Guide me on an amplifier route.

[rageisthan]

TLDR; What do I expect from upgrading my 45W(Marantz PM6007) amp to a 100W amp [other than the loudness] with my 89 dB rated speakers(Wharfedale Diamond 12.3) which can take an amplifier up to 150W pc?


Backstory:

I was able to audition a pair of 88 dB rated speaker recently. I had requested to audition the speakers with their 80W amp. I do not know the exact term to describe what I heard, but the sound seemed to be compressed between the speakers. It felt as if all the instruments were being played at the same spot and rest of the room was just air, the speakers were trying to scream but were unable to do so. The room had been acoustically treated. So I requested to audition the speakers with their Top of Line 200W amp (Way out of my budget). The speakers SANG and HOWWW!! The stage was spectacular and there were layers to the audio and the vocals brought the singer to life. I have already booked a 100W amp to replace my existing 45W amp. I wish to have wider sound stage. The amp that I have ordered is the O&B SS2150, after reading all the praises it received in the forum. My question to someone with experience is, how do amplifiers improve sound stage or is it just an illusion caused by added volume?

 

[chander]

Please do wait for more experienced FMs to chime in; however just to give a basic overview of why I feel that could be the case -
1 - The music contains loud & quieter passages. Pick up a DB meter sometime ( a basic app will do just fine) & you will see your music hovering within a range. For example if you set say 75% of volume range on your amp, that takes you to a 80DB Sound level. The DB meter will show a maximum an average and a real time. The maximum can sometime be around 5-6Db higher which is A LOT. The average could be 1-2db above what you are seeing real time that will be around the 80DB mark.
2 - Those 7-8DB maximum peaks come sporadically within the music and when they do, you need an amp to have enough/efficient power on tap to provide it - which is also referred to as headroom.
3 - Now lets simplify the math (it is far more complex than this) - but in the lay-terms I understand. If lets say - to produce 80Db in your room your amp requires 15W, to gain 3DB odd, your amp will require 30W (wattage required doubles with every 3DB gain) - now the song requires another 3DB to push, your amp doesn't have enough juice in it for that as now you require 60W for that.
4 - EVEN THOUGH I AM NOT SURE ON THIS - The difference in the volume of different instruments/voices also gives the music a soundstage, so it feels like a singer is in front of the band or the drummer is on the left. If you play a tune that does a stereo sweep on your speakers, you will notice when the sound moves from left to right speaker, when it is moving between, it is not as loud as when it is either on the left or the right.

Please note - I am oversimplifying this and I am not qualified to answer such a complex question, but just in case this helps.

 

[Miany]

My question to someone with experience is, how do amplifiers improve sound stage or is it just an illusion caused by added volume?

Not just amplifiers, every component in your chain can influence the soundstage.. make it better or worse.. and the most important thing is not to assume that a higher power amplifier will be having a more WIDER and PRECISE soundstage....

My amplifier is a mere 33 watt amplifier and I have experienced it bettering more POWERFULL amplifiers (100 watts or more) in almost all audiophile parameters. So, to put it short, more power on paper does not really guarantee any sonic improvements. If you are upgrading from the SAME brand/model low-powered amp to a high powered amp, u might benefit... but that again, may not be entirely due to the increase in power alone, may be due to the use of high quality components and better implementation aspects in the higher models.

No... improvement in sound stage is not the same as the perceived increase in volume...

Audition and decide.. Dont go by reviews alone...

 

[Phew]

TLDR; What do I expect from upgrading my 45W(Marantz PM6007) amp to a 100W amp [other than the loudness] with my 89 dB rated speakers(Wharfedale Diamond 12.3) which can take an amplifier up to 150W pc?

A new entry in your bank statement.

It will be easier for FM's to help if you can mention what you are missing/wanting in your setup that is making you look at changing the components.

 

[arj]

TLDR; What do I expect from upgrading my 45W(Marantz PM6007) amp to a 100W amp [other than the loudness] with my 89 dB rated speakers(Wharfedale Diamond 12.3) which can take an amplifier up to 150W pc?


Backstory:

I was able to audition a pair of 88 dB rated speaker recently. I had requested to audition the speakers with their 80W amp. I do not know the exact term to describe what I heard, but the sound seemed to be compressed between the speakers. It felt as if all the instruments were being played at the same spot and rest of the room was just air, the speakers were trying to scream but were unable to do so. The room had been acoustically treated. So I requested to audition the speakers with their Top of Line 200W amp (Way out of my budget). The speakers SANG and HOWWW!! The stage was spectacular and there were layers to the audio and the vocals brought the singer to life. I have already booked a 100W amp to replace my existing 45W amp. I wish to have wider sound stage. The amp that I have ordered is the O&B SS2150, after reading all the praises it received in the forum. My question to someone with experience is, how do amplifiers improve sound stage or is it just an illusion caused by added volume?

The soundstage is an illusion created by your ears/ Brain by a combination of the actual mastering of the album and how its reproduced in a room. the difference you heard might have been due to the quality of the power rather than the quantity ( since you have not mentioned the amps)

If you want a bigger stage , you need to first check if the recording does really have it and if so need to identify whats really holding it back currently rather than increasing the power of the amp

Of course you might get lucky and the amp really be the cause for the soundstage

 

[Analogous]

Looking for synergy between speakers and amps is a bit like arranged marriages.
This thread (and more online research) might help:

Wharfedale Diamond 12 Owner's Thread

Would the 12.2s work in a large room (16'x24')? Its working well in my 8 meter x 6 meter room with 4 meter ceilings, covering every inch of the room with ease, and with just a DA-9. Even better when I turn on my sub.

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Analogous]

These tips may help. Do keep in mind it’s this persons perspective.

 

[keith_correa]

My amplifier is a mere 33 watt amplifier and I have experienced it bettering more POWERFULL amplifiers (100 watts or more) in almost all audiophile parameters.

May I know which amplifier this is?

 

[rageisthan]

Audition and decide.. Dont go by reviews alone...

The problem with auditions is, we cannot have an audition in the room where we listen to using the chain we use. Auditions are more biased when to the particular room and chain that is being used.

A new entry in your bank statement.

It will be easier for FM's to help if you can mention what you are missing/wanting in your setup that is making you look at changing the components.

I am looking for better sound imaging, I prefer a balanced sound signature with crisp bass. I hardly watch movies on my stereo speakers. I got the itch to upgrade after listening to Bose 300(soundbar). I was listening to the song "Mor Bani Thanghat Kare" from the movie "RAMLEELA" and I could hear the sound of a particular instrument very close to my ear as if they were being played right in the room. The sound bar lacked layering and stage but the song was able to hug me (Idk how they achieved surround in a 2 channel system). So if a soundbar is able to do it, probably my system should be able to one up it.

Of course you might get lucky and the amp really be the cause for the soundstage

I surely hope this is the case.

 

[Phew]

I am looking for better sound imaging, I prefer a balanced sound signature with crisp bass. I hardly watch movies on my stereo speakers. I got the itch to upgrade after listening to Bose 300(soundbar). I was listening to the song "Mor Bani Thanghat Kare" from the movie "RAMLEELA" and I could hear the sound of a particular instrument very close to my ear as if they were being played right in the room. The sound bar lacked layering and stage but the song was able to hug me (Idk how they achieved surround in a 2 channel system). So if a soundbar is able to do it, probably my system should be able to one up it.

Play around with the placement of the speakers and see where you can find a defined image. What is the entire chain also makes a difference to the Soundstage and depth, one component alone won't do the job.
As for how did the bose do the surround magic is best known to them, since the bose 300 has 2 front firing and 2 side firing drivers, the ones on the side might be the ones responsible for that instrument sounding close to your ear and the song hugging you. Soundbars are tuned keeping in mind special effects, dialogues, immersive experience hence a lot of wizardry is involved.
If that's what you are looking for then its better to stick to the soundbar as that's not gonna happen in a 2 channel setup.

A 4x4 can go off road does it imply the sedan has to one up it?

 

[chander]

There are 2 things that I believe the musicality you are seeking depends upon & as other FMs mentioned; to summarise -
1 - Power an amplifier provides and the quality of power it provides.
2 - The synergy between your system.

On point#1 - O&B should be able to provide that power, no doubt, there are enough FMs here who have gone that route and appreciate the amplifier & quality of power. So I think for #1 you "SHOULD" be fine. Here is an example - https://www.hifivision.com/threads/ss2150-by-o-b-audio-my-experience.88179/#post-1028352 and another in post#19 - https://www.hifivision.com/threads/does-adding-a-power-amp-will-make-difference.92064/
On point#2 - This is where I believe most audiophiles spend a lot of their time & energy, to try and find equipments that compliment each other to achieve the sound they like. This is "mostly" by auditioning & a fair bit of trial & error & the elephant in the room - "THE ROOM". There is no real substitute to this I guess. Yes I am not a big fan of the audition rooms either, but you do get an idea - if not confirmation - on the sound signature of a certain product. In this regard I guess you will have to see if O&B is able to be ONE with your system.

**Another interesting choice could be a subwoofer, a sub can have an impact on the sound, that is "rarely" achieved by other means. So maybe, you can explore that route if you have an option.

best of luck!

 

[Miany]

May I know which amplifier this is?

Sugden Masterclass IA-4

The problem with auditions is, we cannot have an audition in the room where we listen to using the chain we use. Auditions are more biased when to the particular room and chain that is being used.

Agree.. But it can serve as a good starting point atleast...

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

Some speakers come alive at higher volumes and sound confined at lower volumes. So was the listening done at the same volume, on the same speakers, with the same track on both the amplifiers. If it was, and if there was a very discernable difference between 80 w and 200 w, then I have to believe the 200 Watts must be of much superior quality and not only the quantity. But somehow I find that difficult to believe, if both are from the same brand.

Or your dealer could have done something back hand by inverting the polarity while swapping out the amps to convince you to buy the bigger, more expensive amplifier. But you will only get definitive answers, when you share what exactly were the speakers and amps used.

 

[kanna.sridharan]

From my little experience, I've come to learn that most floor standing speakers mainly require space around them to perform well, especially the rear. Objects placed in between the speakers also tend to affect the bass and overall performance. Now coming to your requirement of an amplifier, don't go by specs or power rating alone. The Marantz's 40W is no comparison to a Naim's 40W, since I've had a Naim earlier, I've heard them along with a Marantz and a Cambridge Audio 80W amplifier and they couldn't match the way power was delivered from the Naim. This is just an example I'm trying to give you from what I've heard. Quality of the amp is more important than the power output it can deliver.
The amp you have ordered is a power amp and not an Integrated amp, I hope you are aware that you require a matching pre-amp.
Before you swap amps, I would suggest you play around with your speaker position, pull them away from your wall, try to position yourself in the equi-triangle of the speakers, getting them on-axis or off-axis would improve image or stage width. Move your speakers and you may find what you are missing. Last of all, add a sub, you won't believe the magic it adds to your music.

Just my thoughts, it may differ for you. Good luck with your search, don't forget to enjoy your music.

Cheers

 

[rageisthan]

Some speakers come alive at higher volumes and sound confined at lower volumes. So was the listening done at the same volume, on the same speakers, with the same track on both the amplifiers. If it was, and if there was a very discernable difference between 80 w and 200 w, then I have to believe the 200 Watts must be of much superior quality and not only the quantity. But somehow I find that difficult to believe, if both are from the same brand.

Or your dealer could have done something back hand by inverting the polarity while swapping out the amps to convince you to buy the bigger, more expensive amplifier. But you will only get definitive answers, when you share what exactly were the speakers and amps used.

Th listening was done at almost the same levels (This is just by judgement and not accurate measurements ) . The reason I do not wish to take the name of the manufacturers (There was no dealer involved.) is, I do not wish to taint their name. I am a novice when it comes to understanding the intricacies of the sounds produced. They take pride in using the best components in both the amplifiers and the amps did show that. Their speakers too used top of the line components as per them. As you said, it might have been a quality over quantity issue.

I hope you are aware that you require a matching pre-amp

I have read the term "MATCHING" a lot of times. Please elaborate what exactly does it mean, if its not a burden. "Matching tubes, matching pre-amp." How do these things work? I have a CHI-FI entry level tube pre-amp and it works very well with the Marantz.

 

[kanna.sridharan]

Th listening was done at almost the same levels (This is just by judgement and not accurate measurements ) . The reason I do not wish to take the name of the manufacturers (There was no dealer involved.) is, I do not wish to taint their name. I am a novice when it comes to understanding the intricacies of the sounds produced. They take pride in using the best components in both the amplifiers and the amps did show that. Their speakers too used top of the line components as per them. As you said, it might have been a quality over quantity issue.



I have read the term "MATCHING" a lot of times. Please elaborate what exactly does it mean, if its not a burden. "Matching tubes, matching pre-amp." How do these things work? I have a CHI-FI entry level tube pre-amp and it works very well with the Marantz.

source is from the Audiogon Discussion forum - "When matching preamps to power amps, a general rule of thumb is for the load (amp) input impedance to be at least 10 times higher than the source (preamp) output impedance to provide a suitably flat frequency response. Many prefer using a minimum ratio closer to 20 to 1, or having an amp with input impedance 20 times or more greater than the preamp output impedance."

I don't have any personal experience in this topic, people using Pre & Power setups, would be of greater help here.

 

[Analogous]

I have read the term "MATCHING" a lot of times. Please elaborate what exactly does it mean, if its not a burden. "Matching tubes, matching pre-amp." How do these things work? I have a CHI-FI entry level tube pre-amp and it works very well with the Marantz.

The “match making” analogy in arranged marriages still applies to an extent here.This is not to imply self selection is better or worse.
Measurement and matching of electrical and mechanical properties of components is a starting point but no guarantee that the results will please you.
Your original question about recommending amplifiers for your chosen speaker may not bring you the desired result as there are many more variables (other than the amplifier selection) that need to be considered. It may be good to revisit your original premise and question
Once you know your speakers (ohms, sensitivity) you can calculate the amount of power (in watts) needed for selecting the amplifier. But this is just the beginning….
So in no particular order here are some factors that matter. I am sure you would have considered some or all or more of these:
Your room acoustics…
Your preferred music type, generes
Your sources of music playback and the quality of recordings
Speaker placement
Your ability to listen and understand the characteristics of the sound you are hearing
Your susceptibility to peer pressure and peer approval
Your budget and depth of personal commitment/obsession with this pursuit

While it’s not easy, auditioning different (power matched, different topologies) amps with your speakers in your room, trusting your ears and feelings is the best way. The other way is to spend time listening to others’ set ups (forum members, dealer listening rooms) to help you decide. So the question IMO is more complicated than “which amp…”

As most FM here will attest, all this is not easy and the quest can be endless. But that’s part of the fun. Hope you have a wonderful journey ahead.
TBC by others

 

[rwnano]

Weight of the Amp is a good measure of its quality - since it implies a good power supply internally. FYI, OP

 

[jaiwant_alex]

Your room acoustics…
Your preferred music type, generes
Your sources of music playback and the quality of recordings
Speaker placement
Your ability to listen and understand the characteristics of the sound you are hearing
Your susceptibility to peer pressure and peer approval
Your budget and depth of personal commitment/obsession with this pursuit

This is a great list, specially the last 3 . On listening and understanding the characteristics of sound, I confess to not having much of a clue about the jargon and colourful adjectives used to describe sound. I guess that comes with time and with the experience of hearing a wide range of equipment, which I've not really done. This is where the opinions of others and forums like this are so helpful.

 

[rageisthan]

Weight of the Amp is a good measure of its quality - since it implies a good power supply internally. FYI, OP

Won't the weight of Heat sink exceed the weight of the power supply?