How much power does an AVR / HT actually consume

[syednizamudeen]

True a lot of things are perception driven. One of our forum members had connected two expensive subs in his AVR since ppl keep saying that 2 subs are better than one. Then he realised one fine day that for an unknown period of time when he thought he was enjoying 2 subs, one had been accidentally switched off by his maid. He never really realised this fact and was quick to acknowledge that he couldn't tell the difference between one sub vs 2 subs and sold off one sub

Multiple subs does bring a difference in presenting the lows evenly to more seating positions and it helps to an extent to cancel out the peaks and nulls. It won't sound loud with two subs. But, multiple subs also makes the the bass more blended with the main speakers more easily and the bass doesn't stand out just like that.

I have 2 small subs and I love them.

To me, external Poweramp can drive speakers in much better way than avr.But some how,there would be some sonic difference with rest of the channels.Tried Rotel,Marantz power amps with Yamaha, Marantz AVR"s preout, but l preferred overall matched sound of avr in HT.Power amps did well with music thpugh.
Another thing l found that ultimately that AVR preout are not the best to get the headroom I was looking.That's why new Marantz avrs have peout option in setting.

Now the latest 2020 Marantz and Denon comes with Preamp Disconnect mode. It completely turns off the Power Amplifier circuit completely and it'll be able to pass more than 1.4v to the PA and hence the AVR doesn't clip.

Hi,

After receiving inflated power bills I set out measuring the amount of power which was being consumed by the usual culprits- TV, fridge, AC, PC, water heater and of course the home theater. I used a smart plug from sonoff which sends me information On my phone via WiFi. The results were as follows:

TV approx 50 - 75 watts depending on content. Since my tv is a 55 inch OLED consumption could be higher

Fridge: approx 140- 200 watts when compressor is on, almost nil otherwise

PC- single monitor 50 watts, dual monitor 75 watts. Heavy gaming on one monitor LG ultra wide: 200 w!!

AC- 3 star 1 tonne Daikin 800 watts with compressor on

and finally the HT....

AVR Denon 2500 H (2019) Wharfedale Diamond 220 center, L and R+ Diamond 210 surrounds and 2 ceiling speakers for Atmos. Connected sub- Emotiva 10 inch subwoofer and media player Nvidia Shield. Barring the projector, everything else was connected to the smart plug (including sub). I played the initial scene from inception when the dream starts going wrong and the action begins. I played the scene pretty loud (didnt measure but my daughter was covering her ears). Room size was13 feet x 10 feet with ceiling height of about 8 feet after false ceiling. Guess what the nvidia plus sub plus AVR powering 7 speakers held steady at 60 - 65 wattts and after really dialling the volume higher I could push the consumption to a maxxx 73 watts !

My question to audio experts- are we fooling ourselves by adding extra power amplifiers to AVRs assuming that AVRs don’t have head room ? I am sure an AVR is capable of much more. I had also initially connected 2 amplifiers to my AVR assuming that I was making headroom available. But now I guess the so called improvement in sound from the additional amplifiers was just the sound coloration which the new amps were adding to the chain !
Any views on the above would be welcome.

I'm too happy with just an AVR and my room is larger than yours. The PA is just not about the volume. But, it's about cleaner power that the PA users claim, they get more dynamic range when they add a PA to their chain.

I'm yet to experience a discrete PA in my real life. Of course in theory it should. But, how much and how much can it do without colouring the sound?? Sending the Preouts to AVR from PA is technically not the same as using the Preouts from a Pre-Pro and thus one will be under utilising a PA and I also feel for most who have a modest small - medium rooms and with fairly efficient speakers, modern AVRs with descent room correction should satisfy most budget builds.

 

[DB1989]

Multiple subs does bring a difference in presenting the lows evenly to more seating positions and it helps to an extent to cancel out the peaks and nulls. It won't sound loud with two subs. But, multiple subs also makes the the bass more blended with the main speakers more easily and the bass doesn't stand out just like that.

I have 2 small subs and I love them.

True. How did you go about integrating your sub in your system? where are they positioned in your room?

 

[syednizamudeen]

True. How did you go about integrating your sub in your system? where are they positioned in your room?

I flanked two subs in between the two main speakers.

Its like FL - SW 1 - Center - SW 2 - FR. I didn't prefer the corner placement because the first point of reflection will be a wooden door and likely cause serious rattles. Corner placements work for many when using the dual subs.. When using dual, its less fussy on placement..

I've glued cushions to the doors and padded the windows in the awkward ways. But, have tamed the ugly Bass sweeps at 50Hz. In my room, 50-55 Hz seems to be a problematic range and cause rattles on the door knob and window panes.. But, fixed to greater extent.

I also didn't get both the subs at the same time. I got both in 5-6 months gap and I can find a difference if one sub is switched off or if my little daughter adjusts the gain or inverts the phase at the back of the subwoofer...

 

[RajithKumar]

I flanked two subs in between the two main speakers.

Its like FL - SW 1 - Center - SW 2 - FR. I didn't prefer the corner placement because the first point of reflection will be a wooden door and likely cause serious rattles. Corner placements work for many when using the dual subs.. When using dual, its less fussy on placement..

I've glued cushions to the doors and padded the windows in the awkward ways. But, have tamed the ugly Bass sweeps at 50Hz. In my room, 50-55 Hz seems to be a problematic range and cause rattles on the door knob and window panes.. But, fixed to greater extent.

I also didn't get both the subs at the same time. I got both in 5-6 months gap and I can find a difference if one sub is switched off or if my little daughter adjusts the gain or inverts the phase at the back of the subwoofer...

How did you tamed the bass at 50 Hz.Please.explain in detail so that it may help some people.

 

[syednizamudeen]

How did you tamed the bass at 50 Hz.Please.explain in detail so that it may help some people.

I didn't opt for any professional approach by placing bass traps or by measurements. My primary focus was to eliminate the door and window rattles caused by 50-60Hz from the subwoofer or when running the mains on full range.

I was able to find that it was somewhere between 50-60 Hz, the doors, windows and wardrobes were rattling using a frequency sweep track.

Cause of the rattles were due to the little gap between the doors and its door frame. The Wardrobe doors and the room's main door are facing straight to the front stage and subwoofers and the rattling window was behind the front stage and I'm using fairly a thick curtain though.

So, to depressurize the room slightly, I opened two doors of the wardrobe shelf slightly as shown in the picture. The wardrobe wasn't empty and it has some old cardboard boxes and stuffs that acted as a bit of absorption. This slightly helped a bit. But, still there was rattling and I didn't know which window or which particular wardrobe was rattling.

I played the same track with levels between - 15 dB - 10db (maximum I'd go when watching movies) and placed my ears and hands over each windows and wardrobe doors and the main door.

The main door was rattling so bad as the wooden doors gets to expand or contract in various seasons. When the main door becomes contracted due to weather, it creates more gap between the door and the frame. To tackle that, I put double sided tapes in the frame where the door did not have contact with the frame and double sided tapes acted as a superb padding. The door lock was also giving me a headache, I put the tapes inside the lock as shown in the picture. After putting the tapes in the gaps, the door closed perfectly with the tapes and door latch bolted. And I checked by pulling and pushing the door. No noise from the door.. Viola.
But, still some of the windows behind the speakers and subs rattled. I came to find that the rattle disappearing when I pushed the window(which is rattling) with my arms. So, I went to a hardware store and found a PU rod which is neither too hard nor soft. Used a hacksaw to cut the rod/Bush and sandwiched the rod/Bush in between the window grill and the glass window itself as a cushion. So, no more rattles nor I didn't have to forcefully bring the subwoofer levels lower to enjoy movies with maximum impact.

Double curtains act as a good absorber and if using Denon or Marantz receivers which are compatible with the Audyssey MultEq app, if we know the exact frequency where the subwoofer is causing trouble, we can nudge down the curve a little to smooth out.

MMTacoustix offers doors and window sealing adhesives for a descent price. If I had used that, the doors and frames wouldn't look as shabby as I did. Placing bass traps at least in 8 corners or atleast in 4 corners should flatten nicely.

These fixes are certainly not good looking or a viable fix for everyone. But, did the job in my room without spending more than 400...

In fact purchase the Auddysey MultEq app for 1600... But, I didn't touch the curves. Just used that app to disable Mid range compensation and to apply the Auddysey filter under 700 Hz to to make the treble sound as it is. Else, audyssey by default would smooth out the treble by applying it through out the whole audible range and slightly makes it less lively.

Pardon me, if you have expected some real professional fixes. These are very little things and will work functionally.

 

[RajithKumar]

It seems you have arrested the rattling of doors and windows.

 

[spirovious]

Now the latest 2020 Marantz and Denon comes with Preamp Disconnect mode.

Its useful with multichannel Poweramp only.If stereo Poweramp is connected to AVR, then one can't turn that mode one.Only with stereo music it can be used..

 

[syednizamudeen]

Its useful with multichannel Poweramp only.If stereo Poweramp is connected to AVR, then one can't turn that mode one.Only with stereo music it can be used..

Yeah yeah.. Preamp mode disconnects the AVR's complete internal amp section for more cleaner Pre amp outputs.

 

[RajithKumar]

Its useful with multichannel Poweramp only.If stereo Poweramp is connected to AVR, then one can't turn that mode one.Only with stereo music it can be used..

May I know after connecting how many channels the preamp mode can be switched on.

 

[RajithKumar]

Multiple subs does bring a difference in presenting the lows evenly to more seating positions and it helps to an extent to cancel out the peaks and nulls. It won't sound loud with two subs. But, multiple subs also makes the the bass more blended with the main speakers more easily and the bass doesn't stand out just like that.

Forget to mention ! what you said is true ,but there will be a difference in output too..approx 2 to 6 db depending upon the model and no. of the subs...It's particularly more evident below 40hz.At higher frequencies it tends to cancel out without increasing the output.

 

[Amarendra]

Forget to mention ! what you said is true ,but there will be a difference in output too..approx 2 to 6 db depending upon the model and no. of the subs...It's particularly more evident below 40hz.At higher frequencies it tends to cancel out without increasing the output.

I had experienced some change in bass output when I had connected one wharfedale sub and one emotiva sub to the HT chain. The bass somehow felt deeper and more theater like. However to be honest if some one switched- off one sub without telling me I am not sure I would be able to tell the difference. That is what bugs me coz the question then is do i really need 2 subs ?

 

[Amarendra]

Can you please give the link to that smart plug, i intent to buy one.

Hi Prashob,

I had picked it up from the US about 2 years back. Will try and post a picture though.

 

[Amarendra]

Can you please give the link to that smart plug, i intent to buy one.

Check this out:

SONOFF S31/S31 Lite: US WiFi Smart Plug with Power Monitor|ITEAD

SONOFF S31/S31 lite is a 1 gang US standard wifi smart plug with time schedules. It lets you wireless control appliances on app/Alexa/Google Home.

www.itead.cc

 

[Amarendra]

Multiple subs does bring a difference in presenting the lows evenly to more seating positions and it helps to an extent to cancel out the peaks and nulls. It won't sound loud with two subs. But, multiple subs also makes the the bass more blended with the main speakers more easily and the bass doesn't stand out just like that.

I have 2 small subs and I love them.



Now the latest 2020 Marantz and Denon comes with Preamp Disconnect mode. It completely turns off the Power Amplifier circuit completely and it'll be able to pass more than 1.4v to the PA and hence the AVR doesn't clip.


I'm too happy with just an AVR and my room is larger than yours. The PA is just not about the volume. But, it's about cleaner power that the PA users claim, they get more dynamic range when they add a PA to their chain.

I'm yet to experience a discrete PA in my real life. Of course in theory it should. But, how much and how much can it do without colouring the sound?? Sending the Preouts to AVR from PA is technically not the same as using the Preouts from a Pre-Pro and thus one will be under utilising a PA and I also feel for most who have a modest small - medium rooms and with fairly efficient speakers, modern AVRs with descent room correction should satisfy most budget builds.

True but the cost of cleaner power is too high. First of all you need an AVR which has pre outs at the least (Denon 3600 upwards ?). Then you need a power amp which in the least will cost about INR 30 K for a cheap one ? Compared to that the difference in sound (perceived) is negligible. Also the AVR then lies underused since it is barely using 70-80 watts out of 100+ watts available. Hence its a more effective solution for cheap AVRs but the irony is that the cheap AVRs dont come with pre outs

 

[RajithKumar]

I had experienced some change in bass output when I had connected one wharfedale sub and one emotiva sub to the HT chain. The bass somehow felt deeper and more theater like. However to be honest if some one switched- off one sub without telling me I am not sure I would be able to tell the difference. That is what bugs me coz the question then is do i really need 2 subs ?

Performance of sub greatly depends upon the Room and placement.However we require a good sub to start with. The idea of going multiple subs is to achieve smoother bass across listening position indirectly/ directly it increases the sweet spot.
May I know what's the AVR & Room correction software u r using.
Coz matching identical subs is easier than unidentical ones.
U can try out the following.
Try placing the subs at different possible locations Level match it and Play some heavy bass and check it on Pure direct/ Direct mode.Mark the locations where the bass is good.Then do Room calibration.

Alternatively U can use an app called Spectroid on Android Play store device.Install it and play subwoofer test tones.This app is not accurate as REW( since our Mobile phone microphone has its own limitations) but will give u the frequency response tentatively .Check it with single subs and dual subs in Pure direct / Direct mode.
Try checking the response at listening position by keeping the subs at different possible locations .Select a place where frequency response is nearly flat as possible. Then do Room calibration etc. This will give a better performance IMO.

In case if u didn't found any major difference with dual subs and happy with single sub No harm in that. I have seen a good response even with a good quality single sub too.
Good luck.

 

[syednizamudeen]

Performance of sub greatly depends upon the Room and placement.However we require a good sub to start with. The idea of going multiple subs is to achieve smoother bass across listening position indirectly/ directly it increases the sweet spot.
May I know what's the AVR & Room correction software u r using.
Coz matching identical subs is easier than unidentical ones.
U can try out the following.
Try placing the subs at different possible locations Level match it and Play some heavy bass and check it on Pure direct/ Direct mode.Mark the locations where the bass is good.Then do Room calibration.

Alternatively U can use an app called Spectroid on Android Play store device.Install it and play subwoofer test tones.This app is not accurate as REW( since our Mobile phone microphone has its own limitations) but will give u the frequency response tentatively .Check it with single subs and dual subs in Pure direct / Direct mode.
Try checking the response at listening position by keeping the subs at different possible locations .Select a place where frequency response is nearly flat as possible. Then do Room calibration etc. This will give a better performance IMO.

In case if u didn't found any major difference with dual subs and happy with single sub No harm in that. I have seen a good response even with a good quality single sub too.
Good luck.

I too second with Ranjith, here... It's somewhat less of a headache when two subs are identical. Getting the

True but the cost of cleaner power is too high. First of all you need an AVR which has pre outs at the least (Denon 3600 upwards ?). Then you need a power amp which in the least will cost about INR 30 K for a cheap one ? Compared to that the difference in sound (perceived) is negligible. Also the AVR then lies underused since it is barely using 70-80 watts out of 100+ watts available. Hence its a more effective solution for cheap AVRs but the irony is that the cheap AVRs dont come with pre outs

I'm too in the same boat. I too feel an AVR like the Marantz SR 7013 can handle 5 speakers with descent sensitivity (90+db/w/m) and nominal 8 ohms and also if the room size is small to medium. I also fear that the PA adding to the chain might alter the 'tone' of the main speakers.

Thinking about trying to get a 150w - 200w PA to handle the front mains only at the time when I break the 5 channel barrier,like getting 4 overhead speakers on the ceiling.

So, if the current setup makes one smile and doesn't let you look at your mobile too often, then it's likely better not to upgrade...

 

[Amarendra]

I too second with Ranjith, here... It's somewhat less of a headache when two subs are identical. Getting the


I'm too in the same boat. I too feel an AVR like the Marantz SR 7013 can handle 5 speakers with descent sensitivity (90+db/w/m) and nominal 8 ohms and also if the room size is small to medium. I also fear that the PA adding to the chain might alter the 'tone' of the main speakers.

Thinking about trying to get a 150w - 200w PA to handle the front mains only at the time when I break the 5 channel barrier,like getting 4 overhead speakers on the ceiling.

So, if the current setup makes one smile and doesn't let you look at your mobile too often, then it's likely better not to upgrade...

I am already running 7 speakers with the denon 2500h. Also the power reading was done for sub + AVR which peaked at 75 watts. If I test it with just the AVR it could be much less.

 

[syednizamudeen]

I am already running 7 speakers with the denon 2500h. Also the power reading was done for sub + AVR which peaked at 75 watts. If I test it with just the AVR it could be much less.

But, I feel the AVR would consume more power if its driven.. (SR 7013 in my case)

Specs page says even without driving the AVR would consume 65w of power in eco mode...

While operation it can reach upto 710w..

Says the manual

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

The truth is somewhere in between.
I actually log power usage so i can corroborate your observation that most but the most basic AVRs are not truly taxed on the power /headroom front at moderate to somewhat high volume levels .
The available headroom is even better during stereo playback as only 2 speakers are being driven.

However, good quality Integrated amps do offer certain advantages, the most important one IMO being the much higher channel separation which could be better by upto 20-25db
In a AVR , you will have much greater degree of cross-talk between channels , so let’s say if you were feeding an AVR only 1 channel and play it at 78db. If you hold your ears close to the non driven channel, you will hear a faint playback
That won’t be the case with an Inetgrated (esp those with dual monoblocks) as the separation will typically be 90db or higher.

Would that make a noticeable difference with both channels driven? I don’t know - I cannot tell but then there are several FMs who can differentiate

One thing I can say for sure though is that a lot of audio enthusiasts tend to get elitist and start recommending Integrated Amps to people who are just about getting started and are working on a defined budget.
The notion that gets perpetrated is that Integrated amps sound a LOT better than AVRs for music - which is surely not true

With dual monoblocks how can we have cross talk?

 

[Amarendra]

But, I feel the AVR would consume more power if its driven.. (SR 7013 in my case)

Specs page says even without driving the AVR would consume 65w of power in eco mode...

While operation it can reach upto 710w..

Says the manual

For exact specification refer to the US websites of these AVR companies since it's mandatory to specify per channel watts for 2 ch driven at 8 ohms with 0.08 prcnt distortion. For these specs the marantz 7013 measures 110 w per ch and the denon 2500h produces 95w per ch.