Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speakers

[churfsan]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Please Help!

This is in continuation with my on-going post on Home Theatre problems - Yamaha RX-V459 and Wharfedale Movie Star 70+ speakers

Following the suggestions of some of the members of this forum, I have now once again checked all settings, which I summarize as follows:

Room size : Small
Front Speakers : Small
Rear Speakers : Small
Centre Speakers : Small
Bass Out : Sub-woofer <tried BOTH also, but I could not make out any difference>
Crossover : 160 Hz (the next lower is 120 Hz, which is on border of the sat speakers; tried that also)
Sub-woofer Phase : Normal (tried reverse also, but no noticeable difference)

Speaker level setting
I do not have a sound level meter, so I can only listen by ear. When the tones are playing, the front and rear speakers seem to be having comparable levels, but when playing the tone on the sub-woofer, the tone is hardly visible. I need to increase the sub-woofer level to the maximum on the AVR to get comparable audio level, while leaving all others at default level.

This I tried even with a THX certified DVD - Star Wars - Revenge of the Sith - Audio calibration utility. Again I found that the bass is hardly audible at default level, and need to crank up fully the maximum level to get comparable audible tone from the sub-woofer

To explain what I mean by weak bass, I wish to illustrate with the following examples:

LOTR - Felloship of the Ring - DTS track

Scene in which the villian - SAURON has his fingers cut off and loses his RING (in the initial scenes). When the RING falls, the AVR / speaker is unable to deliver the impact - I can hardly feel the thud.
Other scenes also - even though DTS track is very effective, I can hardly feel the impact.

Kill Bill - Volume-1 - Dolby Digital Track

Scene is which the Bride fights GOGO. When GOGO swings the spiked ball, I can hear the SWISH WHOOOSH sounds well enough, but when the ball comes forward and hits the table / pillar, again the impact is very weak

Hero (Chinese) - DTS track

The fight scenes seem to be good enough when played at sufficiently high volumes (on my AVR, need to set to -8 dB setting or higher - I do not whether this setting number makes any sense. For the record here,the volume number (on display) varies from -56 dB to +12 dB.

Kungfu Hustle - DTS track

The opening scene is which one gangster is bashing up some police officers. As he walks on the wooden floor, the impact is lacking

For all the above, my reference is my desktop speakers - Altec Lansing MX-5021 THX certified speakers, connected to my PC sound card - SB Live! 5.1 value (old card). I have to say that as far as movie watching is concerned, my MX-5021 are extremely live and aggressive. For music also, it is very good. And I paid less than 10K more than one year ago.

I have to mention here that MUSIC sounds good enough on the AVR + speakers. I play audio CD (JAZZ, POP) which sounds good enough, and even the BASS seems to be alright. Of course it would not be in the same league as dedicated CD players or Oppo class. I play the CD / DVD on the DVD player (Samsung HD-860).

When I listen to my home theatre setup, I feel that for the amount of money I spend almost 2 years ago (50K for AVR + speakers), I must be getting much better satisfaction in movie watching. For this money, I should get a much better deal, if my 10K desktop speakers can sound so good.

The conclusion would be that either the AVR is bad (OR) the speakers are bad (OR) the setup is bad. By 'bad' I mean that they do not seem to give satisfaction in movie watching.

As far as the setup is concerned, I have followed suggestions of some of our friends on this forum, but the matter is inconclusive.
I have read in many posts that Yamaha Amps are generally good for movies, along with Onkyo. But judging by the performance of my amp in movie watching I am not happy. I do not know about Onkyo.

One point of note here is that the sub-woofer volume appears very low and weak on test tones, and unless the level is really pumped up on the AVR, it is not matching with the other speakers (front and rear). Is this normal? Is this indicative of the AVR performance or speaker performance or both as a pair?

Could it be that the speakers are bad for movie watching? I read at some place that these speakers are better for music, not so much for movies, that the bass is lacking in oomph (for movies). Does any one have a first-hand experience with these?

I have also posted a NOOB question in a seperate thread, wherein I have asked whether a digital co-axial cable can also be used to connect from AVR to Sub-woofer (like I have done). How will this effect the performance of the Sub. I have already specified the speaker specifications earlier in this thread. It is reproduced below for ready reference:

Frequency Range at -6dB
Satellite: 12020k
Centre: 7020k
Sub: Boundary position: 28170Hz

Xover Frequency
Satellite: 3k
Centre: 2k
Sub: Xover Frequency: 70170Hz

Sub has 8" driver

Does this all make any sense? I am not very clear on Xover frequency for Satellite and Center at 3k and 2k respectively.

Also, there was some discussion that these speakers being 4 ohm, the AVR is not driving it sufficiently well. I have also pointed out that the AVR gives a provision to set the speaker selection to either 8 ohm or 6 ohm, and I have selected 6 ohm setting. Will this effect AVR / speaker performance as a pair?

Firstly, I would like your opinion if something can be done about the setup and salvaged (first preference). Otherwise, what is to be done?

I need your advise, friends, to know where exactly is the problem, and what is the possible remedy. If I need to change the speaker set, then I need advise on a really good, kick ass speaker set less than 25-30K. If I shoud change the AVR, then also I need suggestion on the best in class AVR, more for movies, decent for music.

Clearly I have made a mistake by not going through these forums when I purchased my AVR and speakers about two years ago. Of course I was not aware that such forums existed. Many of our friends here are happy with their purchase having purchased their gear after discussing in these forums. After spending 50K, I feel that I have not got Value for Money (VFM) and disappointed.

Please help.

Thank you all very much

Churfsan

 

[marsilians]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Hi marsilians,

Checked the speaker manual, and found the following:

Frequency Range at -6dB
Satellite: 12020k
Centre: 7020k
Sub: Boundary position: 28170Hz

Xover Frequency
Satellite: 3k
Centre: 2k
Sub: Xover Frequency: 70170Hz

Sub has 8" driver

Chursfan

Few things to try out here based on the info you ahve give. Set all speakers to small as indicated on pages 78/79 of the manual. Also set the SUB cross over freq to 60 Hz. This is one of the options.

You have to play around the LFE levels (page 80) starting from -10 to 0 in steps of 4 or 5. Also ensure your sub volume is set to mid level. (I have to check back your posts to see if yours is an active or passive sub). If its passive then you may have to raise it a bit more.

Use a THX DVD like Toy Story etc and in the root menu there is THX sound setup. Use that as a test. It given a very good level match for your speakers and will hold well for Dolby Digital.

Don't worry about the satellite freq for now.

Don't go higher than 80 or 100Hz for the sub. Otherwise your speakers may not handle the effects well.

Put down your results and we will take it to the next steps.

The reason you are not getting the effects for LoTR and other movies is your sub cross over. Its set to a very high value. Bring it down...

The speaker level (page 79) can be between 70 - 80% value. If yo still have to operate the volume at any larger than -20 more setup is required.

Hope this helps.

 

[churfsan]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Thanks for your response Marsilians,

Chursfan

Few things to try out here based on the info you ahve give. Set all speakers to small as indicated on pages 78/79 of the manual. Also set the SUB cross over freq to 60 Hz. This is one of the options.

I have now set to the crossover to 60 Hz. Which manual are you referring to?

You have to play around the LFE levels (page 80) starting from -10 to 0 in steps of 4 or 5. Also ensure your sub volume is set to mid level. (I have to check back your posts to see if yours is an active or passive sub). If its passive then you may have to raise it a bit more.

- LFE on the AVR seems to be having a range between -20 to 0. It is already set to 0

- Sub-volume is set to slightly higher than mid level. It is an active sub (it is powered separately from the mains power)

Use a THX DVD like Toy Story etc and in the root menu there is THX sound setup. Use that as a test. It given a very good level match for your speakers and will hold well for Dolby Digital.

I have used Star Wars THX DVD. As I mentioned the sub seems extremely weak. Do you advise me to try with Toy Story also?

Don't worry about the satellite freq for now.

OK

Don't go higher than 80 or 100Hz for the sub. Otherwise your speakers may not handle the effects well.

Set the sub to 60 Hz now. Let me see.

Put down your results and we will take it to the next steps.

I will see and post results at the earliest today

The reason you are not getting the effects for LoTR and other movies is your sub cross over. Its set to a very high value. Bring it down...

Let me check back on this after the adjustments

The speaker level (page 79) can be between 70 - 80% value. If yo still have to operate the volume at any larger than -20 more setup is required.

Again I am not sure which manual you are referring. If it is soft copy, can you give me a link, so that I can download and refer to the same? The hard copy of the AVR manual seems to having different page numbers than what you are referring here.

Another thing, there is one more knob on the sub, which says it is the crossover, one extreme side is marked as MIN and the other extreme side is marked as MAX. The knob is presently in the MID position only. Shall I leave it at this? What do you suggest?

Thank you very much for your patience. I look forward to more hand-holding

Churfsan

 

[marsilians]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Great job Chursfan.

Here is the link to the AVR manual. You have to register for free and can download the pdf version

RX-V459

Thanks for the update on your sub cross over setting. For the most part sub cross over settings should be done by AVR as its controlling the other speakers at the same time. In your case, to avoid what is called as "cascading bass effect" set the sub cross over to the max value. Let me know how it sounds with everything else as I mentioned in the previous post. I have a feeling we are close to resolving your issue

Again, make sure to play around with the frequencies on teh sub between 70 - 100 Hz setting to see which works out best.

Finally, its fine to use the Star Wars DVD. I checked my copy and it has the same settings as the Toy Story one. So no worries there.

 

[churfsan]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Hi marsilians,

I could download the copy of the manual. Thanks
I will update later today on the progress.
Really appreciate your help and patience

Churfsan

Great job Chursfan.

Here is the link to the AVR manual. You have to register for free and can download the pdf version

RX-V459

Thanks for the update on your sub cross over setting. For the most part sub cross over settings should be done by AVR as its controlling the other speakers at the same time. In your case, to avoid what is called as "cascading bass effect" set the sub cross over to the max value. Let me know how it sounds with everything else as I mentioned in the previous post. I have a feeling we are close to resolving your issue

Again, make sure to play around with the frequencies on teh sub between 70 - 100 Hz setting to see which works out best.

Finally, its fine to use the Star Wars DVD. I checked my copy and it has the same settings as the Toy Story one. So no worries there.

 

[churfsan]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Hi Marsilians,

I could not try out the new settings till late yesterday night. I tried again playing the same DVD discs - HERO, KILL BILL and LOTR, repeatedly playing the key scenes at fairly high volume (-24), heavily taxing my wife's patience, as the system is in the bedroom. I played the scenes about a dozen times, before I had to finally stop ... so could not fully complete my tests.

The status is as follows:

1. Set the sub-woofer crossover knob to maximum position, while the setting on the sub-woofer is between 100-120 Hz.
2. Bass Gain volume on sub-woofer is slightly above MID point.
3. SUB WOOFER gain setting on the AVR is set to a higher point, compared to other speakers
4. Centre speaker level is kept slightly high for dialog lift.
5. Performance has improved very much!!! although maybe still not stellar
6. I think setting the crossover knob to maximum has improved the situation very much

7. There is a setting on the AVR - gives different movie modes like "GENERAL, "SPECTACLE", and others, basically DSP settings to give better sound. There is another setting "DIRECT" which just outputs the source without any modifications. I found that using the DIRECT setting is giving better results. I will test some more and post results.

8. LOTR DTS sound track is much better now. HERO (DTS track) is again stellar. KILL BILL has improved but still relatively poor. I think this may be due to the source itself (it is Dolby Digital, but maybe the DVD mastering is not to the mark).

9. I will play around further with the crossover frequency setting on AVR and post back the results.

10. Since Sub is rated at 170 Hz, I thought maybe it can handle upto 120 Hz. Also the satellite starting range is 120 Hz and above. Can you tell me why we must keep the crossover at 80 Hz.

11. Another thing, I kept LFE OUT to BOTH, instead of only SUBWOOFER. Maybe the SAT cannot handle it anyway. I will change this and try once again.

12. I will also try to make slight changes in sub-woofer placement and see if any improvement is there, however there is not much scope to move around.

13. I had pointed out in the last post that while using THX DVD calibration utility, the bass volume sounds very low in normal position, and hence need to increase the speaker level for the sub-woofer on the AVR. Is this normal? Is something wrong somewhere?

14. Is there anything else that can be done now to get more juice out of the system? Will changing the sub-woofer cable (AVR to Sub-woofer) improve the performance. I am using a coaxial cable, marked as DIGITAL, seems to be having some gold-color plating. I do not know the make, the installer gave it for free.

15. I recently enquired in USK ELectronics in Hyderabad for sub-woofer cable. He showed a "GERMAN" cable, and said it will cost Rs. 200/-per meter, with another Rs. 200/- for connector at either end (total Rs. 600/-). In Hyderabad, it may not be too easy to get better known cables. Maybe some of the forum friends in Hyderabad may be able to suggest.

I will update my post after some more tests.

Your comments will be very much appreciated. Thank you for your help and patience.

Churfsan

 

[marsilians]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Good to hear you are making progress here which means you are on the right path.

1. Set the sub-woofer crossover knob to maximum position, while the setting on the sub-woofer is between 100-120 Hz.

Why are you sticking to such a high freq, I mentioned 60 onwards. Did you try that?

2. Bass Gain volume on sub-woofer is slightly above MID point.

you can raise a bit more if you want, around 2 o'clock position.

3. SUB WOOFER gain setting on the AVR is set to a higher point, compared to other speakers

what are the approximate levels that you set for the speakers % wise? Are they at 60 - 80% range?

4. Centre speaker level is kept slightly high for dialog lift.
5. Performance has improved very much!!! although maybe still not stellar
6. I think setting the crossover knob to maximum has improved the situation very much

I do not know what your stellar is but you could improve the effects a bit more.

7. There is a setting on the AVR - gives different movie modes like "GENERAL, "SPECTACLE", and others, basically DSP settings to give better sound. There is another setting "DIRECT" which just outputs the source without any modifications. I found that using the DIRECT setting is giving better results. I will test some more and post results.

This is surprising since I would think that one of the movie DSP's should be more pronounced. Again these settings vary by individual tastes. I used to have mine at "Surr Enhanced" which is DD 5.1 enhanced for movies and multi-channel music. 7-ch stereo or 5-ch stereo sends same signal to all speakers. Not a very good option if you want the effects to break out across the speakers.

8. LOTR DTS sound track is much better now. HERO (DTS track) is again stellar. KILL BILL has improved but still relatively poor. I think this may be due to the source itself (it is Dolby Digital, but maybe the DVD mastering is not to the mark).

Glad to hear. I would try master and commander or incredibles since there is tons of LFE. Usually animated ones from dreamworks/pixar have very good LFE.

9. I will play around further with the crossover frequency setting on AVR and post back the results.

10. Since Sub is rated at 170 Hz, I thought maybe it can handle upto 120 Hz. Also the satellite starting range is 120 Hz and above. Can you tell me why we must keep the crossover at 80 Hz.

80 is THX (George Lucas) recommended standard. But there are tons of things in your house that make not make for suitable listening at this number. So play around with slightly lower and higher. Your speakers cannot handle lots of the effects so 80 or 70 would be right methinks.

11. Another thing, I kept LFE OUT to BOTH, instead of only SUBWOOFER. Maybe the SAT cannot handle it anyway. I will change this and try once again.

This was not my recommendation. You should have this to SUB only.

12. I will also try to make slight changes in sub-woofer placement and see if any improvement is there, however there is not much scope to move around.

Something to try given your flexibility though dont sweat over it too much. The best position for the sub is middle of the room sideways (perpendicular to your viewing angle)

13. I had pointed out in the last post that while using THX DVD calibration utility, the bass volume sounds very low in normal position, and hence need to increase the speaker level for the sub-woofer on the AVR. Is this normal? Is something wrong somewhere?

This is perfectly normal unless it at the highest volume (upto 70-75%) could be fine.

14. Is there anything else that can be done now to get more juice out of the system? Will changing the sub-woofer cable (AVR to Sub-woofer) improve the performance. I am using a coaxial cable, marked as DIGITAL, seems to be having some gold-color plating. I do not know the make, the installer gave it for free.

15. I recently enquired in USK ELectronics in Hyderabad for sub-woofer cable. He showed a "GERMAN" cable, and said it will cost Rs. 200/-per meter, with another Rs. 200/- for connector at either end (total Rs. 600/-). In Hyderabad, it may not be too easy to get better known cables. Maybe some of the forum friends in Hyderabad may be able to suggest.

If the cable isn't damaged then don't bother with German or from the moon cables.

 

[churfsan]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Thanks marsilians,

1. Setting speaker distances is effecting the speaker levels automatically. For instance, the front speakers at 10 feet distance, while the rear speakers are about 4 feet from listening position. Once I set these values, when I go to the speakers level section, I find that the front speakers level are at default position (mid point), while the rear speakers levels are automatically at a lower level, maybe because they are set nearer.

2. Should I readjust the speaker levels proportionally once again to 70-80%? Or should I simply increase overall volume? Now, I am only increasing Sub Woofer to about 80% on the AVR

3. I do not have the DVD you specify but I will see if I can get them for testing purposes.

4. Unfortunately it is not possible to set the sub-woofer to the position specified by you at present.

5. I will test further and update the post

Thank you very much
Churfsan

 

[marsilians]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Thanks marsilians,

1. Setting speaker distances is effecting the speaker levels automatically. For instance, the front speakers at 10 feet distance, while the rear speakers are about 4 feet from listening position. Once I set these values, when I go to the speakers level section, I find that the front speakers level are at default position (mid point), while the rear speakers levels are automatically at a lower level, maybe because they are set nearer.

The AVR is doing its job when you set the distances. You can obviously over ride this by manually increases the speaker levels from the menu. This is only if you feel that you want to hear things louder. You decide the approach to this.

2. Should I readjust the speaker levels proportionally once again to 70-80%? Or should I simply increase overall volume? Now, I am only increasing Sub Woofer to about 80% on the AVR

For speakers, you can increase the individual levels and same for subwoofer. Also if you feel sub is not sounding loud enough (not boomy like a rap or hip hop beat), then increase the volume on the sub itself. dont go beyond 75% for any of the speakers.

3. I do not have the DVD you specify but I will see if I can get them for testing purposes.

Use any DVD that has good bass for your tests. Dont have ot stick to any one type.

4. Unfortunately it is not possible to set the sub-woofer to the position specified by you at present.

Didn't think so and most people do not have it there but thats the ideal Dont worry about this too much.

 

[churfsan]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Thanks marsilians,

Really appreciate your help and patience.
I will post update after I am able to do some more tests

Churfsan