Hindustani Classical Music
- Thread starter sumeetbagade
- Start date
I appreciate new generation liking Indian Classical and Appreciate more who try to learn it. I read Pt. Bhimsen Joshi after learning did riyaz for 4/5 years then came on stage to perform. But times have changed. Expecting someone to give this much time is too much. There is commercial aspect also when everyone is after money new artists have few options but to perform in front of foreign audience, make fusion music, make 'popular' music, sing for advertisements or make music for advertisements etc. just to survive.
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How important is the 'voice' of an artist ? Should it's appreciation precede mastery of raga or performance ? I heard Pushkar Lele on a channel I think he has good voice, but I am not seeing him perform more often.
~~
How important is the 'voice' of an artist ? Should it's appreciation precede mastery of raga or performance ? I heard Pushkar Lele on a channel I think he has good voice, but I am not seeing him perform more often.
It is a question of relevance of the thread. This thread is very relevant, there is no doubt. I am just waiting to see how many people actually participate and read this thread. As of now it has 288 eyeballs, and just a few participants.
Basically there are three streams currently running - Western Classical, Carnatic, and Hindustani. I will make all of them sticky. I may also also have to merge a few threads as I came across some small threads which discuss the same topics. I will work on it during the weekend.
Cheers
please name the CD, Vinyl.....
try these and u will be hooked onto it for life...
1. GOVIND DAMODAR MADHAVETI or THE VERY BEST OF PANDIT JASRAJ.
As Ramanujam pointed out, close ur eyes while listening and these bhajans will transport you straight to the ghats of Varanasi.....
2. VOICE OF INDIA - RASHID KHAN (RAAG MALKAUNS)
try listening to it at night as its a night raag..... exceptional artistry and good recording on TIMES MUSIC.
Quite a few interesting posts.
Sumeet,
That conversation between Einstein and Rabindranath on music is a gem. I have read it quite a few times before. Recently (actually last week) I read it again, because a local magazine has asked me to write an article based on that conversation. I hope I find the time to write the article, I want to do it. This will come out in an issue of the magazine to commemorate the 150 years of Rabindranath Tagore.
Ramanujam,
Very nicely written and it conveys. Your prose flows like poetry. I heard a DD interview after Bismillah Khan got the Bharatratna award. There the interviewer asked him if there were any unfufilled dreams or wishes for the Ustad (he was already around 90, I guess), and he replied, "Yeah, only if I could play more in tune ...". (That obviously is an approximate translation.) I had tears in my eyes after hearing that.
Ajay and Hiten,
Musicians live in a socio-economic-political world. For many hundred years, in North India, Badshahs, Maharajas and even Zaminders (especially in Bengal) patronized the musicians. Our Guruji Ustad Dabir Khan used to get a long term financial help from the Government of India because he was the only surviving descendent of the Great Miyan Tansen. But generally, these days, there is very miniscule amount of help or patronage for musicians. Musicians these days have to understand marketing and business, otherwise they will simply die. I still remember Pandit Nanku Maharaj who used to come to our household to provide tabla accompaniment with my eldest sister. Nanku-ji was very well known at the time and was the son-in-law of the famous Pandit Kantthe Maharaj and brother-in-law of Pandit Kishen Maharaj of Banaras. Nanku-ji used to play in many concerts with famous artistes, and the organisers never paid him in time or the amount they promised. My father used to go and fight with the organisers to get the payment for Nankuji and then he himself went to Nakuji's place to hand over the meager amount he used to charge. I remember a few times in my childhood I accompanied my father to his place when Nanku-ji would be almost in tears on receiving the money and would keep on repeatedly thanking my father. That sort of simple-mindedness would not work in today's world. Those people generally knew only music and nothing else. I consider myself very fortunate to have come across such saint-like people very early in my life.
These days, I know many young musicians (some really good, and some not so good) are going to the West and performing (even my tabla player is currently touring parts of Europe). This has become a significant source of income for many musicians. My tabla player makes 3 to 4 trips to Japan, South Africa, Australia, Europe and US in a year. He is an young and very promising tabla player (a student of Pandit Anindo Chatterjee) and is improving everyday. These artistes (before they get high profile stature in India) would not get enough money through performance in India, and so they have to make the foreign trips. If I took up music as profession, I also had to make these foreign trips, just to survive, because firstly there are not as many music conferences these days, and the competition is immense to get a concert slot, and even then unless you have established yourself, the fees are quite nominal, so the basic source of income is through giving lessons.
Now, it is upto the artistes to practice hard and bring up their level of performance. Good quality is never achievable through short-cuts in Indian Classical music. It takes years to cultivate the voice, the control of breath, the appropriate use (or lack of use, depending on the school) of the nasal registers etc etc. To master the ragas is another matter. There is a common saying in North Indian classical circles: You are nobody in this business before you have done 'riyaaz' for at least 20 years.
For people like Anoushka and Amaan Ali, it's a little different. They are daughter and son of musicians of the highest degree and fame. There is an easier market for them everywhere. They go abroad because there is appreciable following for them there, I'd guess.
How the Western world is receiving this music is a completely different discussion, but I know quite well that part because I lived in the West for many years and still visit the West for my scientific purposes.
Regards.
Sumeet,
That conversation between Einstein and Rabindranath on music is a gem. I have read it quite a few times before. Recently (actually last week) I read it again, because a local magazine has asked me to write an article based on that conversation. I hope I find the time to write the article, I want to do it. This will come out in an issue of the magazine to commemorate the 150 years of Rabindranath Tagore.
Ramanujam,
Very nicely written and it conveys. Your prose flows like poetry. I heard a DD interview after Bismillah Khan got the Bharatratna award. There the interviewer asked him if there were any unfufilled dreams or wishes for the Ustad (he was already around 90, I guess), and he replied, "Yeah, only if I could play more in tune ...". (That obviously is an approximate translation.) I had tears in my eyes after hearing that.
Ajay and Hiten,
Musicians live in a socio-economic-political world. For many hundred years, in North India, Badshahs, Maharajas and even Zaminders (especially in Bengal) patronized the musicians. Our Guruji Ustad Dabir Khan used to get a long term financial help from the Government of India because he was the only surviving descendent of the Great Miyan Tansen. But generally, these days, there is very miniscule amount of help or patronage for musicians. Musicians these days have to understand marketing and business, otherwise they will simply die. I still remember Pandit Nanku Maharaj who used to come to our household to provide tabla accompaniment with my eldest sister. Nanku-ji was very well known at the time and was the son-in-law of the famous Pandit Kantthe Maharaj and brother-in-law of Pandit Kishen Maharaj of Banaras. Nanku-ji used to play in many concerts with famous artistes, and the organisers never paid him in time or the amount they promised. My father used to go and fight with the organisers to get the payment for Nankuji and then he himself went to Nakuji's place to hand over the meager amount he used to charge. I remember a few times in my childhood I accompanied my father to his place when Nanku-ji would be almost in tears on receiving the money and would keep on repeatedly thanking my father. That sort of simple-mindedness would not work in today's world. Those people generally knew only music and nothing else. I consider myself very fortunate to have come across such saint-like people very early in my life.
These days, I know many young musicians (some really good, and some not so good) are going to the West and performing (even my tabla player is currently touring parts of Europe). This has become a significant source of income for many musicians. My tabla player makes 3 to 4 trips to Japan, South Africa, Australia, Europe and US in a year. He is an young and very promising tabla player (a student of Pandit Anindo Chatterjee) and is improving everyday. These artistes (before they get high profile stature in India) would not get enough money through performance in India, and so they have to make the foreign trips. If I took up music as profession, I also had to make these foreign trips, just to survive, because firstly there are not as many music conferences these days, and the competition is immense to get a concert slot, and even then unless you have established yourself, the fees are quite nominal, so the basic source of income is through giving lessons.
Now, it is upto the artistes to practice hard and bring up their level of performance. Good quality is never achievable through short-cuts in Indian Classical music. It takes years to cultivate the voice, the control of breath, the appropriate use (or lack of use, depending on the school) of the nasal registers etc etc. To master the ragas is another matter. There is a common saying in North Indian classical circles: You are nobody in this business before you have done 'riyaaz' for at least 20 years.
For people like Anoushka and Amaan Ali, it's a little different. They are daughter and son of musicians of the highest degree and fame. There is an easier market for them everywhere. They go abroad because there is appreciable following for them there, I'd guess.
How the Western world is receiving this music is a completely different discussion, but I know quite well that part because I lived in the West for many years and still visit the West for my scientific purposes.
Regards.
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Posting this magical piece once again, for those of u who might have missed it...
Very rare video of LATA DIDI recorded when she was just about sixteen - seventeen....
I had seen this video much earlier, with a private collector here in Pune, who claimed to have ALL Lata Mangeshkar songs on either of his huge shellac, EP, LP, Reel-to-Reel, cassette tape, CD, MP3 collection.
It was actually C.Ramchandra, who insisted on recording this video. This can be confirmed by the last 2 seconds of this video where u see him jump in the frame, sitting in front of didi (seen by me in the video i saw with the collector, but has been deleted in this youtube video).
RAAG - MALKAUNS
ARTIST - LATA MANGESHKAR
SARANGI - PT RAM NARAYAN
TABLA - SHRIPAD NAGESHKAR (unconfirmed).
YouTube - Lata Live Malkauns
A HUGE LOSS FOR HINDUSTANI CLASSICAL MUSIC TURNED OUT TO BE THE SINGLE BIGGEST GAIN FOR THE HINDI FILM MUSIC INDUSTRY......
SHE WAS A ONE-WOMAN INDUSTRY FOR ALMOST FIVE DECADES.....
Very rare video of LATA DIDI recorded when she was just about sixteen - seventeen....
I had seen this video much earlier, with a private collector here in Pune, who claimed to have ALL Lata Mangeshkar songs on either of his huge shellac, EP, LP, Reel-to-Reel, cassette tape, CD, MP3 collection.
It was actually C.Ramchandra, who insisted on recording this video. This can be confirmed by the last 2 seconds of this video where u see him jump in the frame, sitting in front of didi (seen by me in the video i saw with the collector, but has been deleted in this youtube video).
RAAG - MALKAUNS
ARTIST - LATA MANGESHKAR
SARANGI - PT RAM NARAYAN
TABLA - SHRIPAD NAGESHKAR (unconfirmed).
YouTube - Lata Live Malkauns
A HUGE LOSS FOR HINDUSTANI CLASSICAL MUSIC TURNED OUT TO BE THE SINGLE BIGGEST GAIN FOR THE HINDI FILM MUSIC INDUSTRY......
SHE WAS A ONE-WOMAN INDUSTRY FOR ALMOST FIVE DECADES.....
Multiply the bliss by understanding the words....
GOVIND DAMODAR MADHAVETI
SINGER - PANDIT JASRAJ
CD - GOVIND DAMODAR MADHAVETI or THE VERY BEST OF PANDIT JASRAJ.
STOTRA - RISHI BILVAMANGAL
In this stotra, Rishi Bilvamangal reasons with his tongue to recite the name of Krishna
Kararavinde na padaravindam
Mukharavinde viniveshayantam
Vatasya patrasya pute shayanam
Balam Mukundam manasa smarami
I remember the infant Mukunda, Who sleeps inside a hollow Banyan leaf and Who by His lotus-hands, is putting His lotus-feet in His lotus-mouth.
Shri Krishna govinda hare murare
he natha narayana vasudeva
jihve pibasvamritam etad eva
govinda damodara madhaveti
Shri Krishna! Govinda! Hari! Murari! O Lord, Narayana, Vasudeva! O tongue, please drink only this nectarGovinda, Damodara, Madhava!.
vikretukama kila gopa-kanya
murari-padarpita-chitta-vrittih
dadhyadikam mohavashad avocad
govinda damodara madhaveti
Though desiring to sell milk, dahi, butter, etc., the mind of a young gopi was so absorbed in the lotus feet of Krishna that instead of calling out Milk for sale, she bewilderedly said, Govinda!, Damodara!, and Madhava!.
grihe grihe gopa-vadhu-kadambah
sarve militva samavaya-yoge
punyani namani pathanti nityam
govinda damodara madhaveti
In house after house, groups of cowherd ladies gather on various occasions, and together they always chant the transcendental names of KrishnaGovinda, Damodara, and Madhava.
sukham shayana nilaye nije pi
namani vishnoh pravadanti martyah
te nishcitam tanmayatam vrajanti
govinda damodara madhaveti
Even the ordinary mortals comfortably seated at home who chant the names of Vishnu, Govinda, Damodara, and Madhava, certainly attain (at least) the liberation of having a form similar to that of the Lord.
jihve sadaiva bhaja sundarani
namani krishnasya manoharani
samasta-bhaktarti-vinashanani
govinda damodara madhaveti
O my tongue, just always worship these beautiful, enchanting names of Krishna, Govinda, Damodara, and Madhava, which destroy all the obstacles of the devotees.
sukhavasane tv idam eva saram
duhkhavasane tv idam eva geyam
dehavasane tv idam eva japyam
govinda damodara madhaveti
This indeed is the essence (found) upon ceasing the affairs of mundane happiness. And this too is to be sung after the cessation of all sufferings. This alone is to be chanted at the time of death of ones material bodyGovinda, Damodara, Madhava!
shri krishna radhavara gokulesha
gopala govardhana-natha vishno
jihve pibasvamritam etad eva
govinda damodara madhaveti
O tongue, drink only this nectar (of the names), Shri Krishna, dearmost of Shrimati Radharani, Lord of Gokula, Gopala, Lord of Govardhana, Vishnu, Govinda, Damodara, and Madhava.
sivasarjun
Active Member
Every artist has to make this choice.Do you cater to an audience who has no appreciation of the finer aspects but who can guarantee you good money and fame(undeserved) or do you sing for a few connoisseurs.
I personally think that only the second kind can be called artists.
And the saddest thing is that the first kind of music is used primarily as background music.Santoor or sarod playing softly in the background as you wait for your order to arrive sipping a beer.MUSIC AS WALLPAPER.
Real art demands undivided attention and complete commitment from the listener.A real artist should demand that from the audience.
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ajay124
Well-Known Member
A real artist would want the audience to rise up to his level. A commercial artist would stoop down to the level of the audience. Commercial artists win fame,fortune and awards,but the audience is a fickle mistress.It does not follow music.It follows trends.And when the trend is over, trendy music fades into obscurity.The real artist may live in obscurity during his lifetime, but his music fares better in the long run. The Van Gogh Syndrome!
sivasarjun
I completely agree with you.Once an artist starts pandering to the audience,he or she is destined to create, what you aptly called ' wallpaper music '. Music which is to be bought and used like a trophy.As a badge of 'good taste'.
A sequence from Satyajit Ray's Jalsaghar. Biswambhar Roy, the connoisseur engrossed in the music, while Mahim Ganguly, the 'pretender' is engrossed in picking his nose. As music becomes 'democratised' and filters down to the masses, it will encounter both connoisseur's and nose pickers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3HsOuWuc4g
sivasarjun
I completely agree with you.Once an artist starts pandering to the audience,he or she is destined to create, what you aptly called ' wallpaper music '. Music which is to be bought and used like a trophy.As a badge of 'good taste'.
A sequence from Satyajit Ray's Jalsaghar. Biswambhar Roy, the connoisseur engrossed in the music, while Mahim Ganguly, the 'pretender' is engrossed in picking his nose. As music becomes 'democratised' and filters down to the masses, it will encounter both connoisseur's and nose pickers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3HsOuWuc4g
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ajay124
Well-Known Member
"I still remember Pandit Nanku Maharaj who used to come to our household to provide tabla accompaniment with my eldest sister. Nanku-ji was very well known at the time and was the son-in-law of the famous Pandit Kantthe Maharaj and brother-in-law of Pandit Kishen Maharaj of Banaras. Nanku-ji used to play in many concerts with famous artistes, and the organisers never paid him in time or the amount they promised. My father used to go and fight with the organisers to get the payment for Nankuji and then he himself went to Nakuji's place to hand over the meager amount he used to charge. I remember a few times in my childhood I accompanied my father to his place when Nanku-ji would be almost in tears on receiving the money and would keep on repeatedly thanking my father. That sort of simple-mindedness would not work in today's world. Those people generally knew only music and nothing else. I consider myself very fortunate to have come across such saint-like people very early in my life."
Great post Asit! Real 'flesh and blood' prose. Your portrait of Nanku-ji is very real.
Great post Asit! Real 'flesh and blood' prose. Your portrait of Nanku-ji is very real.
So artists of Indian classical music should stick to purest form of music no matter what and should only perform to knowledgeable appreciative listeners. So in a way we are asking him/her to do lots of sacrifices. Imagine an artist who has dedicated his/her life to classical music, has no money, what happens to their children/family? Why to force an artist to make a decision of having money/fame or highly appreciative listener ? Why can't they have both ? Money and fame is not actually bad (Unless one is greedy), he/she can use it to educate future generation or make the form popularize. (If one want's it to be popularized so that this art does not die). Aren't we insulting an artist's intelligence that he can not distinguish between real listener and fake ones.
.
And what happens to an artist who dedicated his life to the music...
.. his grave is dug up and his brain is studied :sad:
And what happens to an artist who dedicated his life to the music...
.. his grave is dug up and his brain is studied :sad:
>>>
My favourite vocalists ( very unbalanced I am sure as I haven't had the opportunity to listen to most of the titans, which I want to rectify soon) :
Ustad Fayyaz Khan (Agra-Atrauli Gharana)
Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan ( Patiala)
Pandit Bhimsen Joshi (Kirana Gharana)
Pandit DV Paluskar ( Gwalior Gharana?)
Ustad Amir Khan ( Indore Gharana)
Pandit Mallikarjun Mansur (Jaipur Gharana)
Regards
My favourite vocalists ( very unbalanced I am sure as I haven't had the opportunity to listen to most of the titans, which I want to rectify soon) :
Ustad Fayyaz Khan (Agra-Atrauli Gharana)
Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan ( Patiala)
Pandit Bhimsen Joshi (Kirana Gharana)
Pandit DV Paluskar ( Gwalior Gharana?)
Ustad Amir Khan ( Indore Gharana)
Pandit Mallikarjun Mansur (Jaipur Gharana)
Regards
Two lesser known artists.
Pt. Kaivalyakumar Gurav
YouTube - PT.KAIVALYAKUMAR GURAV-bhajan-ek sur charachar
Archana Kanhere : http://res1.esnips.com/doc/2f0f6c56-cf7b-417d-a9d6-77b9bee02e93/He-Surano-Chandra-Wha-Archana-Kanhere
^ Even non marathis will like this.
Pt. Kaivalyakumar Gurav
YouTube - PT.KAIVALYAKUMAR GURAV-bhajan-ek sur charachar
Archana Kanhere : http://res1.esnips.com/doc/2f0f6c56-cf7b-417d-a9d6-77b9bee02e93/He-Surano-Chandra-Wha-Archana-Kanhere
^ Even non marathis will like this.
sivasarjun
Active Member
Substitute Bhimsen Joshij with Smt Gangubai Hangal,Add Kesarbai and it exactly matches my all time favourite list as well.
Glad to find somebody whose tastes are similar to mine.
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Please post their best work (according to u), both on a CD or a VINYL, against the list of artists that you have mentioned.
Ustad Fayyaz Khan (Agra-Atrauli Gharana)
Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan ( Patiala)
Pandit Bhimsen Joshi (Kirana Gharana)
Pandit DV Paluskar ( Gwalior Gharana?)
Ustad Amir Khan ( Indore Gharana)
Pandit Mallikarjun Mansur (Jaipur Gharana)
Smt Gangubai Hanagal (Kirana Gharana)
Smt Kesarbai Kerkar (Jaipur Atrauli Gharana ????)
Everybody participate in the same please....
Post only for those artist / artists whom you have heard personally and enjoyed.....
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