malayalam.
• Hindustani and Carnatic - both vocal and instrumental.
• Ghazhals, Qawwalis, non-filmi modern Indian vocals and instrumentals.
• Indian and western fusion.
• Western classical.
• Jazz.
• Rock other than really hard rock.
• Japanese music.
• Instrumentals such as Kitaro, Hans Zimmer, Ennio Morricone, John Williams, Mike Oldfield.....
• Italian Music.

There are a lot of genres I ignore such as hip-hop and rap, simply because I dont understand them. But, I think this list is more than enough. If you can recommend some more, I will gladly add it to my list.

Cheers

There is no way Hindi or regional film or non film music , specially those from before 1980 , sounds better on digital (CDs / high res etc ) than on LPs.There cannot be any debate on this.
Most of western classic rock sounds better on LPs too. This is not because of any limitations of digital as a medium , but as others have written here before , of the compression used by mastering engineers for CDs for louder sound (to sound better on cheaper systems for which they are produced en masse ) leading to poorer dynamic range. LPs don’t have this compression.
Classical and jazz recordings on CDs , because they cater generally to audience with better gear ,usually sound excellent on digital as they are mastered with more care.

 

[firearm12]

There is no way Hindi or regional film or non film music , specially those from before 1980 , sounds better on digital (CDs / high res etc ) than on LPs.There cannot be any debate on this.
Most of western classic rock sounds better on LPs too. This is not because of any limitations of digital as a medium , but as others have written here before , of the compression used by mastering engineers for CDs for louder sound (to sound better on cheaper systems for which they are produced en masse ) leading to poorer dynamic range. LPs don’t have this compression.
Classical and jazz recordings on CDs , because they cater generally to audience with better gear ,usually sound excellent on digital as they are mastered with more care.

+1

I have few Hindi old LPs and which are not even first pressings and I have a decent schiit mani phono stage. I can vouch that the quality of playback though these vinyls far exceed any digital file of same songs played through a high quality r2r dac on same system.

 

[RRR]

Even today the SONY ES CD players of the early 90s will sound better than 95% of the stuff available today.

+1

 

[mbhangui]

There is no way Hindi or regional film or non film music , specially those from before 1980 , sounds better on digital (CDs / high res etc ) than on LPs.There cannot be any debate on this.
Most of western classic rock sounds better on LPs too. This is not because of any limitations of digital as a medium , but as others have written here before , of the compression used by mastering engineers for CDs for louder sound (to sound better on cheaper systems for which they are produced en masse ) leading to poorer dynamic range. LPs don’t have this compression.
Classical and jazz recordings on CDs , because they cater generally to audience with better gear ,usually sound excellent on digital as they are mastered with more care.

Take for example Mughal-E-Azam and Pakeezah LPs. The new ones have been digitally mastered in Germany. As far as Mughal-E-Azam is concerned, the entire movie and sound has been digitally reconstructed in Chennai. But the sound is totally different. One may like the digital version of Mughal-E-Azam. But the Pakeezah LP is very different. The original LP from the 70s is way better than the German digital pressing.

EDIT: There is another specific song I remember which is superb on LP. The song "Tere Chehre Se" from the movie Kabhie Kabhie. I haven't yet heard a digital version that comes close to the mastering done on the LP version. When you hear something good on LP, there isn't an equivalent version on digital. Of course that may be just my experience.