Home Theater for a moviebuff with a limited budget of 99K

[marsilians]

Couple things Bhaskie,

Make sure that you center is timbre matched to the L/R speakers as the soundstage will be uniform for the fronts. This means not only the manufacturer, but the drivers should be from the same family as your L/R.

You might see instances wherein people may have a totally different center than the L/R. This is possible but is hard to achieve for tonality and soundstage.

Also which subs are you considereing from Velodyne? The ELS is a musical sub (meaning you might not get the desired output for HT). Depends on your preference. my vote would be Velodyne as they make great subs.

With all the auditioning over the past month, I think I am inclined to something like this:

Fronts - Dali Ikon 5/2 (not heard these but am interested - Monitor Audio SIlver RS 6, Usher X718)
Rears - Dali Lektor 1 (will buy these later)
Center - depends on the fronts (will buy it later as well)
Sub - EPOS ELS, Velodyne, Dali Sub (heard this only, liked the tight bass)
AVR - Denon (1909 or higher) - should be able to drive the fronts well for music listening (long sessions, around 6 hrs a day)

Based on more auditions this month, I will get a better idea on what I want! Whoa!

Cheers!
Bhaskie

 

[bhaskie]

Couple things Bhaskie,

Make sure that you center is timbre matched to the L/R speakers as the soundstage will be uniform for the fronts. This means not only the manufacturer, but the drivers should be from the same family as your L/R.

absolutely.. thats why i said i would get them only after finalizing the fronts. I have auditioned the Dali center speakers but nothing else till now.

You might see instances wherein people may have a totally different center than the L/R. This is possible but is hard to achieve for tonality and soundstage.

Also which subs are you considereing from Velodyne? The ELS is a musical sub (meaning you might not get the desired output for HT). Depends on your preference. my vote would be Velodyne as they make great subs.

hmm thats a good point. I am getting the sub mainly for movies, since my usage is gonna be a movie a day. For music, I am quite happy with the bass from a Floorstander like Dali Ikon 5/6. Since I listen to a lot of classical, I have been hunting around from FS, but I am totally open for a BS as well (if they sound good with classical). Though I have heard that Usher Be718 is really good with bass as well (being a BS), but unfortunately its out of my range (too expensive at 100K). I have tried out Quad 12L2 without a sub and didnt enjoy it as much as I enjoyed the Dali Ikon 6 without a sub.
I did try the Dali sub (around 35K i think) with the iKon 6 and it rocked the room several times. Dont have much experience with subs though!

What I am looking for in a sub is tight non-localised response. Any idea on Velodyne CHT10 10"?

Thanks!
Bhaskie

 

[venkatcr]

Bhaskie,

I am not going to add any confusion to your choices of speakers. I think you are going in the right direction.

But I certainly want you to audition the Yamaha 663 or 863. The 663 comes at about 39K, and the 863 at about 60K. I have listened to the 663 over the last few weeks many times, and I always come out mightily impressed with it for both music and movies. Yamahas were always good for movies, but their new AVRs sound surprisingly good for music also. I have heard the 663 with a variety of speakers - PSB Alphas, Q-Acoustics 1010i (Just fronts), EPOS BS. They sound surprisingly good even with Canton Movie CX60s which are very tiny speakers, hardly the size of two paperback novels stuck together.

I have ordered for a Yamaha 663 for a friend of mine and will be breaking it at home over the next two weeks. I shall see how it sounds with my Floorstanding Wharfedales.

Cheers

 

[bhaskie]

Bhaskie,

I am not going to add any confusion to your choices of speakers. I think you are going in the right direction.

But I certainly want you to audition the Yamaha 663 or 863. The 663 comes at about 39K, and the 863 at about 60K. I have listened to the 663 over the last few weeks many times, and I always come out mightily impressed with it for both music and movies. Yamahas were always good for movies, but their new AVRs sound surprisingly good for music also. I have heard the 663 with a variety of speakers - PSB Alphas, Q-Acoustics 1010i (Just fronts), EPOS BS. They sound surprisingly good even with Canton Movie CX60s which are very tiny speakers, hardly the size of two paperback novels stuck together.

I have ordered for a Yamaha 663 for a friend of mine and will be breaking it at home over the next two weeks. I shall see how it sounds with my Floorstanding Wharfedales.

Cheers

Venky! thanks! i got a few queries for you on the yammies

can you confirm these issues are actually issues with Yamaha V663 (found in coupla threads in avsforums etc.) and might cause problems?

- only 2 HDMI
- does not pass BTB/WTW (will this cause issues with PS3 gaming?)
- would not pass through cable DVR (don't understand this)
- lack of 1080p upscaling for 480i/p analogue video sources

RX-V863 has 2 more optical, one more HDMI, and does upscaling. but costs 20K more!

663 will give me a preamp out (not in denon 1909) and two sub woofer outs, but I am not really interested in these things.

What I really want from the AVR is the ability to upscale and upconvert my PC's HDMI (video) signal or VGA out to 720p (my LCD is 720p, will buy a plasma probably in a year or two). Since 1909 will do the upscaling/upconversion with the analog in (if i use the VGA instaed of the HDMI), I am tempted to get this one. However, nothing like an AVR which can upscale and upconvert my HDMI PC signal. But this feature is only present in AVR's > 100K

your thoughts?!

Cheers!
Bhaskie

 

[venkatcr]

can you confirm these issues are actually issues with Yamaha V663 (found in coupla threads in avsforums etc.) and might cause problems?

- only 2 HDMI

This is correct. The 663 has 2 INs and I out.

- does not pass BTB/WTW (will this cause issues with PS3 gaming?)

I am not sure about this.

- would not pass through cable DVR (don't understand this)

A DVR is a Digital Video Recorder. The 663 does have options to connect a DVR.

- lack of 1080p upscaling for 480i/p analogue video sources

Yes, the 663 does not upscale. It does upconversion and de-interlacing.

What I really want from the AVR is the ability to upscale and upconvert my PC's HDMI (video) signal or VGA out to 720p (my LCD is 720p, will buy a plasma probably in a year or two). Since 1909 will do the upscaling/upconversion with the analog in (if i use the VGA instead of the HDMI), I am tempted to get this one. However, nothing like an AVR which can upscale and upconvert my HDMI PC signal. But this feature is only present in AVR's > 100K

Frankly for anything less than a full 1080P screen, up-scaling does not hold much value. Up-conversion and de-interlacing is all you need, and this is done by most AVRs including the 663.

If you want to upscale PC based material, it may be better and less expensive to get a video card that has full up-scaling capabilities. You have to go a bit careful here, as I have ended up with three units all of which upscale to 1080P. So I have redundant up-scaling capabilities that I don't use at all.

Cheers

 

[thevortex]

Sound advice from Venkat as always. I agree.

If the PC is to act as a source it makes more sense to have something like a TV Tuner card there to help in the upscaling.

If recording is not one of the desired features then even some motherboards like the 780G chipset for AMD can do the job straight out of the box.

And if recording is not needed something like the Xonar HDAV 1.3 Deluxe makes a whole lot of sense. It takes care of HDMI Video as well as HD Audio.

 

[bhaskie]

Frankly for anything less than a full 1080P screen, up-scaling does not hold much value. Up-conversion and de-interlacing is all you need, and this is done by most AVRs including the 663.

If you want to upscale PC based material, it may be better and less expensive to get a video card that has full up-scaling capabilities. You have to go a bit careful here, as I have ended up with three units all of which upscale to 1080P. So I have redundant up-scaling capabilities that I don't use at all.

Cheers

Thanks for the responses Venkat! Really appreciate it!

You are right about the 720p upscaling thing, but I am gonna get rid of this LCD in a year and get a full HD plasma/LCD. And I really don't want to buy a new AVR for at least 3-5 yrs (at least that's the plan now ).
But after giving a lot of thought, I think it makes sense to get a $250-500 pci-express card to do all the video processing and upscaling and upconversion. In any case, even the faroudja chip in the denons (1909 and 2309) is quite average at best, so why compromise. I will get back once I check out a few graphics cards!

Cheers!

 

[bhaskie]

Sound advice from Venkat as always. I agree.

If the PC is to act as a source it makes more sense to have something like a TV Tuner card there to help in the upscaling.

If recording is not one of the desired features then even some motherboards like the 780G chipset for AMD can do the job straight out of the box.

And if recording is not needed something like the Xonar HDAV 1.3 Deluxe makes a whole lot of sense. It takes care of HDMI Video as well as HD Audio.

I already have an AMD 780G mobo (Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H) but without any pci-express as of now. It does most of the stuff pretty well for now! But I guess will need to add a pci-e card like ati radeon 3400/3600 sometime later.

Thanks!

 

[thevortex]

Bhaskie, the 780G chipset is what I am also using in my HTPC. Its got good onboard video and audio solutions. You dont need a display card for video purposes. It supports Full HD right out of the box.

At least not if you dont intend to play games on this machine. You only need a TV Tuner card if you are going to view/record TV through computer. A sound card would be a better addition if you are going to use this as a HTPC and if you want to get better audio quality than through your AVR.

 

[bhaskie]

Bhaskie, the 780G chipset is what I am also using in my HTPC. Its got good onboard video and audio solutions. You dont need a display card for video purposes. It supports Full HD right out of the box.

At least not if you dont intend to play games on this machine. You only need a TV Tuner card if you are going to view/record TV through computer. A sound card would be a better addition if you are going to use this as a HTPC and if you want to get better audio quality than through your AVR.

I have this mobo -
GIGABYTE - Product - Motherboard - Overview - GA-MA78GM-S2H (rev.1.0)

Do you think a better sound card will help me? (since I am using HDMI audio passthrough anyway).

Here's the ALC889A sound chipset's features -

ALC889A with DTS Connect Enables a Superior Audio Experience

Excellent Audio Performance
High-performance DAC (Digital-Analog Converter) with 106 dB Signal-to-Noise ratio playback quality, designed especially for Windows Vista Premium PCs.

Blu-ray/HD DVD Full Rate Audio Support
The ALC889A enables high quality Full Rate Lossless Audio for content protected media and support for both Blu-ray and HD DVD formats for an exhilarating home theater entertainment experience.

7.1+2 Channel High Definition Output
The ALC889A provides support for 7.1 sound playback, plus 2 channels of independent stereo output (multiple streaming) through the front panel stereo outputs.


I am planning to get a blu-ray player (read-only) for $100 and play blu-ray discs through HDMI out of this mobo. Hence the concern of getting something like a radeon HD 3000 series pci-e graphics card. I will be more than happy if the 780G and ALC889A can do all the work on their own!

Cheers!
Bhaskie

 

[thevortex]

Bhaskie,

I use the same motherboard - it is quite a famous one for HTPC usage! Plus it is economical just like the processor it powers - AMD

The Xonar D2X is the soundcard I use and I can tell you that my listening experience has taken on a different dimension. Especially when I switch on 7.1 Channel Analogue input mode on my receiver. The card upsamples to 192 Khz and it is bliss. My contention is that if I experience such audible difference with my modest pair of bookshelves I am sure that with better speakers the difference would become even more apparent.

About Blu Ray devices, there are drives out there for the PC which would read Blu Ray discs. I believe you can get one from around the Rs. 10000 range. As it is I dont rely on the DVD combo drive that comes with the HTPC. These are not quality devices and what I do is rip music or movies right out to the hard disk and play from there. This avoids even the miniscule noise created when the disc is being read by the drive. I am not sure if you can do the same with Blu Ray movies/music. If you can check that up that would be best.

Something like the Xonar HDAV 1.3 deluxe should be able to handle all your BD needs - music/movies. Unless you play games there should be no need to add a display card to your 780G chipset mobo. It is quite capable of delivering a Full HD performance on its own.

 

[thevortex]

And I needed to add that the onboard sound is nothing compared to the quality you get with a dedicated soundcard such as the ASUS Xonar. It blows away the onboard sound without much ado.

Plus the 7.1 channel analogue output capability of the soundcar is really a strength. I really see no reason to invest in a CD player with this sort of quality and convenience.

 

[bhaskie]

Bhaskie,

I use the same motherboard - it is quite a famous one for HTPC usage! Plus it is economical just like the processor it powers - AMD

The Xonar D2X is the soundcard I use and I can tell you that my listening experience has taken on a different dimension. Especially when I switch on 7.1 Channel Analogue input mode on my receiver. The card upsamples to 192 Khz and it is bliss. My contention is that if I experience such audible difference with my modest pair of bookshelves I am sure that with better speakers the difference would become even more apparent.

About Blu Ray devices, there are drives out there for the PC which would read Blu Ray discs. I believe you can get one from around the Rs. 10000 range. As it is I dont rely on the DVD combo drive that comes with the HTPC. These are not quality devices and what I do is rip music or movies right out to the hard disk and play from there. This avoids even the miniscule noise created when the disc is being read by the drive. I am not sure if you can do the same with Blu Ray movies/music. If you can check that up that would be best.

Something like the Xonar HDAV 1.3 deluxe should be able to handle all your BD needs - music/movies. Unless you play games there should be no need to add a display card to your 780G chipset mobo. It is quite capable of delivering a Full HD performance on its own.

Great! I got this mobo a year back and it is really great VFM. Actually my plan was to passthrough sound via the HDMI out to a Denon 1909 AVR into Dali Ikon 2 bookshelves. This way I will be not using the ALC889A from the mobo and instaed let the AVR do the decoding. What do you think about this?
OTOH, if i get the xonar d2x card, what benefit will it give me over the AVR? Can i then get a cheaper AVR instaed of the Denon 1909?

I am aware of the blu-ray drives. I am getting a SATA blu-ray read-only player for $100 from US next month (Rs. 5K is a great price).

Yes, the way to go is to rip the blu-ray file from the disc (say around 25-40 gb), strip unnecessary data from it (there are apps to do that), get a size of around 15-25gigs, store that and play directly from hard disk. The blu-ray blank discs are way to expensive and you would rather buy a 500gigs/1TB SATA HDD and store the movies in them for playing. So its best to get the read-only player instaed of the RW ones (cost around 250-300$).

For now, I will probably get just the blu-ray player and use the mobo to play the movies through HDMI. If processing takes a toll or audio quality is screwed up (dont think passthough should do any screw up for that matter), I will get either a pci-e graphics card for dedicated video decoding and upscaling, and the xonar d2x for audio! What say?!

~bhaskie

 

[bhaskie]

And I needed to add that the onboard sound is nothing compared to the quality you get with a dedicated soundcard such as the ASUS Xonar. It blows away the onboard sound without much ado.

Plus the 7.1 channel analogue output capability of the soundcar is really a strength. I really see no reason to invest in a CD player with this sort of quality and convenience.

The Xonar D2X main chipset:
4-bit D-A Converter of Digital Sources: Burr-Brown PCM1796 *4 (123dB SNR, Max. 192kHz/24bit)
24-bit A-D Converter for Analog Inputs: Cirrus-Logic CS5381* 1 (120dB SNR, Max. 192kHz/24bit)


I am absolutely not gonna buy a CD player. What I am thinking of doing is get the HDMI audio passthough from the MoBo and decode the streams in a Denon 1909 AVR. Have you tried anything like this?

Thanks!
Bhaskie

 

[thevortex]

Bhaskie,

The Xonar D2x, to the best of my knowledge, cannot do a HDMI passthrough of audio/video signals from the PC to your receiver. It can only do so via an Optical/SPDIF (Coaxial) out. If you use the digital out you are going to be using the Receiver's DAC.

This card is unique of sorts because it also gives you 7.1 Analogue outs. If you do have a 7.1 channel analogue input in your receiver you can use this connection to achieve probably the best audio quality possible on your speakers. I believe the audio quality using the Analogue output out of the Xonar D2X will be comfortably better than that of the Denon 1909 receiver.

The strength of this card is its analogue output.

A card such as the Xonar HDAV 1.3 Deluxe will be able to satisfy your audio and video requirements without a need to add a separate display card.

Actually it is to be noted that your motherboard in itself is no slouch at all and is quite upto handling all video requirements. You will be saving some CPU cycles if you have a separate Audio card.

 

[bhaskie]

Venkat,

Thanks a lot for the responses.
On #2, I found out that the yammy 663 does not pass BTB/WTW according to HDMI specs. This might be an issue with gamers, but I am not really bothered.

I also found out that the quality of DACs in the 663 is much better than the 1909.

Moreover, the presence of pre-outs is important (for me), and 1909 again loses on this.

BTW, I am shocked to hear this in a forum: "663 was measured at under 40 watts into 7 channels". Instead of the 95W/channel! Do you think there is any truth in this?

I am planning to get Dali Ikon 6/2 for my fronts, so do you think there will be any issue with driving these with the yamaha?(In case you havent heard dali's through the Yamaha, any other speaker with similar specs?).

I am not even interested in routing the video through the AVR, all I need is audio (5 channel - for movies, and fronts for music). So upscaling etc. does not matter. The PC already does an amazing work of upscaling the video to my 720p display, so I will just bypass the AVR. Based on this, do you think I should get a 5.1 channel amp instead? (I dont need blu-ray decoding either in the AVR/amp since it will be done in the PC itself).
Any suggestions on this? I looked into Emotiva 7.1 channel amp for $500, but I cant get it anywhere in India.

Cheers!
Bhaskie

- only 2 HDMI

This is correct. The 663 has 2 INs and I out.

- does not pass BTB/WTW (will this cause issues with PS3 gaming?)

I am not sure about this.

- would not pass through cable DVR (don't understand this)

A DVR is a Digital Video Recorder. The 663 does have options to connect a DVR.

- lack of 1080p upscaling for 480i/p analogue video sources

Yes, the 663 does not upscale. It does upconversion and de-interlacing.



Frankly for anything less than a full 1080P screen, up-scaling does not hold much value. Up-conversion and de-interlacing is all you need, and this is done by most AVRs including the 663.

If you want to upscale PC based material, it may be better and less expensive to get a video card that has full up-scaling capabilities. You have to go a bit careful here, as I have ended up with three units all of which upscale to 1080P. So I have redundant up-scaling capabilities that I don't use at all.

Cheers

 

[thevortex]

Bhaskie, if you are looking at a HTPC to act as your source hub for all your entertainment, which I am sure you do, then it is very important to check if the amp you choose has a 5.1 or 7.1 channel analogue input facility.

The pre-outs are fine. But you will need the multichannel analogue input facility to connect your PC and enjoy the best possible sound and also bypass the DACs on the receiver itself.

I am not sure whether the Yamaha or the Denon has it. Can somebody confirm?

 

[venkatcr]

BTW, I am shocked to hear this in a forum: "663 was measured at under 40 watts into 7 channels". Instead of the 95W/channel! Do you think there is any truth in this?

I have read a lot of what I call 'Yamaha Bashers' proclaim extraordinary power figures. In my opinion, they are all silly. Companies such as Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon will not fudge their power figures. Over the last two weeks, thanks to Raghu of Decibel, I have heard the 663 driving varied speakers with ease. I have always asked him to reduce the volume. We have never gone beyond less than 1/3rd of the amp capacity.

I am ready to bet that if Yamaha says 95 watts per channel it is 95 watts if not more. People misuse the sensitivity and impedance figures to quote what they want.

I am planning to get Dali Ikon 6/2 for my fronts, so do you think there will be any issue with driving these with the yamaha?(In case you havent heard dali's through the Yamaha, any other speaker with similar specs?).

I have heard the Yamaha with the following speakers:

1. PSB Alpha B1s
2. PSB Image B25s
3. Q-Acoustic 1010i
4. Canton Floorstanders
5. Mission Floorstanders
6. EPOS ELS3

I think the EPOS and Image B25s have specs close to the Ikons. I don't think there will be any issue with the 663 driving the Ikons.

I am not even interested in routing the video through the AVR, all I need is audio (5 channel - for movies, and fronts for music). So upscaling etc. does not matter. The PC already does an amazing work of upscaling the video to my 720p display, so I will just bypass the AVR. Based on this, do you think I should get a 5.1 channel amp instead? (I dont need blu-ray decoding either in the AVR/amp since it will be done in the PC itself).

Any suggestions on this? I looked into Emotiva 7.1 channel amp for $500, but I cant get it anywhere in India.

Power amplifiers comes as 5, 6, or 7 channel amplifiers. There no Point 1 in them. The Point 1 amplification is supposed to be done by the sub woofer itself.

Power amplifiers are certainly a very good option if you can feed them with good pre-amplified sound. But cost may be a factor. Leaving out companies such as Emotiva or Outlaw, well known power amplifiers are generally in the range of 10 to 20,000 Rupees per channel of power. So if you are looking at a five channel amplifier, you are looking at 50,000 to 100,000.

Bringing down power amplifiers from Emotiva or Outlaw will be a challenge because of the weight. These buggers are heeeeavvvvvy. The courier charges may be more than the product costs !!

Sonodyne makes the MPA 6150 that has 110 watts per channel (@ 8 ohms) into 6 channels. That also could be an option at a much less price. You can look at other Indian brands, second hand power amplifiers, or a DIY option from a well know sound engineer.

The pre-outs are fine. But you will need the multichannel analogue input facility to connect your PC and enjoy the best possible sound and also bypass the DACs on the receiver itself. I am not sure whether the Yamaha or the Denon has it. Can somebody confirm?

Bala, since Bhaskie has narrowed down to the Yamaha 663, I can confirm that the Yamaha 663 can accept 8 channels of decoded analogue sound. This will work for a 7.1 system.

Cheers

 

[bhaskie]

Bhaskie, if you are looking at a HTPC to act as your source hub for all your entertainment, which I am sure you do, then it is very important to check if the amp you choose has a 5.1 or 7.1 channel analogue input facility.

The pre-outs are fine. But you will need the multichannel analogue input facility to connect your PC and enjoy the best possible sound and also bypass the DACs on the receiver itself.

I am not sure whether the Yamaha or the Denon has it. Can somebody confirm?

Absolutely. Venkat has alraedy responded to this.
I have downloaded the manuals for the Yamaha 663 and Denon 1909 and a sony AVR (which has pretty good reviews) and checked for the 7.1 analog inputs. All of these have it, so no issues!

The pre-out is missing in the Denon 1909, and I am bothered by this since I might require it for a stereo amp later on.

I have read and re-read reviews on the Xonar HDAV1.3 and D2X, and I think keeping aside the driver issues reported, the D2X is a better deal in terms of price as well as sound quality. What do you say?
BTW do you have driver issues in WinXP? I dont use Vista, only XP and linux.

Thanks!
Bhaskar

 

[thevortex]

I use the Xonar with Vista and have no problems whatsoever. Good luck with the amp.

If Emotiva can ship international, I believe that will be an awesome as well as cost effective option. Why dont you try writing to them and see what they say? They do mention that they are open for international orders. And if this works out well, I might also order one. The XPA3 or the XPA5 from Emotiva are very very tempting