Measurement freaks, this is for you...

[murali]

I came across a strange website (hydrogenaudio.org) where the rule is nothing but measurement based performance assessment! No points for human ear assessment! Those who believe measurements are what determine the performance of audio equipment's performance better join. I presume the members are scientists!

Good luck and cheers.
murali

 

[unleash_me]

Not a scientist but a nice forum to be in

 

[marsilians]

I came across a strange website (hydrogenaudio.org) ....murali

THis is the same site that hosts and supports foobar2000 so it is pretty familiar with users of HFV.

Now regarding measurements based assessment of audio, it is still subjective as the final destination would not even be close to the measurement lab nor would the sources and different components in the chain. Its good to have a little of measurements esp. when minimising all these variables but trusting an equipment solely on that is a lunatic journey at best.

Now did someone measure the measurement instruments to ensure they do measure correctly

 

[spirovious]

Yes ,I have read some review there.

 

[suri]

Its good to have a little of measurements esp. when minimising all these variables but trusting an equipment solely on that is a lunatic journey at best

that is so true!

quite some time back - i put together fully tested and measured DIY (at zaph audio) - and they sounded "not good".

now, krutke of zaph audio is obsessive about getting his designs to measure ruler flat across frequencies, and goes to great lengths to achieve this - and, finally, it does not sound right - not just to me, but the majority who listened to it (all these people are owners of good audio systems).

so yes, measurements are okay to give you a direction - but do not tell the whole story (perhaps the truth lies in the ability of the tweeter and the design of the front baffle/inert cabinet - insofar as speakers are concerned?)

 

[arj]

...so yes, measurements are okay to give you a direction - but do not tell the whole story ...

Suri, from my limited experience, could not agree with you more on this aspect.
Measurement is not the Be all as , IMHO,we have not even learnt what all we need to measure, but they do give some datapoints to help in the final design.

 

[doors666]

i agree, measurements dont tell the whole story, but some of the numbers are definitely worth looking at.

Auditioning is even more unreliable as compared to the measurement. How many times we have heard a component in the showroom, loved it, and bring it to home and it sucks. Hell, companies like bose have made a freakin' business out of it.:lol:

PS: a newbie can probably make a better choice looking at the numbers rather than listening.:lol:

 

[square_wave]

THis is the same site that hosts and supports foobar2000 so it is pretty familiar with users of HFV.

Now regarding measurements based assessment of audio, it is still subjective as the final destination would not even be close to the measurement lab nor would the sources and different components in the chain. Its good to have a little of measurements esp. when minimising all these variables but trusting an equipment solely on that is a lunatic journey at best.

Now did someone measure the measurement instruments to ensure they do measure correctly

To add to this:

Has everything that needs to be measured in audio completely understood yet ?

 

[alpha1]

What they believe in is ABX results.
Which, I believe, removes all bias.

Now most of the audio enthusiasts (or audiophiles) believe that ABX doesn't allow them to experience the overall feeling/sensation.

To which I would respond by saying that measn by seeing a sleek hi-fi amp, or a speaker, you hear music much better. Which again means that the actual audio sensation may be same, but is getting masked by visual cues.

 

[asliarun]

I came across a strange website (hydrogenaudio.org) where the rule is nothing but measurement based performance assessment! No points for human ear assessment! Those who believe measurements are what determine the performance of audio equipment's performance better join. I presume the members are scientists!

Good luck and cheers.
murali

I'm actually unqualified to participate in this discussion, but I have been reading their discussions off and on, and wanted to point out that their stance is quite different from what you are saying.

To quote from their FAQ:

"We're an objectivist audio community here. We don't necesarily believe that everything can be measured (psychoacoustic codecs prevent that anyway), but we do believe that subective opinions should be backed up by rigorous tests, intended to remove all possible bias from human subjective judgements and opinions."

Link: Subjective vs Objective opinions - Hydrogenaudio Forums

FAQ point 8:
"Hydrogenaudio is supposed to be an objectively minded community that relies on double-blind testing and relevant methods of comparison in discussion about sound quality. The usual "audiophile" speak of non-audio related terms which are completely subjective and open to redefinition on a whim, are useless for any sort of progression in discussion.

This rule is the very core of Hydrogenaudio, so it is very important that you follow it. "

Link: Hydrogenaudio Forum Terms Of Service - Hydrogenaudio Forums

Considering their strict stance on ABX double blind testing as the only measure (while ignoring technical measurements and ignoring other forms of subjective measurements), I find their discussions quite valuable to read.

Edit: Just wanted to add that I am not trying to promote (or discredit) hydrogenaudio in this post. I don't have the depth of knowledge to make such statements. Just wanted to clarify what the forum stands for, that's all.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

... Has everything that needs to be measured in audio completely understood yet ?

Good point.

Could go further, even! Has everything that needs to be measured in Hearing been completely understood yet ?

 

[alpha1]

I'm actually unqualified to participate in this discussion, but I have been reading their discussions off and on, and wanted to point out that their stance is quite different from what you are saying.

To quote from their FAQ:

"We're an objectivist audio community here. We don't necesarily believe that everything can be measured (psychoacoustic codecs prevent that anyway), but we do believe that subective opinions should be backed up by rigorous tests, intended to remove all possible bias from human subjective judgements and opinions."

Link: Subjective vs Objective opinions - Hydrogenaudio Forums

FAQ point 8:
"Hydrogenaudio is supposed to be an objectively minded community that relies on double-blind testing and relevant methods of comparison in discussion about sound quality. The usual "audiophile" speak of non-audio related terms which are completely subjective and open to redefinition on a whim, are useless for any sort of progression in discussion.

This rule is the very core of Hydrogenaudio, so it is very important that you follow it. "

Link: Hydrogenaudio Forum Terms Of Service - Hydrogenaudio Forums

Considering their strict stance on ABX double blind testing as the only measure (while ignoring technical measurements and ignoring other forms of subjective measurements), I find their discussions quite valuable to read.

Edit: Just wanted to add that I am not trying to promote (or discredit) hydrogenaudio in this post. I don't have the depth of knowledge to make such statements. Just wanted to clarify what the forum stands for, that's all.

Thank goodness, at least one person understood the purpose of Hydrogen audio forum - to cut the subjective bullshit described by flowery language (usually).


Is there anyone here opposed to double blind testing?
If you feel ABX testing is about listening to one track for 20 sec and then switching over to another - and this doesn't allow you to get involved/immersed in the music fully - you are wrong.