How to connect a Sub Woofer, If an amp doesnt have Sub Woofer out?

[hydrovac]

Hi jagdish_p,

Even if the crossovers included in a subwoofer are great, actually using them is a different story with the cabling required. Built-in crossovers are less optimum, but easy and free.

The best and most practical way to use the subwoofers' own crossovers is to run your regular speakers full-range, and have the subwoofers come in where your main speakers drop off. Set the subwoofers' crossover frequencies to the -6 dB rating of your speakers, and set the slopes (if offered) to 12 dB/octave if your main speakers are sealed-box, and 24 dB/octave if your main speakers are vented or have passive radiators.

Another easy way to use a subwoofer's built-in crossover with any system is to use the speaker-level outputs with subwoofers that have speaker connectors. This is also the worst way, as the passive high-level crossover in the subwoofer is only a series capacitor.

When quality matters, crossover at the lowest frequency you can. It's always best to run as much of the music through the main loudspeakers and to keep the deleterious effects of the crossover (phase and frequency abnormalities) as far away from most of the music as possible. With a dedicated crossover and good speakers, you can usually crossover around 40~50Hz instead of the more common 80~100Hz. Crossover as low as you can.

A trick is to crossover to the subwoofers at a frequency below room resonances. In my room, there are horrible peaks at 50 Hz, so using big bookshelf speakers that make it to 45 Hz let me drive the subwoofers only below 45 Hz, so the 50 Hz room modes aren't excited!

Hope that helps
Krishna

 

[jagdish_p]

Wow that's lot of technical detail, though I got the gist of what you are saying I am yet to understand the 12db/octave slope fully.Will read further about it on the net.
I am assuming that you are recommending a -6 db setting for the sub so that it does not become overwhelming compared to the main speakers - is my understanding correct?

Also I have to compensate by boosting for my hearing loss at low frequencies

 

[hydrovac]

Wow that's lot of technical detail, though I got the gist of what you are saying I am yet to understand the 12db/octave slope fully.Will read further about it on the net.
I am assuming that you are recommending a -6 db setting for the sub so that it does not become overwhelming compared to the main speakers - is my understanding correct?

Also I have to compensate by boosting for my hearing loss at low frequencies

Right jagdish_p,

Everyone's ear is different. And everyone's hearing loss will be a little different. If you want to know precisely what range in the spectrum your hearing loss is in, you'll need to have an audiogram. They'll give you a chart from 20 to 20khz that shows you where your hearing has fallen in efficiency.

That said, audio and especially music is extremely relative and subjective. And to top it off, your mind will compensate for the loss to some extent, so your perception of sound will not be off as much as you think. There is a whole field of psychoacoustic study dedicated to this phenomenon.

"loudness" control on a home stereo amplifier?

The loudness control is designed to compensate for the way we hear at low volumes. Human hearing spans a remarkable volume range and the amount of (high frequencies and low frequencies) we hear depends on the volume at which we are listening. Turn the loudness function on your stereo off (if you have one) then take a CD with a full and well-balanced audio spectrum and you can demonstrate this for yourself. Turn it down as low as possible, just barely loud enough to hear anything at all and listen. If there are vocals you will likely be able to hear that mid-range content but little in the way of cymbals or bass. The full frequency spectrum is virtually inaudible at low volume. It doesn't matter if you're the most golden-eared wunderkind in the universe, that's just how we hear. Our hearing is most sensitive right in the middle at around 1,000 hz. The further away we get from that point in either direction, higher or lower, the less we hear of the extremes relative to the midrange content when the volume is low.

Now, slowly turn the volume up and listen closely. You will start to hear more bass come up in the balance first, then you'll hear some high frequencies start to come in until you reach a fairly loud (but still listenable) volume of between 82 and 89 decibels. That's the volume level that is most spectrum-balanced for human beings. If you live in an apartment, you're probably starting to push your luck with the landlord at this volume, but doesn't the music sound full? You can hear everything in the mix nicely balanced! Now, slowly turn the volume back down and observe what you hear ... the cymbals and other very high frequency content will start to go away along with our much beloved bass frequencies. When the volume is pretty far down, but still audible, push in the loudness button (if you have one) and suddenly you will hear a fuller sound, much closer to the full spectrum frequency balance you heard when the volume was up much higher.

The loudness button typically boosts the bass frequency content in the sound mix by eight or ten decibels centered at 100 hz, it leaves the midrange area "flat" (unaffected) and boosts the high frequencies four decibels usually at around 10,000 hz. This compensates for the way we hear the frequency spectrum in relation to the volume we are listening at and the end result is that we hear a more enjoyable and fuller mix at lower volumes.

Regards

 

[jagdish_p]

hydrovac
Thanks for the interesting write up.

Unfortunately my Amp does not have a loudness setting or separate Bass and Treble settings. I do miss them especially the Bass when listening in stereo mode.

 

[hydrovac]

hydrovac
Thanks for the interesting write up.

Unfortunately my Amp does not have a loudness setting or separate Bass and Treble settings. I do miss them especially the Bass when listening in stereo mode.

jagdish_p,

Absence of tone controls indicate that you are a flat listener. Can you post the config & components of your stereo setup?

There is one vital element of sound reproduction that is more important than any of the others, though all have relevance, and that element is... The accurate retrieval of low-level musical information.

Low-level musical information encompasses the widest possible array of musical sounds. The subtle, instantaneous shifts of dynamics and their intensity and emphasis (also known as micro-dynamics and dynamic shading) enabling musical "expression" to be sensed, heard and felt. The separation, or absence of homogenization, of all of the above, reducing "boredom" and "listener fatigue".

It is indispensable that all this musical information be retrieved accurately.
This allows the music to sound "natural" and appear "intelligible". This is especially relevant with speakers, which have the most problems of any component with the accurate reproduction of both musical timbres (relative level) and with relative timing (phase).

Unfortunately, low-level musical information is also the single most difficult area to preserve, or, in other words, "the easiest to lose"; bad AC power, one FET, one wrong cable, a misplaced RFI ring, etc., and, of course, poorly designed and/or executed components.

Any source, component or system with a "high sound-floor" obscures (actually it eliminates) low-level musical information. For many music lovers, including myself, it is within the low-level information that one finds the real "soul" and "meaning" of the music. That is where the true instrumental textures exist. low "sound-floor" component will pass through "soft sounds", while a high "sound-floor" component will not pass through those exact same soft sounds. (The term "sound-floor", or "noise-floor", does not mean the normal "noise", hiss and hum, you hear from the electronics or the source.)

Using this as a guide, this line of thinking can help us better evaluate the performance of our existing setup and deficiencies in components if any.

Cheers

 

[jagdish_p]

jagdish_p,

Absence of tone controls indicate that you are a flat listener. Can you post the config & components of your stereo setup?

There is one vital element of sound reproduction that is more important than any of the others, though all have relevance, and that element is... The accurate retrieval of low-level musical information.

Low-level musical information encompasses the widest possible array of musical sounds. The subtle, instantaneous shifts of dynamics and their intensity and emphasis (also known as micro-dynamics and dynamic shading) enabling musical "expression" to be sensed, heard and felt. The separation, or absence of homogenization, of all of the above, reducing "boredom" and "listener fatigue".

It is indispensable that all this musical information be retrieved accurately.
This allows the music to sound "natural" and appear "intelligible". This is especially relevant with speakers, which have the most problems of any component with the accurate reproduction of both musical timbres (relative level) and with relative timing (phase).

Unfortunately, low-level musical information is also the single most difficult area to preserve, or, in other words, "the easiest to lose"; bad AC power, one FET, one wrong cable, a misplaced RFI ring, etc., and, of course, poorly designed and/or executed components.

Any source, component or system with a "high sound-floor" obscures (actually it eliminates) low-level musical information. For many music lovers, including myself, it is within the low-level information that one finds the real "soul" and "meaning" of the music. That is where the true instrumental textures exist. low "sound-floor" component will pass through "soft sounds", while a high "sound-floor" component will not pass through those exact same soft sounds. (The term "sound-floor", or "noise-floor", does not mean the normal "noise", hiss and hum, you hear from the electronics or the source.)

Using this as a guide, this line of thinking can help us better evaluate the performance of our existing setup and deficiencies in components if any.

Cheers

My stereo set up
Source : HDD connected to Marantz NA 7004 - FLACS for English pop & jazz,Indian classical. Mp3 for Bollywood and Telugu

Amp : Arcam A28
Tower speakers : Tannoy DC6T SE
Cables: speaker cables - MX bi wired - guage12 and 10
Interconnect-Monster M 850 RCA

No sub. Refer my signature for the rest of the equipment. I prefer low volume listening - room size is 18'x20' living room and not a dedicated room .

Thanks for the interest

 

[sunder]

No impedance problem with sub, it is not 8 Ohm, but more high, say 30 kOhm; your caveat is only for two pair of speakers connected; the sub linked on B spk out does not stress any amp...even the weaker one...

Hi GCE, please clarify the thing: I have one pair of Quadral -'Argentum 320' bookshelf speaker with spec. of 4-8 ohms. This means what? My grundig A903 amp should be connected only with 8Ohms speaker. Can I connect the 4-8 ohms speaker to that amp? If I use the speaker, will any harm come to the amp? What will be the differences occur in an amp which needs only 8 ohms but connected with 4-8 ohms speaker? Thank you.
Regards,
sunder.

 

[GeorgeO]

Use an RCA splitter at the line level input of your amp( the place where you connect your source) and take the signal from there into your sub. While two subs is great from a theoretical point of view, it's not always practical. One is a good starting point( and maybe a finishing point too). I have three powered subs, but I use each of them as singles.

 

[Santy]

Sunder
I suggest you to follow GeorgeO's suggestion of splitting the RCA signal either at the source end. Speaker level input may not be better than line level input for a sub unless there is a great implementation in the sub to do the conversion. The speaker level is basically converted into line level, cross over is applied and then again amplified before feeding them to the driver. With lower noise floor, line level input is far cleaner than amplified signals and has lesser distortion.

Regarding speaker matching don't worry. There is no problem in connecting your bookshelves to your Grundig amp.

 

[jagdish_p]

How do we connect a stereo source if the sub has only one line level input?
I tried connecting through a Y connector but this was mixing up the L and R channels for the main speakers also

 

[Santy]

How do we connect a stereo source if the sub has only one line level input?
I tried connecting through a Y connector but this was mixing up the L and R channels for the main speakers also

Solution is speaker level input if sub has it. But the sub which dosen't have L/R line level input is less likely to have speaker level inputs also I believe.

We must not combine the RCA output of source into one, it can damage the output stage of the source.

 

[sunder]

Use an RCA splitter at the line level input of your amp( the place where you connect your source) and take the signal from there into your sub. While two subs is great from a theoretical point of view, it's not always practical. One is a good starting point( and maybe a finishing point too). I have three powered subs, but I use each of them as singles.

GeorgeO, thank you for your valuable suggestion. I will try according to that.
Regards,
sunder.

 

[sunder]

Sunder
I suggest you to follow GeorgeO's suggestion of splitting the RCA signal either at the source end. Speaker level input may not be better than line level input for a sub unless there is a great implementation in the sub to do the conversion. The speaker level is basically converted into line level, cross over is applied and then again amplified before feeding them to the driver. With lower noise floor, line level input is far cleaner than amplified signals and has lesser distortion.

Regarding speaker matching don't worry. There is no problem in connecting your bookshelves to your Grundig amp.

Santy, I am afraid of the increasing heat in the amp when I use a speaker with less impedance than recommended. I hesitate to connect the speakers of 4-8 ohms instead of 8 ohms speakers. Are you sure that there will be no problem with 4-8 ohms? Thank you.
Regards,
sunder.

 

[GCE]

"Hi GCE, please clarify the thing: I have one pair of Quadral -'Argentum 320' bookshelf speaker with spec. of 4-8 ohms. This means what? My grundig A903 amp should be connected only with 8Ohms speaker. Can I connect the 4-8 ohms speaker to that amp? If I use the speaker, will any harm come to the amp? What will be the differences occur in an amp which needs only 8 ohms but connected with 4-8 ohms speaker?"

Your speakers seem to be a pc spk like these ARGENTUM | Produkte | quadral HiFi | Surround Lautsprecher or TEST: Quadral Argentum New 5.1 Surroundset (Argentum 330, 320, 310 Base, Sub 63 DV Aktiv) ? kompakte Leistungsstrke (14.01.2011) i think; no problem for the amp connecting your quadral on spk A out and sub connected on spk B, because sub impedance is very, very high, say 30000 Ohm and the impedance of Quadral is between 4 and 8 Ohm! Perhaps you could buy better speakers for your very beautyful and strong ( 100 W - 10 KG ! ) Grundig amp Grundig Fine Arts A-903 | Hifi-Wiki.de - my two or three cents!

 

[lucksin]

i find myself in the same dilemma of how to add a sub to my current setup. after going through all the posts i somehow lost myself as to how to add sub? through RCA splitter or through Y cable.

I have Nait 5i Amp and Sonus faber speakers. however i do not have any sub yet and neither do i favor but my younger brother who is still in college has a different taste altogether and he want that extra oomph in sound. can someone be kind enough to may be draw a diagram since lot of stuff just went over my head. i somehow dont want my speakers to be driven by Sub's speaker out so how will i feed my sub(will buy REL with High Level input soon) and how and where will i split the signal from.

sorry for again asking but i am not much technical, i tried understanding but it just went over

 

[jagdish_p]

You have two options:

1) if your sub accepts high level speaker input simply connect two additional speaker cable wires between the sub and amp - Left and right channels .

You do not have to change your existing speaker connections connected directly to the Amp. You can switch off the sub as per your listening preference and you will have your Old set up.
If crossover setting is available on the sub adjust it to your liking. Say 80 hz - which means that the sub will play all sounds below 80 hz in addition to your main speakers.

2) if your sub does not have high level speaker cables you will need two y splitters to split the L& R channel rca from source going to the inputs of the amp.
The split source is to be connected to both amp and subwoofer. I do not know how to draw and post here

 

[lucksin]

Jagdish ji,

the link below depicts something. is this what you meant ?

How to hook up a subwoofer to a stereo system | The Audiophiliac - CNET News

 

[jagdish_p]

Yes this is option one. You don't need all the connectors shown.
Just connect two bare speaker wires to each of the terminals on the Amp. Run one wire to the speaker and the other wire to Sub.

 

[teddy07x]

jagdish_p,

Absence of tone controls indicate that you are a flat listener. Can you post the config & components of your stereo setup?

There is one vital element of sound reproduction that is more important than any of the others, though all have relevance, and that element is... The accurate retrieval of low-level musical information.

Low-level musical information encompasses the widest possible array of musical sounds. The subtle, instantaneous shifts of dynamics and their intensity and emphasis (also known as micro-dynamics and dynamic shading) enabling musical "expression" to be sensed, heard and felt. The separation, or absence of homogenization, of all of the above, reducing "boredom" and "listener fatigue".

It is indispensable that all this musical information be retrieved accurately.
This allows the music to sound "natural" and appear "intelligible". This is especially relevant with speakers, which have the most problems of any component with the accurate reproduction of both musical timbres (relative level) and with relative timing (phase).

Unfortunately, low-level musical information is also the single most difficult area to preserve, or, in other words, "the easiest to lose"; bad AC power, one FET, one wrong cable, a misplaced RFI ring, etc., and, of course, poorly designed and/or executed components.

Any source, component or system with a "high sound-floor" obscures (actually it eliminates) low-level musical information. For many music lovers, including myself, it is within the low-level information that one finds the real "soul" and "meaning" of the music. That is where the true instrumental textures exist. low "sound-floor" component will pass through "soft sounds", while a high "sound-floor" component will not pass through those exact same soft sounds. (The term "sound-floor", or "noise-floor", does not mean the normal "noise", hiss and hum, you hear from the electronics or the source.)

Using this as a guide, this line of thinking can help us better evaluate the performance of our existing setup and deficiencies in components if any.

Cheers

What speakers do you find to be good at low-level listening?

I'm currently contemplating getting a pair of Dynaudio Focus 110 or 160 and pair them with two subs. I live in an apartment so I can't crank the system.

Or, is there a formula to find speakers that perform well at low levels? And how would you add a loudness function to a system without the loudness button?

 

[jagdish_p]

What speakers do you find to be good at low-level listening?

I'm currently contemplating getting a pair of Dynaudio Focus 110 or 160 and pair them with two subs. I live in an apartment so I can't crank the system.

Or, is there a formula to find speakers that perform well at low levels? And how would you add a loudness function to a system without the loudness button?

Look for speakers with more then 90 dB sensitivity for low level listening.
Loudness button boosts the low and high end frequencies. Some equipment have separate tone and bass boost controls for high and low frequencies.