reubensm
Well-Known Member
Some pictures of my very early model 401 which I located on my PC, thought I'll share them.
Garrard Turntable Owner's Club
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reubensm
Well-Known Member
Here are some more pics of FM RPM's Garrard AT60
Technics_Fan
Member
Here is my Garrard...a very basic Model 1000 changer with it original EEI cartridge that came along with it... think it is a EEI CS-2000 if my memory serves right...
The box-styled plinth was built by HMV....Got this over a decade ago and has been serving me well with no issues...Every year i perform the ritual of cleaning the old grease and re-lubing with some new lithium grease...I generally use this changer to stack my shellacs and occasionally EPs... Cosmetically the changer per se has seen better days... Always wanted to respray faceplate but haven't managed to find a opportunity yet...
The box-styled plinth was built by HMV....Got this over a decade ago and has been serving me well with no issues...Every year i perform the ritual of cleaning the old grease and re-lubing with some new lithium grease...I generally use this changer to stack my shellacs and occasionally EPs... Cosmetically the changer per se has seen better days... Always wanted to respray faceplate but haven't managed to find a opportunity yet...
Isn't rumble part of design criteria for this TT
then you end up making a multilayer plinth to eliminate it!Isn't rumble part of design criteria for this TT
You are writing this on a Garrard fan club thread ? :lol:
The Garrard 301 manual in its Technical Specifications lists Rumble measurements as 'Almost non-existent'. So, don't know what the fuss in the analog forums on this matter is all about. Never had a problem myself, never heard any rumble, even despite having a very basic plinth. Guess this issue has been blown up by exotic plinth manufacturers to sell their expensive wares. The DIY boys have gone along, it would appear.
reubensm
Well-Known Member
I think it is fair to say, another name for idler drives would be rumbling drives :lol:
Having said this, and being very honest here, as Anil rightly mentioned, with a heavily loaded plinth, careful spec-driven servicing of the deck, and with a good idler wheel and bearing, the rumbling can be negated. I have heard some Garrards (including mine) play in stereo, with no audible rumble, provided the bass control is kept in flat position. Whenever I have heard a 301 play, when the bass control was turned up, there was slight audible rumble, even when using the Loricraft sliced golf-ball plinth
For a transcriptor idler turntables a good tight tolerance smooth bearing, perfect idler wheel and noise free motor is a must. Hands, Stethoscope, good speakers and ears are good tools to evaluate turntable if comparison is criteria. Lenco's vertical idler is a brilliant idea to override minor slip and imperfections in the wheel if any.
For rumble don't go by published measurements. An unweighted rumble figure (Garrard -50dB I guess) is pretty good high standard than a weighted one (-75dB for a typical belt/direct drive). In my limited knowledge weighted means measurements done only on limited frequency range with the idea that we can not hear it at other range.
Regardless of turntable used, other sources for rumble can be tonearm-cartridge combination and acoustic vibrations falling on plinth. A small video I made. feedback I think feedback is in lower mid range.
Regards
P.S. I like all types of turntables. :licklips:
For rumble don't go by published measurements. An unweighted rumble figure (Garrard -50dB I guess) is pretty good high standard than a weighted one (-75dB for a typical belt/direct drive). In my limited knowledge weighted means measurements done only on limited frequency range with the idea that we can not hear it at other range.
Regardless of turntable used, other sources for rumble can be tonearm-cartridge combination and acoustic vibrations falling on plinth. A small video I made. feedback I think feedback is in lower mid range.
Regards
P.S. I like all types of turntables. :licklips:
Isnt it true that the most appropriate way of handling rumble is mass ? Nantais does it, Art Dudley has done it and many more. They all claim zero rumble. The plinths made by Loricraft may have some sonic benefits in other areas because of the additional isolation provided by squash balls but total rumble removal by that approach seems far fetched. Check out this plinth which is on a similar principle as Loricraft but considered to be sonically superior:
Vinylista - Garrard 301 / 401 / Thorens 124 - Suspended Solid Wood Plinth (made in Germany) | Turntables | Berlin, 10827 | Audiogon - The High-end Audio Community
I have owned a top grade suspended belt drive in the past and now I am running a moderately done up Garrard 301 (oil bearing). The primary differences I hear when I play around with various mats and isolation devices gives me an impression that isolation is a huge factor in getting the Garrard go from good to great. With all the slam, PRAT, dynamics it can throw into the mix, if it doesnt sound elegant and refined enough it becomes difficult to believe (the sense of realism suffers). So really good isolation is a key driver to get the Garrard going. Now, how much mass and how much suspension one should go with is a case to experiment. May be if mounted on a wall mounted shelf it will take care of a lot of things. Still more is needed.
Secondly, the quality of power. The other day I was talking to Dave Slagle who is also a big time Garrard fan. He suggested to go with a Loricraft speed controller and at the same keep the eddy current brakes engaged. Basically turn the speed knob on the Garrard to the highest rotation so that eddy brakes are almost 90% disengaged and then use the loricraft speed controller to lower the speed. That way you get the best of both worlds without losing the Garrard sound.
Another nice tweak that has come out recently is this one:
Garrard 301 Precision Eddy Brake Disc Woodsong Audio Exclusive | Turntables | Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 | Audiogon - The High-end Audio Community
The woodsong guys do a very good job with Garrards, so this is a promising product without spending a lot.
Secondly, the quality of power. The other day I was talking to Dave Slagle who is also a big time Garrard fan. He suggested to go with a Loricraft speed controller and at the same keep the eddy current brakes engaged. Basically turn the speed knob on the Garrard to the highest rotation so that eddy brakes are almost 90% disengaged and then use the loricraft speed controller to lower the speed. That way you get the best of both worlds without losing the Garrard sound.
Another nice tweak that has come out recently is this one:
Garrard 301 Precision Eddy Brake Disc Woodsong Audio Exclusive | Turntables | Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 | Audiogon - The High-end Audio Community
The woodsong guys do a very good job with Garrards, so this is a promising product without spending a lot.
Pictures and more details like arm, cart, phono please.
And of course a comparo with the old beltie would be very interesting.
Mass loading is one of the better known, and easily achievable, methods. Of course the Loricraft way is a very valid alternative.
Besides the plinth itself, cleaning, oiling, lubing the bearing and motor, and making sure the transport screws are loosened or altogether removed, help reduce rumble. The idler wheel should also be in top shape. To my mind, rumble is a non issue due to the above stated reasons. If someone's idler drive TT rumbles, he hasn't done enough to silence it.
Here is a pic:
It is a 301 oil bearing. The record mat is a Trans-fi resomat. The TT has a kokomo mk2 bearing.
Tonearm - SME M2-12
Cartridge - Audio Technica ART9
Phonostage: Naim Superline with Supercap power supply
One thing, my TT is not screwed to the plinth as of now. It is only kept on the plinth. Is it a problem ?
It is a 301 oil bearing. The record mat is a Trans-fi resomat. The TT has a kokomo mk2 bearing.
Tonearm - SME M2-12
Cartridge - Audio Technica ART9
Phonostage: Naim Superline with Supercap power supply
One thing, my TT is not screwed to the plinth as of now. It is only kept on the plinth. Is it a problem ?
Definitely a problem. Anothe vibration zone. The washers below the top screws serve to absorb resonaces. It would also be good to add washers (or gaskets ) between the nuts and the underside of the plinth. Don't over tighten the nuts tho'. A nice firm fit would probably get the best results.
+1 to what G401fan said.
The plinth must absorb the vibration coming from the motor. So a firm coupling will do a better job of draining away the vibes from the motor to the plinth instead of just a loose coupling (as in just having it sit on the plinth).
Also, I would personally not use a mushroom type rubber coupling between the motor assembly and high mass plinth. If using skeletal plinth, it's another story. The aluminium top plate must sit firmly on the plinth. Then use the four screws to tighten the top plate to the plinth. Try various tightness, as sound changes with the tightness (same thing applies to tightness of cartridge).
In future you may also like to experiment with a different grease on your bearing. High grade bicycle grease are supposed to be very good. Especially Japanese ones. I personally favour more viscous oil in idler bearing as it produces some friction against which the motor has to perform more work. I think when it works against something that's constantly opposing the motor produces more torque and therefore have better speed stability and drive.
The plinth must absorb the vibration coming from the motor. So a firm coupling will do a better job of draining away the vibes from the motor to the plinth instead of just a loose coupling (as in just having it sit on the plinth).
Also, I would personally not use a mushroom type rubber coupling between the motor assembly and high mass plinth. If using skeletal plinth, it's another story. The aluminium top plate must sit firmly on the plinth. Then use the four screws to tighten the top plate to the plinth. Try various tightness, as sound changes with the tightness (same thing applies to tightness of cartridge).
In future you may also like to experiment with a different grease on your bearing. High grade bicycle grease are supposed to be very good. Especially Japanese ones. I personally favour more viscous oil in idler bearing as it produces some friction against which the motor has to perform more work. I think when it works against something that's constantly opposing the motor produces more torque and therefore have better speed stability and drive.
I just bought and installed this upgraded Eddy brake wheel made by Woodsong Audio: Garrard 301 Precision Eddy Brake Disc Woodsong Audio Exclusive | Turntables | Sandpoint, Idaho 83864 | Audiogon - The High-end Audio Community
It turned out to be a nice upgrade. My 301 is now quieter and purer sounding. The presentation is more solid and less nervous. Background details stand out more convincingly too. Very nice overall!
It turned out to be a nice upgrade. My 301 is now quieter and purer sounding. The presentation is more solid and less nervous. Background details stand out more convincingly too. Very nice overall!
reubensm
Well-Known Member
My 301 is bolted without washers. Can you suggest the material to use for washers. Also my 301's OEM screw-heads are a bit old-looking. Was planning to upgrade them to newer ones. Any suggestions.
Recently while on a short visit to the west-coast, I bumped into a guy who had a regular Garrard bolted to a 5-layer plywood plinth (each board was about an inch thick). I noticed that he had very thin rubber sheets sandwiched between each of the layers. He was not able to justify the reason, just saying that someone else had built it for him. Would this be a good idea? I have noticed the significant user of rubber on the under-side of the SP10 platter and also a layer is used between the deck and the plinth, the tonearm and plinth as well.
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The use of a viscoelastic layer between two similar or dissimilar panels is called constrained layer damping (CLD). Notice the word viscoelastic. If the constraining layer is not viscoelastic, it isn't CLD in the strictest sense of the term.
You could make them from any sheet of thin rubber (2mm to 3mm thick, I guess), or you could buy them from here:
Garrard 301 / 401 Chassis Isolation Washers | eBay
You might also be able to find replacement screw heads on eBay.
The original set of parts for the 301 included 4 heavy duty springs and metal washers (along with a mounting diagram) to be used below the four corners of the top board where it would attach to the rest of the plinth. In other words, Garrard wanted the entire assembly to be spring mounted, for additional isolation. Now, while most modern set-ups tend to be non-isolated, on a firm chassis, one wonders whether it's been wise to second guess the original designers. The SME plinth, which was quite popular in the 60s (you see many on eBay) was also spring loaded.
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