How to make streaming music sound better

[superczar]

Regarding independent DAC suggestions - Aren’t you fellas attacking the wrong problem?

Without getting into the debate of whether DAC A or DAC X will sound better (or worse ) than ATV.
The moot point here is this : In OPs setup , FM sounds better than spotify/AM (regardless of the source) - which simply should never be the case

On a scale of 1–10, if spotify on ATV is a 8/10, whether DAC A/X is better than OPs source is the equivalent of wondering if an IFI (or any other DAC) is a 7.5 or 8.5

FM in comparison would be a 3 (for me) or 4 or a max 5 on 10 because FM is a significantly lower bandwidth mechanism as compared to a correctly configured streaming platform

 

[MaSh]

I have an official MacBook and tried connecting the headphone out to the Maranta and it sounds better than ATV....shame I didn't try this out earlier. I will test further and see if it something I can hold my peace with - though I am a little reluctant to be connected to my AV system and having to go to the laptop to change music etc.

Which TV are you using? Does it have an optical out?

If yes, then try running an optical from tv directly to your Marantz stereo amp. Yamaha might have standby pass through or similar feature, so set Yamaha to that. Apple TV signal should then pass on as is to the tv. Set Tv Audio to Optical. This should pass on the audio to your Marantz.

MaSh

 

[dvraghavan]

Which TV are you using? Does it have an optical out?

If yes, then try running an optical from tv directly to your Marantz stereo amp. Yamaha might have standby pass through or similar feature, so set Yamaha to that. Apple TV signal should then pass on as is to the tv. Set Tv Audio to Optical. This should pass on the audio to your Marantz.

MaSh

I tried this today it sound FAR superior. Samsung TV has an Optical out. Yamaha AVR is passing the full audio to Samsung. Connected the optical out from TV to the Maranta and audio is amazing.
Thanks for all your suggestions. I think the clincher was Manohar's intuition that the AVR's DAC wasn't performing well enough.

I can switch the source on the IA to the input channel of the AVR Pre out to watch movies and other TV and not much hassle for switching to video.

 

[DB1989]

Apple TV 4K HDMI to TV HDMI and from TV optical to Denon PMA 600ne Optical. IFI Zen Blue V2 RCA to RCA AUX of Denon for streaming Music. Sounds better than Optical and Coaxial coonection available on IFI.

It seems the weak link in the AppleTV chain is the DAC built into the PMA600NE since that's doing the DA conversion. On the other hand, the Ifi Zen Blue V2 is an excellent DAC cum Bluetooth receiver and since it is responsible for the DA conversion, it is sending a much better analog signal to the PMA600NE than it would be able to convert on it's own. In fact, the Ifi ZEN DAC is better than most inbuilt DACs of sub 1L amps and a few over that mark as well.

In fact, Your experience very much mirrors mine as i too preferred the Ifi Zen DAC over the inbuilt DAC on the Cambridge Audio CXA81 which has an excellent inbuilt DAC in it's own right.

However, the comparison is not Apples vs Apples (no pun intended) since in the Apple TV 4K chain, you're using the PMA600NE for the DA conversion as opposed to the DAC inside the Ifi Zen Blue V2.

Therefore, it won't be possible to judge the sound quality of Apple TV 4K as a "source" since the comparison is being with a DAC viz. Ifi Zen Blue V2.

 

[DB1989]

Thanks for all your suggestions. I think the clincher was Manohar's intuition that the AVR's DAC wasn't performing well enough.

I think you got the name wrong their Senor

 

[DilipPune]

It seems the weak link in the AppleTV chain is the DAC built into the PMA600NE since that's doing the DA conversion. On the other hand, the Ifi Zen Blue V2 is an excellent DAC cum Bluetooth receiver and since it is responsible for the DA conversion, it is sending a much better analog signal to the PMA600NE than it would be able to convert on it's own. In fact, the Ifi ZEN DAC is better than most inbuilt DACs of sub 1L amps and a few over that mark as well.

In fact, Your experience very much mirrors mine as i too preferred the Ifi Zen DAC over the inbuilt DAC on the Cambridge Audio CXA81 which has an excellent inbuilt DAC in it's own right.

However, the comparison is not Apples vs Apples (no pun intended) since in the Apple TV 4K chain, you're using the PMA600NE for the DA conversion as opposed to the DAC inside the Ifi Zen Blue V2.

Therefore, it won't be possible to judge the sound quality of Apple TV 4K as a "source" since the comparison is being with a DAC viz. Ifi Zen Blue V2.

Thanks. This is Informative.

 

[MaSh]

I tried this today it sound FAR superior. Samsung TV has an Optical out. Yamaha AVR is passing the full audio to Samsung. Connected the optical out from TV to the Maranta and audio is amazing.
Thanks for all your suggestions. I think the clincher was Manohar's intuition that the AVR's DAC wasn't performing well enough.

I can switch the source on the IA to the input channel of the AVR Pre out to watch movies and other TV and not much hassle for switching to video.

That's great. Glad you can now enjoy music with better sound quality. It is very rare that stereo music sounds good with a HT receiver in the chain.

MaSh

 

[Arvind Mathur]

Apple TV 4K is one of the best sources for audio and video out there. It is discernably better than all other AV sources that i have tried in my system including PV, Firestick 4K, PlayStation 5 or the inbuilt Apps on my TV when it comes to Spotify (to keep all comparisons equal)

However, it's not the best "audio only" source that i have. Unsurprisingly, the Allo Digione Signature and the Ifi Zen Stream found better. Interestingly, direct streaming through HEOS on my AVR - Marantz SR6013 also sounds slightly better for Spotify. Needless to say, HEOS sounds much better than the AV sources mentioned earlier.

Therefore, from my experience, Apple TV is one of the best sources out there, even for audio on a standalone basis.

Try using a separate HDMI cable (doesn't need to be fancy), just in case it's a problem with the particular one you're using.

Your observation that ifi zen stream plays better sounding compared to ATV. This is TRUE when we compare the two. I have been using Zen stream since its launch in India.
For spotify this is ok but for playing ripped Digital CDs I find this falls short of PC playing foobar2k.
Have you compared the two?

 

[kumar_saurav]

Apple TV will resampling everything to 24/48Khz as it is designed for video playback. Get a good streamer to pass bitperfect to DAC. Apple Music will be limited by Air Play and you can use Spotify with Spotify connect but at least you will bypass resampling.

 

[dvraghavan]

Apple TV will resampling everything to 24/48Khz as it is designed for video playback. Get a good streamer to pass bitperfect to DAC. Apple Music will be limited by Air Play and you can use Spotify with Spotify connect but at least you will bypass resampling.

Any recommendation for such a streamer?

 

[superczar]

Apple TV will resampling everything to 24/48Khz as it is designed for video playback. Get a good streamer to pass bitperfect to DAC. Apple Music will be limited by Air Play and you can use Spotify with Spotify connect but at least you will bypass resampling.

All of this is about arguably moving from what should have been a 8/10 experience to a score of 8.2 or 8.3 .

Unfortunately this thread seems to be losing sight of the fact that for the OP FM radio is sounding better than streaming.. whereas FM should have been a 3 or a 4 in the rating scale above.

External DACs, non resampling streamers et al may make a difference but we are talking orders of magnitude difference here.
Spotify or apple music simply should not sound worse than FM radio regardless of how shitty the DACs or streamer involved are.

If a 200bhp Bimmer is accelerating slower than a 50bhp Zen, the fix does not lie in using high speed rating tires or 91 octane rating fuel. Something else is wrong instead that needs to be checked first

 

[DB1989]

Your observation that ifi zen stream plays better sounding compared to ATV. This is TRUE when we compare the two. I have been using Zen stream since its launch in India.
For spotify this is ok but for playing ripped Digital CDs I find this falls short of PC playing foobar2k.
Have you compared the two?

I have compared my PC against the AppleTV Ifi Zen Stream over a few common applications - primarily Spotify as it's convenient. Insofar as Spotify is concerned, Zen Stream sounds the best followed by Apple TV and PC in that order.
Never tried Foobar on PC.

 

[DilipPune]

How do you have your Apple TV 4K connected to your Denon PMA600NE?

Optical from TV to Optical in Denon.

 

[DB1989]

Optical from TV to Optical in Denon.

Okay. How do you have your ifi zen blue connected to the Denon? RCA, coax or optical?

 

[mbhangui]

Apple TV 4K HDMI to TV HDMI and from TV optical to Denon PMA 600ne Optical. IFI Zen Blue V2 RCA to RCA AUX of Denon for streaming Music. Sounds better than Optical and Coaxial coonection available on IFI.

My experience has been the same. Using external DAC is far better than ATV or macbooks. For music avoid ATV and macbooks. There is a big issue with ATV and macbook pro/air and macbook mini. ATV uses a fixed sampling rate of 48 kHz. So almost all music will be resampled to 48 kHz and then sent out from the ATV. For movies it is fine as the standard is 48 kHz. The audio will go to your TV without any resampling. But for music, the ATV will resample everything to 48 kHz. There is nothing you can do to fix this for ATV. macbook and mac minis also play music at a fixed sampling rate. But unlike ATV, on macbooks you can atleast manually run the audio midi setup application to match the source sampling rate so that sample rate conversion is avoided and you get bit-perfect playback. But who in this world will run the audio midi setup every time the song changes? So I use this program on all my macbooks and one mac mini which detects the source samping rate and automatically adjusts the samping rate of the dac connected to the macbook.

GitHub - vincentneo/LosslessSwitcher: Automated Apple Music Lossless Sample Rate Switching for Audio Devices on Macs.

Automated Apple Music Lossless Sample Rate Switching for Audio Devices on Macs. - vincentneo/LosslessSwitcher

github.com

IOS devices do not have the issue that ATV and macbooks have. They do it seamlessly like all other operating systems like Linux, Windows, BSD. So if you are into apple music, best is to use iphone or ipads as the source or use the above program on macbook with an external DAC. Use the older version of the above lossless switcher, as the new version causes stutter in the first 2 seconds when the song changes.

ATV strictly adheres to 48 kHz standard for movies. Apple will never release a ATV which can automatically adjust the sampling rate. Also never use the headphone out of the macbooks/minis of the older models which also serve as optical out. They are limited to 96 kHz sampling rate. So HiRes through the headphone out will not be bit perfect unless the source samping rate is 96 kHz. Another option is to use the now disconinued Airport Express which also renders bit perfect playback for 44.1 kHz source (which is what mostly apple music is). For casual or daily listening that's what I use instead of the ATV. See this thread https://www.hifivision.com/threads/...o-cd-quality-am-streaming.92927/#post-1034527

When I need full enjoyment (like when with drinks), I use a DAC connected to my mac mini with the above lossless switcher.

 

[dvraghavan]

My experience has been the same. Using external DAC is far better than ATV or macbooks. For music avoid ATV and macbooks. There is a big issue with ATV and macbook pro/air and macbook mini. ATV uses a fixed sampling rate of 48 kHz. So almost all music will be resampled to 48 kHz and then sent out from the ATV. For movies it is fine as the standard is 48 kHz. The audio will go to your TV without any resampling. But for music, the ATV will resample everything to 48 kHz. There is nothing you can do to fix this for ATV. macbook and mac minis also play music at a fixed sampling rate. But unlike ATV, on macbooks you can atleast manually run the audio midi setup application to match the source sampling rate so that sample rate conversion is avoided and you get bit-perfect playback. But who in this world will run the audio midi setup every time the song changes? So I use this program on all my macbooks and one mac mini which detects the source samping rate and automatically adjusts the samping rate of the dac connected to the macbook.

GitHub - vincentneo/LosslessSwitcher: Automated Apple Music Lossless Sample Rate Switching for Audio Devices on Macs.

Automated Apple Music Lossless Sample Rate Switching for Audio Devices on Macs. - vincentneo/LosslessSwitcher

github.com

IOS devices do not have the issue that ATV and macbooks have. They do it seamlessly like all other operating systems like Linux, Windows, BSD. So if you are into apple music, best is to use iphone or ipads as the source or use the above program on macbook with an external DAC. Use the older version of the above lossless switcher, as the new version causes stutter in the first 2 seconds when the song changes.

ATV strictly adheres to 48 kHz standard for movies. Apple will never release a ATV which can automatically adjust the sampling rate. Also never use the headphone out of the macbooks/minis of the older models which also serve as optical out. They are limited to 96 kHz sampling rate. So HiRes through the headphone out will not be bit perfect unless the source samping rate is 96 kHz. Another option is to use the now disconinued Airport Express which also renders bit perfect playback for 44.1 kHz source (which is what mostly apple music is). For casual or daily listening that's what I use instead of the ATV. See this thread https://www.hifivision.com/threads/...o-cd-quality-am-streaming.92927/#post-1034527

When I need full enjoyment (like when with drinks), I use a DAC connected to my mac mini with the above lossless switcher.

I bought a Schitt Modi 3 recently and connected to both macbook and to iPhone. THe outcome is nice. I will try this app you mention to automatically change the sampling rate.

 

[vijayk]

Ideally Spotify endpoint at the AVR should work and you will be able to listen difference very clear

 

[DilipPune]

Okay. How do you have your ifi zen blue connected to the Denon? RCA, coax or optical?

Tried all 3, and came to a conclusion RCA is the best. For my ears. Can differ of course.

 

[DB1989]

Tried all 3, and came to a conclusion RCA is the best. For my ears. Can differ of courses

It sounds better with RCA because the digital to analog deciding is being done by the Ifi Zen blue as opposed to the Denon when connected over Optical or Coaxial because the DAC inside the denon is not as good.

This is the same reason why tracks played by you over Bluetooth on the Ifi zen blue sounds better than the Apple TV 4k because the latter is being fed into the denon and using its D to A conversion.

 

[DilipPune]

It sounds better with RCA because the digital to analog deciding is being done by the Ifi Zen blue as opposed to the Denon when connected over Optical or Coaxial because the DAC inside the denon is not as good.

This is the same reason why tracks played by you over Bluetooth on the Ifi zen blue sounds better than the Apple TV 4k because the latter is being fed into the denon and using its D to A conversion.

Right. Agreed, Thanks