M22759 based Speaker Cable

I buy my m22759/11 wire from eBay, and very good is "Steve" at Apex Junior in price ....$0.50 a foot for 12 AWG

Apex Jr has increase the price to $4.60 a foot. Annoying!
Still not bad for a cable by most standards though.




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Apex Jr has increase the price to $4.60 a foot. Annoying!
Still not bad for a cable by most standards though.




.

No problem Nikhil. WE should 100% bypass Apex Jr. at that price level. The rest of the USA population is always offering their miscellaneous M22759/11 remnants on eBay !!!

I looked 2 weeks ago for another Forum Member on eBay, and there was sufficient offerings. I was able to find 12 AWG at about a dollar a foot, pre shipping.

Would love to have you experience this TRIO Mil Spec, music-listening-wise, in India.

IF you want me to shop for you on eBay. I will be glad to personally assist you, by 1) first determining / defining your specific requirements, footage , AWGs, and color choices and 2) by me finding the best Auctions on eBay to REFER to you, that meet ALL your requirements, at a decent price such as we have discussed.

Jeff
 
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NO, we are NOT eight for eight. We are one (you) speaking for an alleged eight. And, while I can't speak for others, I prefer to hear testimonials first hand and directly from the actual audiophiles who did the comparative listening. I would also prefer to be able to ask questions and have them answered in an interactive forum such as this. So, it would be a lot more beneficial and instructive if you would just let us know where these alleged eight rave testimonials can be found.
The cable doesn't cost much. Won't it be easier for you to just build one and conclude for yourself?
 
Apex Jr has increase the price to $4.60 a foot. Annoying!
Still not bad for a cable by most standards though.




.

Hi again Nikhil,

I took a look again more carefully at your post.

The wire you refer to is Apex Jr on eBay.

In previous correspondence I suggested to never deal with Steve from eBay auctions of his. I deal directly from his store's wire list, posted in the HFV thread by me. Usually it is cheaper.

In addition to Steve, a single individual, there are many on-going eBay sellers, and one can " shop ", be patient, and sometimes get nice wire cost deals. I have.

Also, the precise wire you have referred us to is something NOT suggested, as it is two conductor and shielded. WE always use single stranded. No need to execute shield stripping, and ......you can perhaps choose colors a bit easier.

Also, $4.60 is closer to $4.4975 a foot, but this is for TWO conductors, which is $2.25 a foot for 12 AWG . Simply a " Pass " over-it auction.

Again, one can try their luck calling APEX JR and refer to his store's website advertisement , OR, have some FUN shopping / bargain hunting on eBay.

As I have previously mentioned, if you are serious and will follow through, I can refer you to eBay auctions decent to consider, and YOU make choices as you see fit. Or, find the best offerings for yourself on eBay.

Keep in mind one USD a foot for 12 AWG, is my "general " idea . Little less per foot, for higher AWG, like the 14, or sometimes I may order 16 AWG for tweeters.

Have fun.

Jeff
 
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Thanks Jeff but I'll pass. Not planning to do the TRIO but was just looking at trying out the 12 AWG wire to compare with my tinned copper speaker cable (Belden 8477). Will try and poke around to see if there is something available locally at a sensible price.



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The cable doesn't cost much. Won't it be easier for you to just build one and conclude for yourself?
My interest extends way beyond the question of what these cables may do in my system. Also, without having information about the speakers and electronics with which the cables are used, and without the opportunity to engage in Q&A exchanges, there is very little to be learned.
 
Latest DIY testimonial, written to me two hours ago, read for the first time by me only five minutes ago ............

TRIOS, 12+12+14, two times 57 1/8th inches long, polarities no touch, on his Klipsch - Cornwalls ( I believe is his speaker model ), uses a Blueglow DIY ( on line ) KT88 SE amp , his verbatim comments, first reaction, cut and pasted :


Jeff!!! Jeff!!!



I finally got the triple threat Mil Spec speaker cables completed and installed! Wowie wow wow! This was indeed a STEP CHANGE! The very first note of the very first reference song was more lively and crystal clear. The soundstage erupted in every direction!!




Wow! For a couple of hundred bucks, to be able to make reference cables like this! And indeed, this was using relatively cheap connectors.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


The DIYer in Post #2 of this thread, ( Eric ) told us his DIY TRIOS start to sounded better to him after a break in, he did 50 hours, which is decent.
See Eric's report verbatim, here : https://www.hifivision.com/threads/m22759-based-speaker-cable.91266/#post-1020971


Have fun hearing these, I like mine a lot on my Voice of the Theater Horn speakers. Report to us how TRIOS sounded to you, my audio friends in India.


“Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.”William Shakespeare, Measure for
Measure.

EDIT : I forgot to post, this DIY inexpensive TRIO is now a confirmed audio-world higher performance wipe-out, TEN for TEN. Pretty good. A truthful reminder from :

Jeffrey Medwin
 
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Thanks for the info Jeff. Silver coated Copper is an interesting design.
Looked up M22759/11/12 online and found that it is an aerospace wire (SAE AS22759).

One manufacturer is Harbour Industries out of Shelburne, VT
Data Sheet: https://www.harbourind.com/images/stories/datasheets/M22759_Extruded_PTFE.pdf#zoom=100

Your cable recipe (12+12+14 per pole at 114 1/4 inch) reminds me of Arthur Salvatore's "Cobra" cable.
Not sure if I would be able to take on building a cable right now but it's an interesting concept.
I might just try out the standard12 AWG version when I get the chance.


.
I have been using this cable past 1+ year and am completely hooked on to them. This may come as a surprise to many - my single core 0 5mm x 52 polycab 99.97% pure copper wire was more bright than the silver plated cable. My polycab cable is lying on the loft and am looking for an unsuspecting buyer to cover my investment. Lol!

If you wish to see and hear them yourself then you can consider contacting me.
 
I have been using this cable past 1+ year and am completely hooked on to them. This may come as a surprise to many - my single core 0 5mm x 52 polycab 99.97% pure copper wire was more bright than the silver plated cable. My polycab cable is lying on the loft and am looking for an unsuspecting buyer to cover my investment. Lol!

If you wish to see and hear them yourself then you can consider contacting me.

Nice Invite . Generous .

" To actually hear and listen to them. "

To my limited knowledge, I think at this moment you are the only audio enthusiast in India, using these cables. Hari, .......were we at the stage of doing triple runs ( TRIOS ) , when you made your cables earlier, or do you have DIY doubles only ??? ( 12+12+14...... VS ...... earlier 12 +12 )

Amplifier - wise, you use your modified version of a mid-2019 USA-designed DC SE KT88 amp. So, people get to hear that - for the first time in India. A very unique tube amp !!!

I took a 6FQ7 triode and Directly Coupled it to a KT-88, tube - operating conservatively. The KT88 is in Pentode, beneficially without any usual NFB paths in the entire amp ( film-bypassed Rks ). Amp has a full blown L.S.E.S. Power Supply. Yours is very likely the only tube amplifier in all of India with dual 6 Ohm supply chokes, and C1 and C2 GTO bypass caps .

Gee I really wish I knew what your personal amp implementation ( - slightly different than mine - ) sounds like, VS: what we execute in the USA.

When visitors get to hear your system, its not only the TRIOS, but also your DIY SE KT88 amplifier, and your individualized implementation of open baffle drivers. All three. Hari's DIY honest work - and his fun.

Best wishes to all,

Jeff
 
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I have been using this cable past 1+ year and am completely hooked on to them. This may come as a surprise to many - my single core 0 5mm x 52 polycab 99.97% pure copper wire was more bright than the silver plated cable. My polycab cable is lying on the loft and am looking for an unsuspecting buyer to cover my investment. Lol!

If you wish to see and hear them yourself then you can consider contacting me.
Would you please elaborate on what you mean by "more bright"? Specifically are you referring to a subjective frequency response difference, a difference in the subjective level and/or type of distortion, or something else? Also, are you able to hear a difference between these cables that are 57" in length and those that are twice that length?
 
Latest DIY testimonial, written to me two hours ago, read for the first time by me only five minutes ago ............

TRIOS, 12+12+14, two times 57 1/8th inches long, polarities no touch, on his Klipsch - Cornwalls ( I believe is his speaker model ), uses a Blueglow DIY ( on line ) KT88 SE amp , his verbatim comments, first reaction, cut and pasted :


Jeff!!! Jeff!!!



I finally got the triple threat Mil Spec speaker cables completed and installed! Wowie wow wow! This was indeed a STEP CHANGE! The very first note of the very first reference song was more lively and crystal clear. The soundstage erupted in every direction!!




Wow! For a couple of hundred bucks, to be able to make reference cables like this! And indeed, this was using relatively cheap connectors.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


The DIYer in Post #2 of this thread, ( Eric ) told us his DIY TRIOS start to sounded better to him after a break in, he did 50 hours, which is decent.
See Eric's report verbatim, here : https://www.hifivision.com/threads/m22759-based-speaker-cable.91266/#post-1020971


Have fun hearing these, I like mine a lot on my Voice of the Theater Horn speakers. Report to us how TRIOS sounded to you, my audio friends in India.


“Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.”William Shakespeare, Measure for
Measure.

EDIT : I forgot to post, this DIY inexpensive TRIO is now a confirmed audio-world higher performance wipe-out, TEN for TEN. Pretty good. A truthful reminder from :

Jeffrey Medwin
NO, it's NOT ten for ten. It's just ONE (you) speaking for an alleged ten. When it comes to testimonials, I prefer that they are first hand and provided directly from the actual audiophiles who did the comparative listening. . So, it would be a lot more beneficial and instructive if you just let us know where these alleged TEN testimonials can be found.
 
Would you please elaborate on what you mean by "more bright"? Specifically are you referring to a subjective frequency response difference, a difference in the subjective level and/or type of distortion, or something else? Also, are you able to hear a difference between these cables that are 57" in length and those that are twice that length?


There is only ONE audio system I am aware of today, that is actually good enough , and a person with close to perfect hearing, who I would trust to ascertain by listening the 57 1/8th ( and 114 1/4 ) inch differences aurally. Yes, this source exists, my present audio Mentor. He discovered two Fulton lengths were better than one, even when applied to the AC cable feeding power to his DC SE KT150 amplifier !!

For everyone's information, Mr. Robert Fulton was of strong Christian faith, and a close personal friend. I knew that Mr. Bob Fulton would never ever mislead me on his lab research, regarding 57 1/8th inches,, and / or his use of his 2 Gig Tek scope to view audio.

So I implicitly believed and followed Bob's inputs, mainly due to our common interest in advancing the audio arts.

After Bob's death from cancer in September 1988, I routinely implemented his wire lengths in my builds. From 1988 on, Jeff proceeded by faith , based solely upon (1) the genius and (2) the Godly morality of the man, Mr. Fulton..

However, it took from 1988 until 2019 for me to receive a credible listening report on 57 1/8th inches. How happy and pleased was I in 2019, ESPECIALLY after a full 31 years. Another person I intuitively TRUSTED - has now in 2019 aurally confirmed - what I had been faithfully doing , and also AURALLY confirmed Bob's original lab work on lengths......... and in my trust in Bob !!

It has been my policy on HFV, to not respond to any posts Dr. Gary does, to ignore Gary ( as I told HFV Moderators I would do. many months ago. ) I believe Gary, you have extremely little feel or passion for audio. In your lifetime, Gary has never developed a home audio system I admired. I JUDGE AUDIOPHILES AUDIO KNOWLEDGE, BY THE SYSTEMS THEY DEVELOP IN THEIR HOME.

I believe Gary solely posts to discredit me, and show FMs how he are technically superior to me. Gary's motivations and intentions, which after 42 years of association, I read loud and clear and correctly. Gary's intentions may be amusing, for some of the most intuitive and smarter Forum Members to decipher.

So, after many months, this response / post breaks my policy of ignoring people such as Gary, ( or any FMs I do not trust or like, to avoid conflict, and maintain an acceptable posting status on HFV. )

I seek to post my personal audio findings, good stuff, as I am advancing in age - 78 .

Other FMs do similarly " ignoring to keep the peace ". Certainly there are many who do not believe or misunderstand ME !!! You, Gary, are getting out of hand, and enjoying your hours doing so. I post to share High End audio topics that I find ultra worthy. You post to discredit me whenever possible. And you have never heard one note of music from any of my DIY doings. That is dumb.

I will not answer any additional questions or posts you pose Gary. Your perceived ill-intent, in your mind and heart, makes me weary.

I wish Moderators would simply ban you from any posts associated with me, but yet, fully allow you to post away on HFV. I wonder how much you will contribute, in a positive manner ? So far, I do not recall more than about three worthy sentences, regarding my work, from you.

On the other side of the coin, I will be happy to answer other FMs questions about whatever seemingly " odd ball " things I post herein. I will answer at my discretion, based solely upon how I perceive someone's intent and sincerity .

I have done a few MAJOR HFV DIY threads in the last several years. That stereo 6005 DIY build, is a fabulous piece as some people will soon discover, and this Thread's unparalleled value / highest performing TRIO DIY wiring. Hear them both, and Jeff easily receives total vindication, if needed, by that listener !!!

Jeff
 
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I am curious to try the 12-12-14 each polarity speaker cables to compare with my present Eurocable after Beldens were a let down. (Bass was gone). Though my experience isn’t good with silver plated ones. I guess 57 1/8 inch would do but isn’t 1/8” is hard to implement by the book ? 1/8” is like 3.175mm. What’s the deal with 1/8 and 1/4 ?

57 1/8th inches is what Robert had laboratory-determined. Two lengths to the speaker ( sounding better than one - was aurally determined 2019 by my current / second audio Mentor ) becomes 114 1/4 inch. A single length of 57 1/8th, if it fits amp to speaker, is audibly bested by a double length, which is the suggested design. Other High End audio business people, are also very aware of this , as was previously posted. Not intuitive, but turns out to be true..

This 12+12+14 wire combination is balanced, and the TRIO, being 8 AWG, is just about ideal in Transfer Efficiency , and decent bass response.

Q : What was your tested EuroCable and Belden's total AWG Yogibear?? Tell us all please !! Was it perhaps ( guessing ) to be 12 AWG?

That 12 AWG might be enough AWG for a single 8 inch driver, for someone beginning in audio. You are far beyond that.

If there is any way I can help you eBay auction access the proper wire at the best cost, as I did for Hari, please ask me !!


Jeff
 
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I have been using this cable past 1+ year and am completely hooked on to them. This may come as a surprise to many - my single core 0 5mm x 52 polycab 99.97% pure copper wire was more bright than the silver plated cable. My polycab cable is lying on the loft and am looking for an unsuspecting buyer to cover my investment. Lol!

If you wish to see and hear them yourself then you can consider contacting me.
Make a 4 wired braided power chord. Trust me.
 
Make a 4 wired braided power chord. Trust me.


I am unable to find out what sort of system you run at home. AMPS? SPEAKERS?? Mine is listed at the bottom, routinely.

Q1 : How does one use HFV to discover what a FM poster owns / uses ???

Q2: Keeping an open mind, since you are a Member since 2006, and you were sincere, what is your AWG of the braided wire power cords? Can you please post a photo or two, for us to view?

As I understand it, braiding increases capacitance of two conductors. But I do not know EE - wise, the effects on sonics.

On my DIY TRIO cables, with the two polarities touching only one time, for just half an inch, it's easily a 20% degrade to MY high end aurally. YMMV. It RUINS my personal interest in listening to audio. But then, look at that 6005 amp thread, and notice how I multiple bypass every amplifier film capacitor's position. Doing so, I GET high end response that lesser implementations lose.

Here we go : look at my own A7-8's tweeter crossover's capacitor section , photo posted below.

Shown is current implementation of the " C " in the crossover's L/C 12 dB roll off. Does it use one tweeter roll off cap for the "C ", like 95% of speaker / audio listeners use ?? Heck NO !!

About EIGHT carefully selected film caps exist ........ where " high end " German audiophiles, and some USA ones, may use one oil cap. Count them in the photo and note the decreasing capacities ??? This is not off topic.

Without a great system, that CAN play the highs, how can one make valid progress in audio design? Answer. You can't.

It all starts with and takes a GREAT source feed and great tube amp design, as part of this wire and audio judgement equation.

8 Caps DESIGNATED..JPG

The pictured-above thin gray wire is m22759/11/16, ........16 AWG Mil Spec..................... which feeds a ALTEC 802D compression tweeter, about 106 dB rated, freshly re-magnetized by GPA. Cap selections, ( and individually - each cap's best polarity optimization ), is done by ear on music.

Answers to Q1 and Q2 above ???? Thanks.

Jeff
 
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There is only ONE audio system I am aware of today, that is actually good enough , and a person with close to perfect hearing, who I would trust to ascertain by listening the 57 1/8th ( and 114 1/4 ) inch differences aurally. Yes, this source exists, my present audio Mentor. He discovered two Fulton lengths were better than one, even when applied to the AC cable feeding power to his DC SE KT150 amplifier !!

For everyone's information, Mr. Robert Fulton was of strong Christian faith, and a close personal friend. I knew that Mr. Bob Fulton would never ever mislead me on his lab research, regarding 57 1/8th inches,, and / or his use of his 2 Gig Tek scope to view audio.

So I implicitly believed and followed Bob's inputs, mainly due to our common interest in advancing the audio arts.

After Bob's death from cancer in September 1988, I routinely implemented his wire lengths in my builds. From 1988 on, Jeff proceeded by faith , based solely upon (1) the genius and (2) the Godly morality of the man, Mr. Fulton..

However, it took from 1988 until 2019 for me to receive a credible listening report on 57 1/8th inches. How happy and pleased was I in 2019, ESPECIALLY after a full 31 years. Another person I intuitively TRUSTED - has now in 2019 aurally confirmed - what I had been faithfully doing , and also AURALLY confirmed Bob's original lab work on lengths......... and in my trust in Bob !!

It has been my policy on HFV, to not respond to any posts Dr. Gary does, to ignore Gary ( as I told HFV Moderators I would do. many months ago. ) I believe Gary, you have extremely little feel or passion for audio. In your lifetime, Gary has never developed a home audio system I admired. I JUDGE AUDIOPHILES AUDIO KNOWLEDGE, BY THE SYSTEMS THEY DEVELOP IN THEIR HOME.

I believe Gary solely posts to discredit me, and show FMs how he are technically superior to me. Gary's motivations and intentions, which after 42 years of association, I read loud and clear and correctly. Gary's intentions may be amusing, for some of the most intuitive and smarter Forum Members to decipher.

So, after many months, this response / post breaks my policy of ignoring people such as Gary, ( or any FMs I do not trust or like, to avoid conflict, and maintain an acceptable posting status on HFV. )

I seek to post my personal audio findings, good stuff, as I am advancing in age - 78 .

Other FMs do similarly " ignoring to keep the peace ". Certainly there are many who do not believe or misunderstand ME !!! You, Gary, are getting out of hand, and enjoying your hours doing so. I post to share High End audio topics that I find ultra worthy. You post to discredit me whenever possible. And you have never heard one note of music from any of my DIY doings. That is dumb.

I will not answer any additional questions or posts you pose Gary. Your perceived ill-intent, in your mind and heart, makes me weary.

I wish Moderators would simply ban you from any posts associated with me, but yet, fully allow you to post away on HFV. I wonder how much you will contribute, in a positive manner ? So far, I do not recall more than about three worthy sentences, regarding my work, from you.

On the other side of the coin, I will be happy to answer other FMs questions about whatever seemingly " odd ball " things I post herein. I will answer at my discretion, based solely upon how I perceive someone's intent and sincerity .

I have done a few MAJOR HFV DIY threads in the last several years. That stereo 6005 DIY build, is a fabulous piece as some people will soon discover, and this Thread's unparalleled value / highest performing TRIO DIY wiring. Hear them both, and Jeff easily receives total vindication, if needed, by that listener !!!

Jeff
I would appreciate it (and I assume so also would other forum member) if you would allow Hari Iyer to answer questions that are directed to him and that pertain to his listening experiences and to his audio system.
 
I am curious to try the 12-12-14 each polarity speaker cables to compare with my present Eurocable after Beldens were a let down. (Bass was gone). Though my experience isn’t good with silver plated ones. I guess 57 1/8 inch would do but isn’t 1/8” is hard to implement by the book ? 1/8” is like 3.175mm. What’s the deal with 1/8 and 1/4 ?
Those are good questions, and maybe you can do some experimenting and provide some answers based on your own listening tests. However, you should note that there is some uncertainty regarding the so-called "Fulton Length". Specifically, according to my notes from a phone conversation that I had several decades ago with Jack Anderson, who worked for Fulton and who was involved with the fabrication of the Fulton interconnects and speaker cables, the reference length that Anderson gave me is 57.2 inches. I do not know if this matters, but if 1/8" relative to the 57" matters, maybe the precise length (57.2" vs 57.125") matters as well.
Another detail which may have more significance has to do with the nominal lengths of the speaker cables that Fulton sold, which were 14 feet (three Fulton Lengths), 28 feet (six Fulton Lengths), 42 feet (nine Fulton Lengths), and 57 feet (twelve Fulton Lengths). What is particularly noteworthy is that none of the speaker cables that Fulton manufactured and sold were two Fulton Lenghs (114") long, which is what is now being proclaimed as the ideal length for speaker cables as well as for power cords. Apparently, for whatever reason, Fulton, who actually discovered the magical 57" length failed to realize that two 57" lengths were better than one. One can only imagine what Fulton would say about this gross oversight if he were alive today.
 
I am unable to find out what sort of system you run at home. AMPS? SPEAKERS?? Mine is listed at the bottom, routinely.

Q1 : How does one use HFV to discover what a FM poster owns / uses ???

Q2: Keeping an open mind, since you are a Member since 2006, and you were sincere, what is your AWG of the braided wire power cords? Can you please post a photo or two, for us to view?

As I understand it, braiding increases capacitance of two conductors. But I do not know EE - wise, the effects on sonics.
Hi,
I use 14/16AWG for amps and 18AWG for cdp/dvdp/dac.

I have cadence hybrid electrostats paired with a Primaluna Prologue 2 with 6550’s.

 
Hi,
I use 14/16AWG for amps and 18AWG for cdp/dvdp/dac.

I have cadence hybrid electrostats paired with a Primaluna Prologue 2 with 6550’s.

It is good to learn what you posted. I just looked up your Cadence speaker. A seven inch driver with a ESL panel ( nicely ) time-aligned positioned on top, crossed over at 1.8 kHZ. With a rated efficiency of only 86.5 dB, I would like to suggest that 14 and 16 AWG will not be the best solution, to optimally couple electrical energy from your P-P 40 Watt 6550 amplifier to your speaker. The TRIO wiring in this thread, is the equivalent of 8 AWG, and over four decades, that is about what I have found is needed to ideally couple any decent amplifier, to a decent speaker, to get full performance from the bass notes on up.

Developing an 8 AWG wire for audio use is quite a challenge, as we want the cable to be wideband at both extremes of the sound spectrum, but be balanced and natural sounding. Not just play the midrange. The TRIO, DIY built as I described it herein, is the only approach I am aware of, that fits the requirement. Its been user tested - 10 for 10......... in decent systems.

My original post's query was, what was the AWG of the power cord braided you suggested, and what does it look like, the braid, etc.

BTW, off topic, but I am familiar with electrostats. In the 1970s, after I sold my first-purchased new speaker ( 15 inch Tannoy Monitor Golds in GRF factory enclosures ) I purchased used KLH Model 9s, advertised as a full range ESL. I later found a used second pair, and ended up running " double KLH9s", which back in the day was quite the audio "In" thing to do.

After the double KLH9s, I owned Infinity Systems " Servo Static 1" electrostatic , with upgraded "1A" ESL panels, and a large ( 18 Inch ? ) system sub woofer. That was mostly ESL in playback. In 1975, Gordon Holt of Stereophile Magazine gave them an " A" rating, along with the new " Fulton J Modular " large loudspeaker,......... JUST those two speakers. I became associated with Robert Fulton, until he passed away in 1988.

Here is a photo of me picking up what was to be my second pair of KLH9s, early 1970s, on Venice Blvd., in Venice, CA, a town in the Los Angeles, CA area. I sure was happy and excited-looking, anticipating usage of that second pair. Having a convertible vehicle ( a 1961 356B Roadster ) , helped fit-them-in for a short journey home.


( Gee, the KLH9 transport-photo is in Adobe Acrobat, and I can not get it to paste here, in that form. I WILL TRY TO GET A COMPUTER SAVVY AUDIOPHILE FRIEND TO HELP GET IT IN A BETTER FORMAT. CUTE PHOTO for sure. )

Jeff
 

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