Does vinyl sounds better than cd or not?

[prem]

Hi Thad

It's not a square wave in that sense. The wave is not continuous and a lot like what Santy has shown in one of the posts. It's definitely not a continuous sine wave

 

[Santy]

Thanks for the xiph link. That's quite interesting. Revealing too.
But if only music was as simple as a sine wave.
I really wish he repeated the same experiment by converting a music file so that it could put an end to all such debates.
So that leaves me still wondering why the measured DAC output I posted earlier would show aberrations. And how each DAC has different musical performance if all does the same easy job of recovering the input wave perfectly.

Meanwhile I went back to Audacity, an audio editing software I was familiar with.
Anyone can try it out, if we wish to know how extremely complex music wave form is.
Audacity: Download

Download the zip file, no need to install.
Open the program and load any music clip.
Press ctrl and scroll up / down to zoom in/ out
Keep zooming into a congested passage.

This is what I could see for a clip from Taren Zamein Par
It is quite far from being a simple sine wave which just requires a sweep between points to create or recreate.

Zoom in further

Keep zooming in

Now we get to see some curves

Not really simple curves but

Now have reached a zoom level at which the x axis units is almost the sampling rate.

Now it seems the waves are simply connecting the dots in the shortest distance (straight lines).

These straight lines are what are approximated into smooth curves by various technologies.
I now really wish we had an oscilloscope too, so that we could see the output of DAC that does music job rather that of a simple tone generator.

 

[murali_n]

Hi santy,

I would like to rewrite your signature:

"Someone else is more happy with less than what you have"

N.Murali

 

[mowgli80]

@Santy - Computer screens cannot produce continuous curves. If you zoom in to this level, I am not sure how much of that jagged curve is because of the display.

A nice article on futility of high rez music vs 16/44.1 files here. If somebody posted it earlier, please ignore it.

 

[Santy]

Hi santy,

I would like to rewrite your signature:

"Someone else is more happy with less than what you have"

N.Murali

Was it supposed to be a break. Thanks.

@Santy - Computer screens cannot produce continuous curves. If you zoom in to this level, I am not sure how much of that jagged curve is because of the display.

Yes, I agree the display resolution is limiting it.

 

[asliarun]

Santy, apologies. In hindsight, I should have worded my last post a lot better.

Here is what I think about this.

The Nyquist theorem is actually very simple. Both analog and digital devices don't know anything about tonality or detail. Or our speakers or the mic or our eardrum or our neurons. They only know that if a compression air wave hits them which is music, they can store or reproduce this change in air pressure.

Now, if our ear drums and brain can only listen to music from 20 hz to 20000 hz it only means one thing. That the slowest it can react to an audio wave or a change in air pressure is 1/20 seconds and the fastest it can react is 1/20000 seconds. Anything slower or faster is irrelevant, just like watching a video shot at 10000 frames a second is immaterial. Our eyes and ears and brain have these limits to process audio and video.

We also don't see people have huge debates about loss of visual detail due to video being played only at 60 frames a second. And arguably, we are a visual species and our visual perception skill is far far superior to our audio perception skill. Loss of eyesight is debilitating whereas loss of hearing is a smaller impediment.

The Nyquist theory states that if your limits are these two time intervals I mentioned, it samples the frequency changes at twice this maximum rate, and is thus guaranteed that no changes in frequency is lost. And no audio is lost. Because the fastest a frequency change can happen is 1/20 millisecond.

Detail or tonality or warmth of music refers to our perception of the music. No matter how much detail you try to cram in, it cannot exceed the speed of the audio wave.

And isn't vinyl also storing the sound wave in discrete samples as discrete grooves? After all the needle has to move to make sound, and even when it is playing say a constant 20khz note, all the needle is doing is moving a set amount once every 1/20 milliseconds. And so is the speaker driver.

 

[Shivam]

A little off topic -
Anyone who loves his LPs more and wants to reduce CDs and similarly
anyone who loves CDs more and wants to reduce LPs...
..... pm me. hyeah:

 

[haisaikat]

And isn't vinyl also storing the sound wave in discrete samples as discrete grooves? After all the needle has to move to make sound, and even when it is playing say a constant 20khz note, all the needle is doing is moving a set amount once every 1/20 milliseconds. And so is the speaker driver.

This is interesting, so is there any theory to justify that between two consecutive 1/20 millisecond instances what the needle is doing? Is it maintaining the same level due to inertia of motion or coming down to zero level? Well if this is answered well I think we can move to a point where we can safely say that LIKE CDs, VINYLS are also not storing continuos information.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Just one comment, so far, on the last chunk of reading...

Now have reached a zoom level at which the x axis units is almost the sampling rate.

...

Now it seems the waves are simply connecting the dots in the shortest distance (straight lines).

I'm sure that they are. When you zoom in this far in an editor, you are looking at individual samples (the dots). It's only my assumption, but I doubt if the programmer attempted to do anything else other than join them with more or less straight lines.

Alternatively, sure, sine waves are not real music, and, who knows, maybe real music can and does contain straight lines between those dots?

What happens if you generate some sine wave in Audacity, and focus in on its dots?

(answer: at 440hz, at least, it is conclusive: at least on my system, the display is not up to this)

 

[asliarun]

This is interesting, so is there any theory to justify that between two consecutive 1/20 millisecond instances what the needle is doing? Is it maintaining the same level due to inertia of motion or coming down to zero level? Well if this is answered well I think we can move to a point where we can safely say that LIKE CDs, VINYLS are also not storing continuos information.

I think the needle has to come to zero level. The needle does not know in advance where it has to go next. And if it stays in one place, it is no longer producing sound because sound and electrical signals are created by motion.

Same with a driver. It has to keep vibrating in a discrete manner to produce continuous sound, even to maintain the same frequency sound.

I will confess that I am most definitely not an authority, and this is my understanding. Am willing to be corrected.

 

[asliarun]

Just one comment, so far, on the last chunk of reading...



I'm sure that they are. When you zoom in this far in an editor, you are looking at individual samples (the dots). It's only my assumption, but I doubt if the programmer attempted to do anything else other than join them with more or less straight lines.

Alternatively, sure, sine waves are not real music, and, who knows, maybe real music can and does contain straight lines between those dots?

What happens if you generate some sine wave in Audacity, and focus in on its dots?

(answer: at 440hz, at least, it is conclusive: at least on my system, the display is not up to this)

Real music happens when our ear reacts to air molecules pushing it. This is a discrete phenomenon akin to rain falling on a tin roof or someone beating a drum. It is dependant on the particle nature of matter, not the wave nature. If I shine pure electromagnetic radiation in your ear, it will not pick up the radiation. It will only react to molecules physically pushing it or pulling it.

And the neurons that get fired are also discrete firings.

The brain stitches all this and gives the illusion of continuity. It is a gestalt closure property. And our brain is very very good at gestalt closure.

 

[jls001]

On the analog to digital conversion part of the discussion, there is lots of confusion. Someone inclined should read up on Pulse Code Modulation theory and process. I think our answers lie there.

Regarding music being sinusoidal waves, I think there is further confusion. Fourier only said that all periodic wave forms can be described as an infinite series of sine waves. (edit: the fact that there is this word "infinite" should immediately raise alerts - to the fact that it is theory and therefore any practical implementation should therefore be an approximation). Now, the question is, is music periodic in nature? I still hate Fourier. He made life very difficult for me. Laplace too. :lol:

 

[haisaikat]

I think the needle has to come to zero level. The needle does not know in advance where it has to go next. And if it stays in one place, it is no longer producing sound because sound and electrical signals are created by motion.

Same with a driver. It has to keep vibrating in a discrete manner to produce continuous sound, even to maintain the same frequency sound.

I will confess that I am most definitely not an authority, and this is my understanding. Am willing to be corrected.

Well not putting anything on you, even I do not know. Searched on internet and found this link, see the magnified image of record grooves, seems the movement induced is horizontal and not vertical (that was my misconception) but the things to note is that these curves look type of sinusoidal. Now I am beginning to think that vinyl stores continuous data. Am open to suggestions further though

 

[omishra]

^^ in stereo LP, zig zig path correspond to left channel! depth of groove changing in accordance with right channel. So it's horizontal as well as vertical too.

 

[jls001]

Record grooves are not sinusoidal. Our imaginations are running riot now

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Real music happens when our ear reacts to air molecules pushing it. ... ... ... The brain stitches all this and gives the illusion of continuity. It is a gestalt closure property. And our brain is very very good at gestalt closure.

Somewhere, recently, I read that music doesn't exist until the second stage of your model: it only happens in the brain.

But this gets a bit too Zen-like : does the music stop if you leave the house. Is there any point in leaving the speakers playing to burn them in while you're at work, unless you get someone to listen --- because without a brain, there is no music! hyeah:

 

[asliarun]

Thanks haisaikat. Those are some stunning photographs. I still don't understand how the vinyl can transition cleanly from one frequency to another. Say I am playing a 20khz note and immediately switch to a 50hz note. I would not want my vinyl to play the entire audio spectrum to reach the bottom note - which would happen in a continuous design. Since a vinyl does not do so, it should be discrete storage, should it not?

 

[asliarun]

Somewhere, recently, I read that music doesn't exist until the second stage of your model: it only happens in the brain.

But this gets a bit too Zen-like : does the music stop if you leave the house. Is there any point in leaving the speakers playing to burn them in while you're at work, unless you get someone to listen --- because without a brain, there is no music! hyeah:

Thad sir, you have potential to be a script writer for a Matrix sequel

But I was trying to say that our auditory sense captures audio signals in a discrete manner. And that Mr Nyquist should be put to rest.

I still maintain that analog is superior because the imperfections and error recovery mechanism does not destroy the music. However, in digital, it seems to do so in very perceptible ways.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Say I am playing a 20khz note and immediately switch to a 50hz note.

Probably the same way as your vocal chords do --- allowing for the physical constraints. inertia, and all that.

Thad sir, you have potential to be a script writer for a Matrix sequel

:lol:

You'd be referring to the famous blind listening tests done by a group of the that name, in, I think, Hungary, of course?

(Or more likely Spain according to their e-mail address)

The one that leaves audiophools writhing on the floor crying that the testers probably had no ears, and even if they did, the whole thing was invalid, because those involved had not been admitted solely on the basis of the cost of their mains leads hyeah: hyeah:. Their site doesn't seem to have been added to for some years: maybe some audiophools, err, paid them a visit

Here's their take on copying vinyl to CD and comparing the results. Must have a re-read for myself, as I've forgotten what they say.

 

[jls001]

But this gets a bit too Zen-like : does the music stop if you leave the house. Is there any point in leaving the speakers playing to burn them in while you're at work, unless you get someone to listen --- because without a brain, there is no music! hyeah:

A mighty tree falls in the deep jungle. There is no one to observe its fall. Did it really fall? Or didn't it?

This thread is delving (even deeper) into the realm of existential questions! I thought trying to grapple with "Does vinyl sounds better than cd or not?" is existential enough