Is Vinyl better than CD?

[santnai]

Is Vinyl better than CD in terms of sound reproduction? Which is better? Keep floating your ideas.

Regards,

Santosh

 

[gannyboy]

Music from a well pressed vinyl played on a decent TT having a decent cart connected to a decent system through a decent phonostage will definitely be comparable to that of a very high end CD player if not better. Vinyl has an edge over the CD in terms of warmth and also in creating accurate sound staging. Many times I ve felt as if the singer is sitting right before me which is pure bliss and a thing to be experienced. The downside of all the issues related to maintenance of the records and practical difficulties in playing them will all vanish the moment u sit, relax and close your eyes to the ilayaraja songs in vinyl. my 2 rs.

cheers
ganesh

 

[iaudio]

 

[venkatcr]

This is a very general and vague question. What do YOU understand by sound quality? What is the kind of equipment that you have? Which TT are you comparing with which CD Player? Can you afford to pay close to 1000 for each new LP? Do you have a collection of well maintained LPs.

In general, audiophiles prefer a TT to a CD Player. But a well constructed CD player and good media can beat the pants of many TTs. And vice versa. Any CD player will sound better if you use a low end TT and LPs that have not been maintained well. Can you stand the hiss and scratch noise that is part of a badly maintained LP?

It will make more sense to be specific rather than asking people to float around.

Cheers

 

[malvai]

As venkatcr has pointed out, there are many things to think about whilst answering the question you have asked about....

But in absolute terms, budget for budget, the vinyl set up WILL beat digital. Digital, over the years has been coming closer and closer, but as of now, Vinyl is unbeatable.

IMHO, a vinyl rig worth about 80k, playing decently maintained LP's (specifically 45 RPM ones) will beat CDP's worth 2-3 times the price...

However, Vinyl is tough to maintain...

In my case, I prefer the vinyl sound and do not find maintaining my vinyl as a very minor inconvenience. In fact, over the years, it has become a part of my daily listening ritual, that i throughly enjoy! It keeps me 'connected' to what i'm playing!

 

[heynownow]

I'm sure it will sound better than any CD provided you have a $150K Clearaudio Statement Turntable to play your vinyls.

 

[deba]

I'm sure it will sound better than any CD provided you have a $150K Clearaudio Statement Turntable to play your vinyls.

What a waste of Money !!........

 

[hemantwaghe]

I'm sure it will sound better than any CD provided you have a $150K Clearaudio Statement Turntable to play your vinyls.

If it bdoesnot It is sheer waste! It has too..
I mean just to prove Dsel vehcles are better in performance buy highest end diesels from BMW ,Merc or Audi and run it against average petrol sedan ..the performance is better by diesel cars...

again Any CD ..anyone compared in same price catagory with same system?

also BIGGEST ISSUE with vinyl is avalibality,vinyl is NOT format with lesser budget.To be honest 80 K is a lot of budget for me .And for software you need astronomical budget ,1000 is averageestimate for LP.Again for some people their genour may not be available (like modern movie songs) so practical aspect needs to be considered.

 

[malvai]

What a waste of Money !!........

That's a very relative statement, isn't it?
To the guys who can afford it, it isn't a waste. To us....

 

[alpha1]

Are apples really better oranges?

At least give a criteria for measuring the difference ...

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Is it conceivable to come up with a modern analogue media? I'm imagining something like laser following a microscopic image in the same way that a stylus follows the groove.

 

[rydhun]

Are apples really better oranges?

Yes hyeah: Definitely! (assuming you meant "Are apples really better THAN oranges")

 

[malvai]

Is it conceivable to come up with a modern analogue media? I'm imagining something like laser following a microscopic image in the same way that a stylus follows the groove.

well there is something like this! It has not caught on for some reason....

Check this out: ELP Laser Turntable: Plays Vinyl Records without a Needle

 

[venkatcr]

Is it conceivable to come up with a modern analogue media? I'm imagining something like laser following a microscopic image in the same way that a stylus follows the groove.

There are two points here.

One; someone did make a TT that used a laser beam instead of a stylus. The product had a very short lifetime due to reasons unknown.

Two; the 'image' as you call it has to physically represent the music. This can done in one of three ways - (1) the traditional method of a vinyl where the groves are used; (2) some magnetic form that can be used to represent the music; and (3) digital form.

If you delve deep into the construction of a CD, you will notice that the representation is actually physical - a minuscule hole in the media that represents a zero or a one.

Any form of representation other than a empirically physical form such as the vinyl groves has to be digital.

A well recorded digital media at high sampling rates is very very close to the analogue original, and the difference is very difficult to identify. In the recent past, more and more reviewers have realised that a high sampled digital version stored on a hard disk removes the limitation of a media such as CD/DVD, and they were able to hear a larger sound stage as well as more detail than not only the equivalent Redbook CD, but in many cases even the equivalent vinyl. Before jumping on me, it is wise to remember a disk has no limitation of the data size. You can, theoretically, store a single song on something like 120MB size - three times more than the compressed sized used in a CD. This technology has moved very strongly into the 7.1 domain where HD audio of a movie is stored in something like 20GB of space. That is roughly 170MB per minute per track. Compare this to a Redbook CD that stores 2 tracks of roughly 3 minutes in about 40MB.

The main issue in the digital domain is compression. As media reaches higher capacities, the sheer volume of data that can be stored will make analogue look like a steam engine.

What surprises me that no one has thought of releasing a music disc using Blu-Ray. They can record and store the music without any compression and at sampling rates very very very close to the analogue wave form. That will, as I said before, make all TTs beg for mercy.

Cheers

 

[malvai]

There are two points here.

One; someone did make a TT that used a laser beam instead of a stylus. The product had a very short lifetime due to reasons unknown.


Cheers

It did not have a short lifetime venkat.... it still is around (in Japan) and from what i read in the link above, in my earlier post before your last, it is about to be launched in the US & Europe as well...

second, vinyl do not suffer from any compression. The sound is literally cast into solid vinyl. Digital mediums however expanded they get are still compressed in comparison to analogue.

But, yes, it getting closer and closer. But no matter how close it gets, it simply does not have that 'life' of analogue.

If you come to mumbai, i'll demonstrate it to you on my rig! You might even return a convert!

 

[hemantwaghe]

There are two points here.

One; someone did make a TT that used a laser beam instead of a stylus. The product had a very short lifetime due to reasons unknown.

Two; the 'image' as you call it has to physically represent the music. This can done in one of three ways - (1) the traditional method of a vinyl where the groves are used; (2) some magnetic form that can be used to represent the music; and (3) digital form.

If you delve deep into the construction of a CD, you will notice that the representation is actually physical - a minuscule hole in the media that represents a zero or a one.

Any form of representation other than a empirically physical form such as the vinyl groves has to be digital.

A well recorded digital media at high sampling rates is very very close to the analogue original, and the difference is very difficult to identify. In the recent past, more and more reviewers have realised that a high sampled digital version stored on a hard disk removes the limitation of a media such as CD/DVD, and they were able to hear a larger sound stage as well as more detail than not only the equivalent Redbook CD, but in many cases even the equivalent vinyl. Before jumping on me, it is wise to remember a disk has no limitation of the data size. You can, theoretically, store a single song on something like 120MB size - three times more than the compressed sized used in a CD. This technology has moved very strongly into the 7.1 domain where HD audio of a movie is stored in something like 20GB of space. That is roughly 170MB per minute per track. Compare this to a Redbook CD that stores 2 tracks of roughly 3 minutes in about 40MB.

The main issue in the digital domain is compression. As media reaches higher capacities, the sheer volume of data that can be stored will make analogue look like a steam engine.

What surprises me that no one has thought of releasing a music disc using Blu-Ray. They can record and store the music without any compression and at sampling rates very very very close to the analogue wave form. That will, as I said before, make all TTs beg for mercy.

Cheers

I mentioned something like it in earlier posts
http://www.hifivision.com/home-theater-box/3830-what-next-audio-technology.html

Has anybody heard about HRx?

It might be what Venkat is looking for - very high resolution PC based music
-
( Orignal referance Hifi news ,uk - Nov 2008 Issue)

Information about Reference Recordings, "Prof" Keith O. Johnson and HDCD Recordings

Reference Recordings in the News

HRx DVD-R data discs contain exact, digit-for-digit copies of the original Reference Recordings 176.4 kHz / 24-bit digital masters. This is the ultimate in fidelity for two-channel sound: TRUE high-resolution audio, ready to load from DVD-R data discs onto your computer music server!

Best of Show award for Greatest Technological Breakthrough: Reference Recordings HRx ultra-high resolution (176.4/24) digital music format. (Alan Taffel: The Absolute Sound April/May 2008)

To play HRx, the files on the DVD-R data disc must be uploaded to a computer music server, which then will play the music files through your audio system. (You cannot play them on CD, DVD, or SACD players)


---------
Important Technical Information/FAQs

1. What is HRx? HRx is our trade name for high resolution audio WAV files on a DVD-R data disc. These files contain exact bit-for-bit copies of Reference Recordings master recordings. They are the ultimate in fidelity for two-channel sound!

2. Why did Reference Recordings decide to make HRx? We have a virtually unbroken history of making the finest possible high resolution recordings. We started with analog tape. We werent satisfied with early technology, 16 bit digital recordings, but soon began making HDCD (High Definition Compatible Digital) recordings, in which the process was co-designed by our own recording guru Keith O. Johnson. In the opinion of many, these are probably the best digital recordings ever. Currently we record at 176.4 kHz/ 24 bits, with HDCD, and that is what we put on our HRx discs. Like any quality recording company, we have long been frustrated by the limitations of consumer formats: LP, CD, SACD, DVD-A, etc. No one but our recording and mastering team could hear the full beauty of our recordings! ALL of the consumer formats downgraded the true sound of the master tapes, either because of the limitations of the format itself or of the playback equipment. Computer music playback is the new frontier, and we applaud the brave audiophiles who are its pioneers! The WAV files on HRx are exactly the same as our master recordings. As long as the playback system you use does not convert or corrupt the bits, they will sound as wonderful as our original masters. HRx Notes by Keith O. Johnson

2A. What playback system does Reference Recordings use and what are other some other technical set ups.

2B. What are the system requirements to play back HRx? Your computer or music server must be able to read DVD-R discs and must read WAV files. Your media player and sound card must be able to output 176.4 kHz, 24 bit audio files. You must have a large amount of hard drive storage space available. One HRx title can take up to 4.7 GB of space. You must have software to manage the music playback. One example is Media Monkey. To realize the fullest potential of these master recordings, we recommend using very high quality equipment with proper, low jitter re-clocking, feeding the best possible external DAC. We recommend consulting a computer music specialist to set up a system to play back HRx.

Looking for more information? Here is a site RR recommends: a forum and a resource for technical information about playing back high-resolution computer files: Computer Audiophile | High-End Audiophile Music Servers

2C. Does HRx work with Mac? Yes, although Reference Recordings has less experience with Mac systems so far. Please consult a computer music specialist. UPDATE MAY 27, 2008: We have successfully tested this Mac playback system and achieved bit for bit resolution with sound that was equal to our PC systems detailed above: Link to Mac playback system details.

2D. Using HRx with Windows Vista.

3. Will Reference Recordings stop making CDs? We make terrific CDs, and expect to continue to do so for years. They provide a very satisfying musical experience for the vast majority of music lovers and audiophiles.

4. Will Reference Recordings make all its titles on HRx? No, only selected titles will be released on HRx.

5. Why do you use DVD-R instead of offering downloads? The uncompressed WAV files are so large, that we felt most people would prefer a DVD-R. That way, you dont have hours of download time, plus you have a backup. Reference Recordings DOES offer downloads of our titles in various other resolutions: mp3s from many internet vendors, and CD quality (44.1 kHz) from our partners at HDtracks.com. We expect to have either 88.2/24 or 96/24 files available from Hdtracks.com in the next few months also.

6. What does HRx cost? Reference Recordings is selling HRx titles for $45 each. They are individually made, tested and packaged by our staff.

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[santnai]

Thanks to all the forum members on enligthning me on this topic. Venkatcr sorry for asking such a vague question but I din had any knowledge on Vinyl. I was planning to buy a dedicated CDP and suddenly I discovered Vinyl hence I thought of why not to take a advice from audio guru's here. Now I am clear on what I want and I will stick to dedicated CDP and a good stereo amp. I feel it's more VFM. Thanks once again for all your inputs.

Regards,

Santosh

 

[jls001]

Thanks to all the forum members on enligthning me on this topic. Venkatcr sorry for asking such a vague question but I din had any knowledge on Vinyl. I was planning to buy a dedicated CDP and suddenly I discovered Vinyl hence I thought of why not to take a advice from audio guru's here. Now I am clear on what I want and I will stick to dedicated CDP and a good stereo amp. I feel it's more VFM. Thanks once again for all your inputs.

Regards,

Santosh

Buy both. Or make room in your mind for both. Probably easier to go with CDP right away, then start hunting for a LP player. You will find what you like on CD more easily. Vinyl - hunt, and with luck, you will find old gems, besides current issues of old and current releases (for a hefty price, of course). I am talking about European and American artists for new releases. Also lots and lots of old Indian LPs in every conceivable language. The above is my line of thinking and what I have actually have followed. And it has been a pleasant journey of discovery, especially the LP part.
Joshua

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

1. What is HRx? HRx is our trade name for high resolution audio WAV files on a DVD-R data disc. These files contain exact bit-for-bit copies of Reference Recordings master recordings. They are the ultimate in fidelity for two-channel sound!

Except that music doesn't come in bits, as it is not, itself, digital.

Makes the point, though, that unless the entire chain from performer to listener is analogue, then, from the moment we digitise it, we may as well stay digital.

 

[hemantwaghe]

Anyone fromrecording industry? What about master recording in studious? Is analogue tape still used for master or at master stage digital recording used?