Full Rangers

[jenson]

my limited exposure is with earlier iteration of Rethm Saadhana, which used the Lowther Speakers. there are many a things it doesnt do, but for what it does, it's simply incredible - pristine sound stage and imaging, spectacular tone and mid range(colored) and the level of detail and clarity it offers is outstanding.

It's challenging to determine how much of this excellence is due to Rethm's design and how much credit goes to the Lowther speakers. It could also be a characteristic of full-range setups in general. Either way, the overall experience has left a mark...

therefore to come to the point of this thread....
1. does full range speaker setups have aforesaid qualities, especially when paired with set amps?
2. has anyone here compared lowther vs .... if so, your experiences..
3. how does linkwitz systems fare in comparison

keen to dabble back into a full range setup as a system 2.

 

[Sumanta]

Well, I will most probably be not giving information you're expecting, rather will be clarifying one thing that is differently perceived.

There is no Full Range driver available in the world which has a near flat SPL curve ranging from 20 Hz to 20K Hz. At the most drivers can be called wide banders.

 

[jenson]

Well, I will most probably be not giving information you're expecting, rather will be clarifying one thing that is differently perceived.

There is no Full Range driver available in the world which has a near flat SPL curve ranging from 20 Hz to 20K Hz. At the most drivers can be called wide banders.

Yes, that's agreed. Hence most designs incorporate sub in one form or other..

 

[Kannan_madhu]

Rethm speakers have active woofers which fill in the low end

 

[yogibear]

Many full range drivers have an excellent extension at both ends.

Among new ones and most affordable is Fane 12TC, 17k to well under 100hz. An old treasure is Matsushita 8PW1, similar 17k to well under 100hz.

8PW1, Measured on open baffle at my seated position as a single driver, driven by 6L6 SE amps:



These two are just examples to give an idea as what some select fullrange drivers are capable of. However measuring TSP of the actual drivers tells one what enclosure each would be well suited for. IME putting them just for OB duty is otherwise wasting a great driver. Depending on their TSP, they could really shine in a BLH or FLH or Ported or even as horn loaded OB or just a horn design. And yes, since these are mostly high dB, 95 plus, these really bring out an amazing listening experience when driven from SET or a DHT.

 

[kratu]

@yogibear Could you also recommend few brands of full-range drivers, preferably in 6" or 8"? high sensitivity and natural rendering of vocals. The simplicity and coherence of a full-range speaker is very alluding. The obvious limitations turn me the other way.

 

[yogibear]

@yogibear Could you also recommend few brands of full-range drivers, preferably in 6" or 8"? high sensitivity and natural rendering of vocals. The simplicity and coherence of a full-range speaker is very alluding. The obvious limitations turn me the other way.

Check Faital Pro full range drivers though in 4.5” and 5.5” in sizes IIRC, but excellent sounding.

Betsy for OB and Betsy K for TL from:

Speakers – Wild Burro Audio Labs

wildburroaudio.com

Lowther option (and no shouts) at lower price is Matsushita 8PW1 from eBay US or Japan (though the price is higher these days)

Sleeping treasure are fullrange by Calrad, occasionally on sale at eBay US, and coaxials too from same brand, sometimes NOS are offered too. One particular is white paper cone 8” with indestructible inverted cone, inexpensive but with exemplary sound and frequency bandwidth, ferrite.

I would pick any of these as I have them all and are best VFM.

 

[kratu]

Check Faital Pro full range drivers though in 4.5” and 5.5” in sizes IIRC, but excellent sounding.

Betsy for OB and Betsy K for TL from:

Speakers – Wild Burro Audio Labs

wildburroaudio.com

Lowther option (and no shouts) at lower price is Matsushita 8PW1 from eBay US or Japan (though the price is higher these days)

Sleeping treasure are fullrange by Calrad, occasionally on sale at eBay US, and coaxials too from same brand, sometimes NOS are offered too. One particular is white paper cone 8” with indestructible inverted cone, inexpensive but with exemplary sound and frequency bandwidth, ferrite.

I would pick any of these as I have them all and are best VFM.

Faital Pro seems to be accessible among these. They have a local dealer. 5.5" might be workable. Could you share the exact model number?
I could find 6PR122 which has 125-10,000Hz.

I'll check the others as well. While we are at it, any idea of Mark Audio, Lii Song, Fostex or SEAS? How do they compare with the above? Are there any key measurements that I should consider?

 

[yogibear]

Faital Pro seems to be accessible among these. They have a local dealer. 5.5" might be workable. Could you share the exact model number?
I could find 6PR122 which has 125-10,000Hz.

I'll check the others as well. While we are at it, any idea of Mark Audio, Lii Song, Fostex or SEAS? How do they compare with the above? Are there any key measurements that I should consider?

Faital 4FE35.

Lii Audio is nice but now expensive and import hassles. (As opposed to hand carry)

Try to look for paper cone drivers with durable surrounds for natural rendition of vocals.

Fostex or Seas, again the desirable ones are quite expensive.

If you can afford an OB space or really large box, Fane Soveriegn 12-250TC sends many expensive legends packing…

One SB FR is turning heads too.

 

[premoddev]

SB Acoustics SB20FRPC30-8 is getting rave reviews everywhere and its locally available with audiofy.

SB Acoustics SB20FRPC30-8 Paper Cone Full Range

SB Acoustics SB20FRPC30-8 Paper Cone Full Range Features Proprietary cone material with natural fibers made in-house Light weight foam surround Optimized whizzer cone for smooth high frequency extension Phase plug for controlled radiation Large spider for improved linearity Optimized motor...

audiofy.in

One of the other option is a customized 8 inch full ranger based on Philips which was available with @analogadikt. Not sure still its there with him, I have tried it on an OB and in an closed cabinet also. Very good for vocal centric music ( like film music of before 2000).

 

[Arvind Singh Lodhi]

Audionirvana 15" Super Alnico once sold by commonsenseaudio.com, goes from 15khz to well below 50hz, probably 35hz in ported large boxes.

 

[Sumanta]

Many full range drivers have an excellent extension at both ends.

Among new ones and most affordable is Fane 12TC, 17k to well under 100hz. An old treasure is Matsushita 8PW1, similar 17k to well under 100hz.

8PW1, Measured on open baffle at my seated position as a single driver, driven by 6L6 SE amps:

View attachment 85418

These two are just examples to give an idea as what some select fullrange drivers are capable of. However measuring TSP of the actual drivers tells one what enclosure each would be well suited for. IME putting them just for OB duty is otherwise wasting a great driver. Depending on their TSP, they could really shine in a BLH or FLH or Ported or even as horn loaded OB or just a horn design. And yes, since these are mostly high dB, 95 plus, these really bring out an amazing listening experience when driven from SET or a DHT.

How wrong or far a truth can be than this, when both ends of the curve is falling down like a free falling stone. Please call them wide banders or follow marketing team of driver manufacturers who loves to use this FR term.
The point is Full range drivers should be reached and SPL chart should have near flat reading. Bring one such reading of one such existing real driver, I will be the happiest person to use the phase Full range driver for such a gem like one.
Will drivers you mentioned works, yes by all means but with compromises, augmentation by various means. By definition, I repeat, they are not FR drivers, a mere good wide bander drivers. Period.

Drivers used in Sebelious speakers are probably quite a wide bander driver but it still needs augmentation from the cabinet. Grandale 17E as such also is a very good wide bander for its size.

 

[Sumanta]

Yes, that's agreed. Hence most designs incorporate sub in one form or other..

Sub or HF playing drivers or both.

 

[keith_correa]

How wrong or far a truth can be than this, when both ends of the curve is falling down like a free falling stone. Please call them wide banders or follow marketing team of driver manufacturers who loves to use this FR term.
The point is Full range drivers should be reached and SPL chart should have near flat reading. Bring one such reading of one such existing real driver, I will be the happiest person to use the phase Full range driver for such a gem like one.
Will drivers you mentioned works, yes by all means but with compromises, augmentation by various means. By definition, I repeat, they are not FR drivers, a mere good wide bander drivers. Period.

Drivers used in Sebelious speakers are probably quite a wide bander driver but it still needs augmentation from the cabinet. Grandale 17E as such also is a very good wide bander for its size.

I agree for the most part.

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Take a look at the frequency/impedance chart below of a FR driver. Most would consider this a decent FR.



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But opinion about this from a guy who knows his stuff is:

...the driver sounds screechy, shouty, honky, and virtually unlistenable without a great deal of reinforcement from cabinet resonance, or maybe reflected midbass output from a front-firing vent....

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So, he developed a "contour filter" to fix this:


*GREEN: without filter
*BLUE: with filter

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And here's the filter:


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[kratu]

How wrong or far a truth can be than this, when both ends of the curve is falling down like a free falling stone. Please call them wide banders or follow marketing team of driver manufacturers who loves to use this FR term.

Sure, semantics do matter, especially when they are marketed/ sold with those claims. "Full range" does sound like they can reproduce the entire range of octaves.

The Pearl Sibelious uses a customised version of Mark Audio drivers. And, I also found mention of them in Decware's speaker build. So, these seem to be promising. Personally, I'd rather "augment" or reinforce with cabinets. Having a subwoofer would essentially make it a two-way; or is it 1.1.

 

[jenson]

Sub or HF playing drivers or both.

My direct experience is with earlier design of Rethm, where FR was not connected to any crossover, the bass module however had it's independent bass module with volume and freq control...this was quite helpful to just add that tinge of bass flavor..and as you may know, it's port placement was quite unique... This allowed the FR speaker, lowther in this case to float free and do it's thing.

I think it's common knowledge that when one uses the word FR, they dont expect the driver to do the whole dance from treble to bass, it's also understood that and FR/WB, need a damn good cabinet to get the most out of it, especially bass. Its also understood that it won't have the sparkle of a traditional tweeter/electrostat....

I guess what I and may I dare say we, like about FR is it's midrange, that's not for everyone... Plus the fact that it's Crossoverless, this combined with a good SET amp is an experience worth looking into...

 

[yogibear]

Sure, semantics do matter, especially when they are marketed/ sold with those claims. "Full range" does sound like they can reproduce the entire range of octaves.

The Pearl Sibelious uses a customised version of Mark Audio drivers. And, I also found mention of them in Decware's speaker build. So, these seem to be promising. Personally, I'd rather "augment" or reinforce with cabinets. Having a subwoofer would essentially make it a two-way; or is it 1.1.

Exactly. That’s what I pointed out when I said a particular cabinet design for a particular promising driver.

And when you do that and drive them from tubes, the magic is to be experienced.

And unless you have indulged with these, you don’t know what you are taking about. And personally what matters to me most is what I am I getting to listen to at my own listening position.

My direct experience is with earlier design of Rethm, where FR was not connected to any crossover, the bass module however had it's independent bass module with volume and freq control...this was quite helpful to just add that tinge of bass flavor..and as you may know, it's port placement was quite unique... This allowed the FR speaker, lowther in this case to float free and do it's thing.

I think it's common knowledge that when one uses the word FR, they dont expect the driver to do the whole dance from treble to bass, it's also understood that and FR/WB, need a damn good cabinet to get the most out of it, especially bass. Its also understood that it won't have the sparkle of a traditional tweeter/electrostat....

I guess what I and may I dare say we, like about FR is it's midrange, that's not for everyone... Plus the fact that it's Crossoverless, this combined with a good SET amp is an experience worth looking into...

You sum up my own experiences with 2 way OBs.

Fane 12 250TC and its bigger 15” brother. Check the whole Diyaudio thread on them.

Some actual user references, where an FR is used for mid to HF duty:

Showrooms

Our showroom gives details of installations of our products around the world. The latest additions are shown at the top, the older ones will remain there to show possible options from which all parts are still available in case you like that idea to use as your own.

www.bd-design.nl

 

[Sumanta]

Sameer (yogibear) and all, I am talking here only about a definition of a full ranger driver - which should be read like this - A full range driver should be able to deliver similar (say +/- (x) dB) sound pressure level for frequency range ranging from 20 Hz to 20,000Hz.

Per me that x variable should be 1 or max upto 2. Once it is 3 dB that means doubling up the volume or halving it. I have not seen any such driver yet.
All the above mentioned curves are not even ranging the whole 20 to 20K Hz even sometimes, some are dropping at both ends at close to 90 degrees falls, which I don't know as resulting in how much of negative dB values.

Cut short, there is no Full Range driver in the world yet that is made by human being.

Now, will that driver be sounding nice, listenable, usable and all that? It is beyond my point at the start.

As a speaker, where it is a combination of driver(s) and the cabinet (closed or open), it is a design with one or many compromises.

My direct experience is with earlier design of Rethm, where FR was not connected to any crossover, the bass module however had it's independent bass module with volume and freq control...this was quite helpful to just add that tinge of bass flavor..and as you may know, it's port placement was quite unique... This allowed the FR speaker, lowther in this case to float free and do it's thing.

I think it's common knowledge that when one uses the word FR, they dont expect the driver to do the whole dance from treble to bass, it's also understood that and FR/WB, need a damn good cabinet to get the most out of it, especially bass. Its also understood that it won't have the sparkle of a traditional tweeter/ electrostat

I guess what I and may I dare say we, like about FR is it's midrange, that's not for everyone... Plus the fact that it's Crossover less, this combined with a good SET amp is an experience worth looking into...

There has to be a cross over if there's more than one driver in a speaker. It can be either natural (driver's inability to produce any further), active or passive as per design.

 

[yogibear]

my limited exposure is with earlier iteration of Rethm Saadhana, which used the Lowther Speakers. there are many a things it doesnt do, but for what it does, it's simply incredible - pristine sound stage and imaging, spectacular tone and mid range(colored) and the level of detail and clarity it offers is outstanding.

It's challenging to determine how much of this excellence is due to Rethm's design and how much credit goes to the Lowther speakers. It could also be a characteristic of full-range setups in general. Either way, the overall experience has left a mark...

therefore to come to the point of this thread....
1. does full range speaker setups have aforesaid qualities, especially when paired with set amps?
2. has anyone here compared lowther vs .... if so, your experiences..
3. how does linkwitz systems fare in comparison

keen to dabble back into a full range setup as a system 2.

The tread starter did not mention discussing an FR doing 20-20k anywhere. Within 1dB it’s even hard accomplishing in a multi-way…. I just tried to share my own experience with an FR. If I missed the actual query, please correct me.

I would reiterate, there are some exceptional FRs, and if cleverly put in their cabs and driven by a nice SET, it’s worth the effort and an experience of its own. After all love / pleasure of music listening brings us all here on this forum. Though personally I prefer to couple an FR with a separate bass driver.

BS designs has been a great source of inspiration for me for speakers designs.

 

[Sumanta]

Please do not call them FR, call them Wide banders. Knowingly, do not write or speak wrong things if you believe in science and its way of delivering definitions a accurately and truthfully as possible.

I myself use a few wide banders and am happy about their performances and limitations.

Let's continue with the topic now on.