Mission accomplished after over a year.

[Mi_10]

Thanks! It was an enjoyable learning curve learning about the various components.

Couldn't hide my surprise, as your Source, Amp and Speakers were topping my contention list for quite sometime. Unfortunately none of the above were available for Audition here locally. would love to audition sometime when i come to Mumbai.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Great sounding tubes. Only drawback is, they are quite microphonic and you should have a good stock of them as they will wear out faster.

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Couldn't hide my surprise, as your Source, Amp and Speakers were topping my contention list for quite sometime. Unfortunately none of the above were available for Audition here locally. would love to audition sometime when i come to Mumbai.

That’s an interesting coincidence. But the sound with and without the tube pre are entirely different.

 

[arj]

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2. The nuances in the vocals (modulations by the singer, the microtones etc) get dampened.
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This is most probably because the blanket is absorbing some frequencies..if it were possible , moving the speaker such that they are 2-3 feet from the surface of the TV might give a different effect but may not be practical unless you pull out the speakers for listening sessions and put them back in when done.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

This is most probably because the blanket is absorbing some frequencies..if it were possible , moving the speaker such that they are 2-3 feet from the surface of the TV might give a different effect but may not be practical unless you pull out the speakers for listening sessions and put them back in when done.

My room space and furniture arrangement doesn’t allow that. I wanted to achieve best possible reason without impacting the rest of the ‘living’ in the living room.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

My room space and furniture arrangement doesn’t allow that. I wanted to achieve best possible reason without impacting the rest of the ‘living’ in the living room.

Actually the speakers are both about 2 ft away (each) from the edge of the TV. And about 6 inches in front. What’s not possible for me is to take them further in front.

 

[arj]

Actually the speakers are both about 2 ft away (each) from the edge of the TV. And about 6 inches in front. What’s not possible for me is to take them further in front.

Yeah I got that... and the aesthetics in a room are very important as well and not be ignored ! At any point in the future if you do think of a redoing your room, you should consider a corner placement of the speakers. ir firing in diagonally as well

At this point only take this as theory as it can tend to remove many problems and add some of its own but it takes the room walls out of equation . I had tried this with my earlier speakers ( merlin MMe) in a smallish room ie 11x13x9

http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm

BTW since i know you are a thinker, you will find some great content here to tickle the audiophile dedicated grey matter http://www.decware.com/newsite/articles.html

 

[Imtiyaz Ahmad]

Congrats Sachin
I am also planning to upgrade my system.Can you please indicate the total cost of your upgraded system.Moreover how well will your upgraded system respond to bollywood audio particularly the Castles.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Congrats Sachin
I am also planning to upgrade my system.Can you please indicate the total cost of your upgraded system.Moreover how well will your upgraded system respond to bollywood audio particularly the Castles.

Imtiyaz, when I first auditioned the speaker, I was impressed with how the vocals sounded on it. Out of my CD collection I took along, the Castle (with the same Audiolab amplifier, without a separate DAC and tube preamp then) sounded so sweet, eapecially a Ghazal album of Noorjehan and other Pakistani lady legends, that I was sold on it. It was also good VFM.

However. how the speakers sound today is a result of all the components and connectors/cables in it now. Changing any one of them will change the sound. But as it is right now, I think certain genres (jazz, classical, country, singer-songwriter, blues sound the best on it. Next, classical rock, heavy metal and fusion sounds pretty good, and am happy. Coming to Bollywood, I find most new albums (80s onwards) overdone - with the musicality overpowered by mindless instrumentation. Though I have a lot of new Bollywood CDs, I feel an highly resolving system just amplifies (and makes it difficult to ignore) these glaring shortcomings. But at least these are well recorded (though on horrible disc quality that goes bad with few spins). In short, they sound too bright on my system.

Then there’s the melodious old Bollywood (upto 60s) which are extremely rich in musicality but horrible in recording quality. I don’t see much point in playing these on my system. As the source sound becomes the limitation and there’s not much the system can do till the albums are remastered. I do have a few CDs (eg Saigal) which I play once in a while. But always keep wondering why no one ever worked ok remastering these like what say RVG does with Jazz of the same vintage.

And now that brings us to the sweet spot in Bollywood music - the 70s. This is where the recording quality got better, the songs were still melodious with sparse arrangement, but one which had started experimenting - the RD, KA era. And these are the ones that sound the best on the system. For example Ijaazat, Masoom, Aandhi. Ghar, Satyam Shivam Sundaram, Qurbani etc al sound gorgeous. I am ready to contend that these sound as good and as rich with CDs on my system as they sound with LPs on TTs. I do not feel the need to go the LP way due to this. Except that there are more LPs than CDs available of the not so famous albums of this era.

Of course there are rare modern albums (like Satya or Maachis by Vishal, Lekin, Maya Memsaab by Hridaynath, Sur/Roja/Taal, even some newer ones like Morning Raga, Hazaaron Khwaishein, Guzaarish, Citylights etc that I find in the above (desired) category. These are rich, but not overdone. They sound musical, and not weird on a good resolving system.

Remember, as the system sound improves, the limitations of the singers start becoming increasingly glaring and at some point you can’t listen to them any further on your system. I learnt to appreciate microtones and singing nuances a lot more in the past one and half years listening on my system. I used to like Asha better earlier. But now I know why Lata is Lata - each sur is perfect - you can actually make it out. The texture of sound is also resolved very well and you start clearly seeing the sea of difference between Lata’s voice in 70s (effortless) and 90s (strained). Clarity can be a boon as well as a bane - it amplifies the difference not just between the good and the bad but even between the best and the good. While you may start appreciating a Suresh Wadkar better, you also start noticing the limitations of Kishore Kumar. But then, that’s what audiophiles do, don’t they?

Sorry for a long reply. But your query triggered my reflections and I decided to let the flow. Hope it helps in some way. Thanks.

(PMing you with the cost).

 

[Hari Iyer]

I will be listening Sachin's setup today evening as he stays just a km away from my home.

I am not good at writing listen reviews though.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

I will be listening Sachin's setup today evening as he stays just a km away from my home.

I am not good at writing listen reviews though.

Hari, I am feeling like I’d be appearing for school exams - hoping the teacher likes my project!

 

[sound_cycle]

Sachin, I believe you like warm 3 dimensional sound

@SachinChavan nice rig Will drop in for a listen if I am in Mum.

I've had speakers very close to the wall, like your pics show for several years. I've since changed my rig and arrangement extensively and also experimented with rule of thirds and the HK/Limage theory. I mention this since you talk of liking a natural, sounding 3 dimensional presentation. In my room it was much more than the standard sock blowing toe curling kind of thing. With planars you end up getting a soundstage you can walk into and around (I sadly have a silly 55" sheet of 4K glass at the back wall which mucks up an even more detailed experience). I have tried this with some nice boxed BS speakers too, while not quite as dramatic is still a marked improvement over the close to wall arrangement.

I am not suggesting that it is a practical arrangement or that sonic gains trump marital bliss, merely saying that one quite evening pull them out and float away. Getting back to where you are is simply a matter of aligning the spikes on the tape/ permanent marker dots again

ciao
gr

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Hari, I am feeling like I’d be appearing for school exams - hoping the teacher likes my project!

Had a master class by Hari today evening! For starts, he helped improve the imaging of my speakers by toeing them appropriately (a learning for me). Then advised me to raise the sound height a bit by tilting the speakers a bit (have kept book currently, but will make some permanent arrangement - suggestions welcome). And there’s an experiment with cables that he has suggested that I shall try soon enough. He also pointed out that my left speaker was placed close to the full height window which if I kept open reduces its booming. Simple things, but well, simplicity is mastery.

Overall it was nice to get an agreement on the positives of my system (tonality, fatigue free) and also its limitations (highest frequencies damped, extra bass boom that’s characteristic of ported speakers which recesses the vocals somewhat).

Hari is a delight to interact. Very unassuming and helpful. I plan to visit his place and listen to the DIY system he has built soon.

@SachinChavan nice rig Will drop in for a listen if I am in Mum.

I've had speakers very close to the wall, like your pics show for several years. I've since changed my rig and arrangement extensively and also experimented with rule of thirds and the HK/Limage theory. I mention this since you talk of liking a natural, sounding 3 dimensional presentation. In my room it was much more than the standard sock blowing toe curling kind of thing. With planars you end up getting a soundstage you can walk into and around (I sadly have a silly 55" sheet of 4K glass at the back wall which mucks up an even more detailed experience). I have tried this with some nice boxed BS speakers too, while not quite as dramatic is still a marked improvement over the close to wall arrangement.

I am not suggesting that it is a practical arrangement or that sonic gains trump marital bliss, merely saying that one quite evening pull them out and float away. Getting back to where you are is simply a matter of aligning the spikes on the tape/ permanent marker dots again

ciao
gr

Dear Sound_cycle,

Thanks for the detailed suggestion. Even Hari who visited today suggested the Golden rule (guessing its the same as you suggest). I shall read up the links and experiment - there’s no cost and I have long enough speaker cables. At least I’d know what the speakers are capable of.

@SachinChavan nice rig Will drop in for a listen if I am in Mum.

I've had speakers very close to the wall, like your pics show for several years. I've since changed my rig and arrangement extensively and also experimented with rule of thirds and the HK/Limage theory. I mention this since you talk of liking a natural, sounding 3 dimensional presentation. In my room it was much more than the standard sock blowing toe curling kind of thing. With planars you end up getting a soundstage you can walk into and around (I sadly have a silly 55" sheet of 4K glass at the back wall which mucks up an even more detailed experience). I have tried this with some nice boxed BS speakers too, while not quite as dramatic is still a marked improvement over the close to wall arrangement.

I am not suggesting that it is a practical arrangement or that sonic gains trump marital bliss, merely saying that one quite evening pull them out and float away. Getting back to where you are is simply a matter of aligning the spikes on the tape/ permanent marker dots again

ciao
gr

I tried the golden method (had to move my furniture around). Though the volume reduces substantially, the boom also does. But sound is less dramatic too. May be I should look at transmission line speakers for next upgrade as I cannot practically separate the speakers form the rear wall by more than 1.5 feet or so.

I tried the golden method (had to move my furniture around). Though the volume reduces substantially, the boom also does. But sound is less dramatic too. May be I should look at transmission line speakers for next upgrade as I cannot practically separate the speakers form the rear wall by more than 1.5 feet or so.

But then the toeing in surely is helping. Since I added the preamp I had lost the focused imaging. The sound was more ambient, and the singer could not be ‘seen’. After Hari’s visit yesterday I realised that this preamp had a lot bigger sound and therefore unlike before, it was reflecting off much more from the walls thereby causing this. Now I have the speakers toed in a lot (almost 30 deg). The one in the corner toed in some more. Now the sound converges into a much smaller diameter (about 1 ft) than before the toeing in (it was about 3 ft - my TV’s length). I’d like it more focused - a natural human being’s sound would have about six inches diameter (similar to their face - in a close setting). Suggestions welcome. But as of now this is much better and has brought back some realism into the sound which I was missing. Note that before I added Lyrita I had Schiit headphone tube amp acting as preamp, and it being a much smaller sound, had more focused imaging.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Had a master class by Hari today evening! For starts, he helped improve the imaging of my speakers by toeing them appropriately (a learning for me). Then advised me to raise the sound height a bit by tilting the speakers a bit (have kept book currently, but will make some permanent arrangement - suggestions welcome). And there’s an experiment with cables that he has suggested that I shall try soon enough. He also pointed out that my left speaker was placed close to the full height window which if I kept open reduces its booming. Simple things, but well, simplicity is mastery.

Overall it was nice to get an agreement on the positives of my system (tonality, fatigue free) and also its limitations (highest frequencies damped, extra bass boom that’s characteristic of ported speakers which recesses the vocals somewhat).

Hari is a delight to interact. Very unassuming and helpful. I plan to visit his place and listen to the DIY system he has built soon.

Improvement achieved on the booming bass. Changed the last set of ordinary connectors I was using with audiophile grade. It’s surprising how much difference the cables and connectors do while we fret so much over components.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Another improvement made and the sound is now a perfect combination of detail, tonality and timing/ musicality. I can now boldly invite you to listen and feel pretty confident it will give you joy. For sure in its price range and the next.

What did I do? After adding the Lyrita preamp, there was a substantial improvement in tonality. And I was quite happy. But then @Hari Iyer visited and pointed out that details in terms of treble and vocal harmonics were missing/subdued. I heard my CDs on his system to compare and confirm the same. He helped me narrow down on the problem being the interconnects.

He also lent his DIY interconnects which I tried in my system and reported the improvement above. Sure there was an improvement I detail, but what I didn’t realise that I was then compromising on musicality. This was obvious when I did more of listening.

Then began the search for the solution. It was clear they had to be the interconnects. I approached Viren Bakhshi of Lyrita again. He also diagnosed the problem sinilarly and promised to send me his interconnects (very cost effective too). It took 2-3 weeks which I waited impatiently bugging him. Finally the cables arrived and surprised me with their bare bone looks.

Then I tried then in various combinations with my previous cables I.e Nordost Blue Heaven and Van den Hul. One of those was using both Lyrita cables (that is between DAC and pre and also between pre and power. It surely gave lots of detail, but again wasn’t musical enough to my liking. My previous combination (VDH and Nordost) was truly musical (but lacked the treble detail and upper harmonics).

And then i kept trying and hit upon the perfect combination. Lyrita interconnect between my DAC and pre, and my older Nordost interconnect between my pre and power. And this suddenly released the magic! Lots of detail, perfect tone, no boom whatsoever and involving musicality. Highly transparent and present sound. You got to hear it. Thanks to Hari, Virenji and other non forum friends.

Now, back to listening.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

And then i kept trying and hit upon the perfect combination. Lyrita interconnect between my DAC and pre, and my older Nordost interconnect between my pre and power. And this suddenly released the magic! Lots of detail, perfect tone, no boom whatsoever and involving musicality. Highly transparent and present sound.

Here’s my theory on why this option worked the best. The Lyrita cable seems to pass almost all frequencies through it like a freely flowing river. So the detailed analogue signal from the Schiit DAC is sent to the tube preamp almost unaltered, with all details intact. This is then cleaned (what else can the heat in the valves do), sweetened and amplified by the tube. This altered signal now has to be delivered to my SS power which can provide sufficient drive to my speakers. This transmission, when done previously by my Van den Hul IC which itself tends towards bass, made it boom slightly and suppressed the treble. When a second Lyrita IC was used for this, it gave bright sound (which can be fatiguing) which one would expect as the cable is designed for tube amps and not SS amps. But when I used the Nordost here, it worked just fine. This cable is a high end cable with remarkable control and balance. Some may say it’s slightly on brighter side (nowhere as Lyrita), but not when it was taking signal from my tube pre. Here it only added the right sparkle to the warm tube pre output. And it didn’t hide the upper frequencies like the Van der Hul did. As a result, the neural and boring Audiolab had nothing to do but just pump up the detail from the DAC, preserved by the Lyrita cable upstream, cleaned and warmed up by the tube pre and ably delivered by the Nordost in balanced way and pass the amplifier output to the workhorse Castle speakers.

The learning is it’s important to mate the interconnect cables properly with your components. Warmer components with slightly brighter cables as vice versa. Finally you’ve got to experiment and settle listening to the sound produced by the system as a whole. Thanks for reading.

 

[Amarendra]

Thanks for a very exhaustive write up. I was just wondering what made you select book shelf speakers over floor standers ? I am assuming that budget was not as much a constraint in your decision.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

My room furniture arrangement is such that the lower drivers of FS would have got obstructed by my single seater sofas.

Great sounding tubes. Only drawback is, they are quite microphonic and you should have a good stock of them as they will wear out faster.

Yes, I am experiencing that. The first set of tubes is already sounding bass-ish. A new set restored the sound. Can you suggest any alternatives that can substitute these without any modification? Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Please update me as I don’t remember if it’s a 4P1L tube preamp you have ? How many tubes each channel ? Would be helpful if you can share how are they mounted.

Yes, they are 4P1L. I’d like to also roll other options to experiment. But need to know which are there. Attaching a pic of the mounting.

Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Dear Yogibear,

Thanks for the elaborate reply. I feel sheepish to convey that the ‘bassishness’ of my system wasn’t because of the preamp tubes. (And they never sounded microphonic except the first two three days of use). It was because I had added some new connectors to the bottom driver of my speakers and as they burned in, the sound increased in bass and boominess. I wrongly concluded that it was due to the preamp tubes that were ageing prematurely.

I made two changes. First I went back to biwiring which kind of restores the balance between the two drivers. Yesterday (I was away for a week) I also played around with the positioning of my speakers with respect to the walls and the TV in between. I kept moving till I got the perfect sound which balanced the bass (robust but without boom) with the highs. Surprisingly, the final position also gave the best reproduction of the vocals. Actually not surprising as the various tones (and microtones) in the vocal sound are coming out balanced and clear now.

I shall stick to the 4P1L which I see from your comment and some other posts that are the best suited for the preamp Virenji has built.

Schin, yours is 4P1L tube preamplifier and the tubes must last about a year at least even if played daily. It may be possible that your tubes were not NOS. These are one of the most linear tubes and there is no replacement of these in a preamplifier designed for them as far as I know, even if you find any, will not sound as good as these. Your picture does not say how these are mounted, I mean are they mounted on a PCB or what kind of tube sockets ?

There are two way I am aware of to reduce or tame the microphony:

1. Use teflon tube sockets. They are called loctal sockets IIRC. Its been long I planned a 4P1L tube pre myself and then decided against it.

2. Use double PCB kind of mounting of tubes: http://www.bartola.co.uk/valves/tag/4p1l-preamp/

He even sells mounting arrangement.

Your 4P1L preamp must not share the platform its rested on with any other equipment, be it a CDP or TT or even a SS amp. The platform must be rigid and the pre should have nice buffers to rest on.

One tube guru tells me that 4P1L are quite microphonic and do not last long in a preamp but are not so when used as power tubes in a SE amplifier designed around them. These sound as good as any 300B or 2A3 SE amp and at a fraction of cost, but make 1.5 watts per channel only which my experience tells me is enough with high sensitivity drivers.

I have long done away with tube preamplifier or any other preamplifier in my line up as my sources are CDP and lossless from laptop and like to have right and left channel volume control on my tube amps.

I hope above helps but you need to do some DIY on your preamplifier....