Lowther Or Fostex?

[anm]

ok, another silly question. How did you find out that there is "great bass that's found in hip-hop music", and what thump you are missing? It seems there is some impression already in your mind. Where did that impression get formed? On what speakers did you get that thump now that you are longing for? Why not buy those speakers? Unless you found it on headphones...

No I am not looking for shaking bass, just good bass extension in music with the thump. Not bloated or unnatural bass, just great bass that's found in hip-hop music.

 

[GeorgeO]

I have heard both-I have a system that FR just built a FR using Fostex drivers, see my thread in the diy section, you may want to go through it. OTOH, I also realsie that diy is not to everyone's taste. Lowther drivers ar significantly more expensive than Fostex (x4 or 5)and have a cult like following in the US, which many feel is not borne out by their performance.

Your best bet is to try and audition both if possible, then make your decision.While each person may have their own opinion, and taste, remember every chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.I also think a subwoofer is a key contributor to the audio experience wanting no sub deprives you of that.

Cheers

George

 

[rastaman]

I can tell you that there is no bass lacking in the Mini Dancer One. I have measured output to 30Hz, and the little hip-hop that I did hear was delivered with superb punch and authority, and at reasonable volumes too. The BE-718 does not have a same extension, but the weight of the bass is subjectively more.

The only issues is that the single 7" driver reaches excursion limits with some power in large rooms. My setup is placed in a room ~380-400 sqft and the speakers are able to fill it nicely, except with very loud levels (read:unsafe) where they struggle a bit at the bottom end. Of course those levels are never reached in any use, only for testing equipment (and neighbors' patience).

I listen to a variety of different genres and find them extremely well-balanced. They are not the be-all and end-all of speakers (none I have heard are), but they are amazingly versatile and do lots of different things really well.

ok, another silly question. How did you find out that there is "great bass that's found in hip-hop music", and what thump you are missing? It seems there is some impression already in your mind. Where did that impression get formed? On what speakers did you get that thump now that you are longing for? Why not buy those speakers? Unless you found it on headphones...

Cranky,

You are right, in fact the Usher speakers performed very well in most situations and are suited very well for music. But to answer yours and Anm's question, I have a JBL subwoofer in my car. It's not overwhelming and does not overpower the other speakers in the car, but when anything like rap/hip-hop or any music with deep bass is played it performs or rather kicks in for such music. I really cannot explain it in words, but maybe I can explain it if someone sits in my car. An album like Massive Attack's Mezzanine is so good in the car with the deep bass extension. All that deep bass is lost in the speakers I've auditioned. I'm not asking for overwhelming, foot stomping kind of bass like in a disco, but at least the bass must be heard and experienced like in the car.

Anm,

Apart from my car, I have also heard a lot of music on my PC with 2.1 or 5.1 PC Multimedia Speakers. The .1 is what I'm missing in the speakers I have heard. While they are way better in the vocals, highs and midrange and instruments like the guitar and drums sound way better in the speakers than any 2.1 or 5.1 I have owned I have also always wished I could have the subwoofer from the PC Multimedia Speakers along with the speakers. I don't know if this is an option but maybe to just connect or wire the subwoofer from the PC Speakers to say the Usher's would complete the setup.

I do believe the EP is what I'm looking for since they do go from 20Hz - 22kHz while others will start mostly from 30Hz or mid 30Hz, but I do have to listen to them to be sure.

 

[rastaman]

did you audition klipsch rf83? Did you find bass lacking there as well?

regards

Hi Anm,

I do not believe I have heard them or else I would have made a note of the make and model for further listening. I will try to check them out too along with the EP.

 

[odyssey]

Hi All,

The speakers I have heard are
Usher - Be-718, Mini Dancer One
KEF - IQ, XQ series at ProFX (don't remember exact models).
Epos - ELS 8
Quad - 11L, 12L
Monitor Audio - RS8, RS6
Mission - M series
Klipsch - Reference series

I am sorry I do not remember the other components, cables, CD players etc., but most were NAD, Marantz, Cambridge Audio, and Arcam.

In most of them I found the bass to be lacking especially for dance kind of music like hip-hop, trance, etc. The mids and highs were pretty good in most of them, but the thump was missing. I would like the same highs, mids with additional thump too.

Hi
I am curious when and where you heard the Ushers? Do you remember what amps were used with these speakers?

cheers

 

[odyssey]

Sridhar,

Can you compare between CS2.3 and CS3 ? Have you heard them both?

Regards.

Sure, let me first describe the two speakers.
the CS3 is a 2-way, has a single 12" woofer with a concentric tweeter. It needs a single amp and has an external DSP unit for crossover functionality, equalization, etc The speaker is an open baffle design.

You can read more about it here

CS3

Using the DSP unit, the speakers are equalized down to about 32Hz and are capable of a flat in-room response.

The CS2.3 is a 3-way, has the same 12" woofer and tweeter as the CS3 but in addition there are two additional 15" woofers per speaker. The 15" woofers serve up to 100 Hz above which the 12" takes over. This speaker needs to be biamped. Again, refer to the website for more details.
Both speakers are of high sensitivity and easy to drive - I have tried with the entry level NAD integrated with decent results. Side walls dont matter much to these speakers as the directivity is controlled in the freq that matter to human hearing (Low freq do not have controlled directivity)

How do they sound -
If you are looking for open, extremely dynamic and large live like sound, this is the speaker. Believe me, very few of you would have heard such an open sound. The drivers themselves are pretty transparent that the nature of the sound can be tuned by using tube amps or class D or regular SS amps - depending on your tastes. They are quite detailed - as live sound tends to be and not your laid back speaker. You can hear a lot of bass detail which is otherwise absent in speakers with cabinets. I could go on but a read of the CS2 will give you a good idea on these speakers. The improvements over the CS2 are substantial IMO and the coherency they provide is very very good due to the point source like nature.

The CS3 and CS2.3 are very close but the CS3s are easier to integrate in a smaller/mid room while the CS2.3 will need a mid/larger room.

cheers
[email protected]

 

[odyssey]

Sridhar,

Can you compare between CS2.3 and CS3 ? Have you heard them both?

Regards.

Sure, let me first describe the two speakers.
the CS3 is a 2-way, has a single 12" woofer with a concentric tweeter. It needs a single amp and has an external DSP unit for crossover functionality, equalization, etc The speaker is an open baffle design.

You can read more about it here

CS3

Using the DSP unit, the speakers are equalized down to about 32Hz and are capable of a flat in-room response.

The CS2.3 is a 3-way, has the same 12" woofer and tweeter as the CS3 but in addition there are two additional 15" woofers per speaker. The 15" woofers serve up to 100 Hz above which the 12" takes over. This speaker needs to be biamped. Again, refer to the website for more details.
Both speakers are of high sensitivity and easy to drive - I have tried with the entry level NAD integrated with decent results. Side walls dont matter much to these speakers as the directivity is controlled in the freq that matter to human hearing (Low freq do not have controlled directivity)

How do they sound -
If you are looking for open, extremely dynamic and large live like sound, this is the speaker. Believe me, very few of you would have heard such an open sound. The drivers themselves are pretty transparent that the nature of the sound can be tuned by using tube amps or class D or regular SS amps - depending on your tastes. They are quite detailed - as live sound tends to be and not your laid back speaker. You can hear a lot of bass detail which is otherwise absent in speakers with cabinets. I could go on but a read of the CS2 will give you a good idea on these speakers. The improvements over the CS2 are substantial IMO and the coherency they provide is very very good due to the point source like nature.
The bass on these speakers have to be heard - not for the quantity alone but for the quickness and quality/realistic nature. I believe its not the qty that most people are after (though they may not realize it) but the quality. The CS3 has more realistic bass (due to open baffle) than cabinet speakers that go down to 32 Hz.

The CS3 and CS2.3 are very close but the CS3s are easier to integrate in a smaller/mid room while the CS2.3 will need a mid/larger room.

cheers
[email protected]

 

[Asit]

Hi Sridhar,

Probably you missed my post (#15) in this thread. There I had a question for you. If you think this is not the proper place, then please PM or e-mail me.

Regards.

PS: Sorry, just found your reply above after posting. You seem to have double-posted. Thanks for a nice overview.

 

[psychotropic]

You've answered your question yourself. Full range is not what you need. A subwoofer is what you need. There are many threads about good subwoofers at various price ranges on these forums.

I am just taking a random example, but a good pair of bookshelves like say the Ushers (X 718 or Be 718 depending on budget) with a good sub from say a Velodyne may give you the thump that you need. All the best!

I have a JBL subwoofer in my car.

The .1 is what I'm missing in the speakers I have heard.

 

[keith_correa]

AV gurus,

I'm on the lookout for full range speakers for audio only preferably without the usage of subwoofers. I listen to a lot of trance and rave music so need the bass quotient to be high too.

I've auditioned quite a few speakers but nothing seems to meet my expectations in the sense either the bass is missing or the highs are too forward and shrill or sometimes even the midrange is muddy and lacking clarity and depth.

I would appreciate some help in checking out some speakers that will play the entire spectrum of music and play it very well.

Price is no bar up to around Rs. 4-5 lacs and this would include the amplifier and cables too. I already have a source. I would prefer a 2.0 speaker system or else a 2.1 unit that comes well integrated with a subwoofer for the thump in the music too, but with a fast responding/musical sub since some of the music I play is foot tapping.

See this. They sell Fr drivers and enclosure plans. Please contact David Dicks there for his suggestions on your requirements.

Warning: Dave is a bit of a maverick in his thoughts about FR enclosures which he faces a lot of flak for. All the "gurus" consider him an idiot because of his thoughts/ideas/theories which fly in the face of conventional wisdom. Me, I like mavericks and the like. Maybe what he suggests may float your boat but be prepared for opposition to his suggestions if you make it known in public.
I for one would very much like to hear what he has to say and his suggestions so request that you share this with us. I suggest that in your interactions with him you provide all information that will help him make an informed [or uninformed - depending on whom you are listening to hyeah:] suggestion - like room size, genres of music that you will be listening to, upstream components etc. etc.

 

[dinyaar]

AV gurus,

I'm on the lookout for full range speakers for audio only preferably without the usage of subwoofers. I listen to a lot of trance and rave music so need the bass quotient to be high too.

I've auditioned quite a few speakers but nothing seems to meet my expectations in the sense either the bass is missing or the highs are too forward and shrill or sometimes even the midrange is muddy and lacking clarity and depth.

I would appreciate some help in checking out some speakers that will play the entire spectrum of music and play it very well.

Price is no bar up to around Rs. 4-5 lacs and this would include the amplifier and cables too. I already have a source. I would prefer a 2.0 speaker system or else a 2.1 unit that comes well integrated with a subwoofer for the thump in the music too, but with a fast responding/musical sub since some of the music I play is foot tapping.

Hi,
In that case i too would suggest the Emerald physics 2.3. Will satisfy the above and a little more. Tremendous scale and impact and at the current MRP quite a deal.
I say this cause the only EP in mumbai is with my friend who is happily breaking it in!!!
Rgds

 

[GeorgeO]

Here's another link-FRs built from plans for Lowther plans-the Fostex driver that I built was the Ft 1600-same designer, Bob Brines.


As a proud new owner of a pair of single driver, high efficient speakers...

 

[rastaman]

Hi
I am curious when and where you heard the Ushers? Do you remember what amps were used with these speakers?

cheers

I heard them (Usher Be-718) with a friend when abroad recently. It was powered by Naim Nait 5. The speakers were really awesome. Very good and very musical. I liked everything about them in fact. The only thing missing for me was the deep bass probably because their frequency response is not low enough. I specifically heard Massive Attack's Mezzanine album and found the thump/deep bass lacking. If it had it then I would have picked these speakers. We even auditioned the Mini Dancer 1 with another friend and even there I did not feel they went deep enough. For everything else they were great i.e. country music, rock, rock-n-roll etc. ranging from Dire Straits, CSNY, Pink Floyd, Don Williams, Mariah Carey, etc. all of them sounded great, but not Massive Attack. I just want the rest to sound as impressive and for Massive Attack too to sound great. If the addition of a subwoofer will do the trick then by all means I'm ready for that too.

 

[rastaman]

You've answered your question yourself. Full range is not what you need. A subwoofer is what you need. There are many threads about good subwoofers at various price ranges on these forums.

I am just taking a random example, but a good pair of bookshelves like say the Ushers (X 718 or Be 718 depending on budget) with a good sub from say a Velodyne may give you the thump that you need. All the best!

You must be lucky. Every single car subwoofer I've heard to date is boomy, peaky, muddy and resonant. In a tiny space like a car, it's easy to get that effect, very impressive but wholly artificial. I wish you all the best when you search for that in a pair of speakers. Forget single drivers, you will not get it from any decent pair of speakers at any budget, because it's artificial and unnatural (but super-impressive to listen to).

Your best bet is a pair of cheap (FR?) bookshelves, and two or more large 12-15" subs. That should reach the kind of sound I think you're looking for. I'm sorry if this sounds dismissive, but a 12" sub in a 1cuft box can only boom. I'm afraid that it's only possible to recreate the same sound in a very small environment, and with a similarly boomy subwoofer.

I don't know if a well-designed pair of speakers with a flat frequency response will ever satisfy you. Chances are they won't. I hope you find what you're looking for.

Hi psychotropic & cranky,

It seems you have misunderstood my needs. I am not looking for thumping music. I am not a basshead nor am I heavy into trance/rave kind of music. Neither am I looking for loudspeaker kind of music.

I am looking for speakers that will sound great at low volumes like in the early morning before sunrise or late at night when I have to play music at low volumes. I am also looking for speakers that will sound great when played at loud volumes (not ear splitting) like in a party where a few will want to shake a leg and dance and will also sound great at moderate volumes like when played during the daytime. I also want the speakers to sound great when playing rock, jazz, funk, rap, hip-hop, country, rock-n-roll, trance and just about any kind of music thrown at it. I would want Mariah Carey to sound great with her high pitched vocals and I would want Massive Attack to sound great with their low thumping music.

Now my thinking is when I am willing to spend so much money (well maybe not very much by some people's standards) I believe there should be something that will sound good with anything thrown at it. Or are my expectations too high and no speaker can do this despite the huge costs involved? I obviously can go for 2 or 3 separate systems that will between them play every kind of music and play them well too and I might resort to something like that if I don't find what I'm looking for, but it does seem foolish to have so many systems in a single home. Instead I would very much prefer a single system that will perform very well in every department. If such a system requires the need of a musical subwoofer then I will consider that too, but initially I am looking at speakers without a sub.

I am beginning to believe the EP CS2.3 are what I am looking for and will try to audition them ASAP.

Hopefully I have not offended you or anyone and you will all look to help me in my quest for a complete all in one solution.

 

[heliumflight]

Hi psychotropic & cranky,

It seems you have misunderstood my needs. I am not looking for thumping music. I am not a basshead nor am I heavy into trance/rave kind of music. Neither am I looking for loudspeaker kind of music.

I am looking for speakers that will sound great at low volumes like in the early morning before sunrise or late at night when I have to play music at low volumes. I am also looking for speakers that will sound great when played at loud volumes (not ear splitting) like in a party where a few will want to shake a leg and dance and will also sound great at moderate volumes like when played during the daytime. I also want the speakers to sound great when playing rock, jazz, funk, rap, hip-hop, country, rock-n-roll, trance and just about any kind of music thrown at it. I would want Mariah Carey to sound great with her high pitched vocals and I would want Massive Attack to sound great with their low thumping music.


Rastaman after reading the above I'm getting a feeling you are looking for deep bass < 30hz rather than bass extension.


Please look at the frequency response of speakers, it is not everything but will give you a fair idea!

Kindest regards

 

[psychotropic]

purely out of academic curiosity, how much does the 2.3 go for?

Hi,
In that case i too would suggest the Emerald physics 2.3. Will satisfy the above and a little more. Tremendous scale and impact and at the current MRP quite a deal.
I say this cause the only EP in mumbai is with my friend who is happily breaking it in!!!
Rgds

 

[jai1611]

If you like full rangers, check out some of the Thiel speakers. Its the only 2-driver speaker that I've heard that retain the coherence of a single driver. A lot of effort seems to have been put in to nail the time alignment and it seems to have paid off. The particular pair I heard was beyond your budget. However, the cheaper offerings should still be worth a try. Also try out the Quad ESL's. Not recommended for a house with kids or even slight space constraints though. Dont know current pricing.

@ Cranky, with car audio, a lot of the end result depends on the final tuning and installation. It takes a lot of time and patience to get it right, but its possible to not hear a sub in a car install. I spent the better part of six months getting my car audio system tuned close to perfection (20mins a day just sitting, listening and tweaking). Because most people getting a sub do so for the artificial thump, most installers will do exactly that. You need to pay a lot of attention to the enclosure design, damping, low pass filter settings and gains to get it right. Once you do, the sub disappears and the artificial boom that you refer to along with it. If you are coming down to Mumbai any time soon, would be happy to share what I've done in my car and you can form your own opinions.

 

[neo]

If you like full rangers, check out some of the Thiel speakers. Its the only 2-driver speaker that I've heard that retain the coherence of a single driver. A lot of effort seems to have been put in to nail the time alignment and it seems to have paid off. The particular pair I heard was beyond your budget. However, the cheaper offerings should still be worth a try. Also try out the Quad ESL's. Not recommended for a house with kids or even slight space constraints though. Dont know current pricing.

@ Cranky, with car audio, a lot of the end result depends on the final tuning and installation. It takes a lot of time and patience to get it right, but its possible to not hear a sub in a car install. I spent the better part of six months getting my car audio system tuned close to perfection (20mins a day just sitting, listening and tweaking). Because most people getting a sub do so for the artificial thump, most installers will do exactly that. You need to pay a lot of attention to the enclosure design, damping, low pass filter settings and gains to get it right. Once you do, the sub disappears and the artificial boom that you refer to along with it. If you are coming down to Mumbai any time soon, would be happy to share what I've done in my car and you can form your own opinions.

Hey! what components have you used in your car install??? Which car?
Cheers