noob query - muscular amps vs simpler designs

[jenson]

comparing the insides of a nad c375 bee vs a rega elex-r ; reviews are all gaga over the elex-r and opinions around the nad is not so exciting.

with these amplifier as just examples, why do some amps with minimal designs like the rega, naim gets more exciting reviews of amps which looks far more muscular (least on insides).

what is the philosophy here really..

 

[Nikhil]

what is the philosophy here really..

In short ... less is more!

But in general the less components you have in the chain the better.
Quality of components always matters eventually.

Massive transformers, capacitor banks etc eventually add "group delay".
When a signal is fed to the amp the output frequencies actually leave at different times i.e. the HF faster than the LF typically.
Depending on how the manufacturer addresses these issues affects the sound signature. Typically the simpler the design the better.

Vastly simplified but hope this helps.

 

[hifiramr]

The AMP sound signature and all depend on the design.Its purely dont depend on the number of pcb's inside the amp.Some amps might sound dull even if it have weight heavy and lot of electronics in it but exception in some brands like accuphase,pass lab etc.

They purely uses hi quality components with better design it sound amazing.So its all depend on the design how an amp is designed but you must have very good speaker and source to get maximum output.

 

[jenson]

When a signal is fed to the amp the output frequencies actually leave at different times i.e. the HF faster than the LF typically. .

This is a powerful statement, I can now get what they mean by prat, "gets your feet tapping" kinda analogies...

In this case, like other gentleman mentioned.. I can now get why everything in the chain is important. However, how do you nail system matching, is there a rule of thumb whereby one could look at specifications and get a fair idea on possibilities...demo is not possible in every situation


Sent from my A37f using Tapatalk

 

[Kannan]

is there a rule of thumb whereby one could look at specifications and get a fair idea on possibilities...demo is not possible in every situation
Sent from my A37f using Tapatalk

Though not a thumb rule, by technicalities a separated pre/power will give better performance than an integrated.
Though many audiophiles spend years and loads of money to find that elusive sound to match the pre with the power, a simple formula of buying a matched pre and power as supplied by the company is a good starting point.

Spread good amount of the budget on the DAC to suit your signature and keep the rest of the chain as neutral as possible.

 

[Nikhil]

Though not a thumb rule, by technicalities a separated pre/power will give better performance than an integrated.

This has been around for a while but this is not true always.
A good integrated will easily match a pre power combination.

 

[prem]

I would look at a good dac with a built in pre going into a power amp into the speakers.

Decide your speakers first. Dynamic, horns, open baffle, electrostats, transmission line, single driver all have their strengths and weakness. Depending on what kind of speaker floats your boat, choose a matching amp. Keep the source as neutral as possible.

Once you decide the speaker type, choose a brand. Check with the designer what amp he used for voicing. If possible get the same amp. That's what I normally do. I usually have full faith in the designer recommendations and go with his choices.

 

[Kannan]

This has been around for a while but this is not true always.
A good integrated will easily match a pre power combination.

That is why I said not necessarily a thumb rule...

 

[ISO]

When a signal is fed to the amp the output frequencies actually leave at different times i.e. the HF faster than the LF typically.

This something very new to me. Do u have any supporting links for the same?

 

[asliarun]

In short ... less is more!

But in general the less components you have in the chain the better.
Quality of components always matters eventually.

Massive transformers, capacitor banks etc eventually add "group delay".
When a signal is fed to the amp the output frequencies actually leave at different times i.e. the HF faster than the LF typically.
Depending on how the manufacturer addresses these issues affects the sound signature. Typically the simpler the design the better.

Vastly simplified but hope this helps.

Sorry, I am a bit sceptical of this assertion. What you say about minimalism and high quality components is certainly true. But *only* when it applies to components in the signal path.

Transformers and capacitor banks are in the power supply side. Their job is to feed current to the signal - they are basically a reservoir. Having a larger vs smaller transformer, or larger capacitors vs smaller capacitors should make no difference as they are not in the signal path at all. If anything, larger capacitor banks would almost always be a better choice as they provide a larger reservoir of instantaneous current supply, so the signal amplification circuit can handle amplification needs and impedance swings better.

Anyway, just my lay person understanding. I am sure there are far more knowledgeable people on this forum who can correct me, yourself included.

The second aspect is that different designers have different design philosophies. Many believe in minimalism, but some do believe in maximalism as well. They believe that by over-processing the signal, they can achieve better control of the outcome. Even you yourself said that your current amp uses a lot of DSP magic which is part of its secret sauce. Auralic does this. Yamaha does this. Delta-sigma DACs do this by definition. DSP is this by definition. Room correction is this by definition.

To be honest, I am not making any claims either way. I personally have a very minimalistic amp with reasonably good quality components and I *really* like the sound. But not to say that other designs might be as good or better. Perhaps?

 

[ISO]

As a professional circuit designer I can say that there is no minimal or maximum circuit design. Every circuit should be designed optimally. Every extra useless component will add to unnecessary cost where as any omission (for saving cost) may result in distortion or shorter life of the amplifier.

Quality of the components do play major roll in quality. For e.g. replacing electrolytic capacitors by polypropylene in the crossover circuit of the speaker will improve high frequency response from the tweeter.

Any processing of the signal will degrade quality of the signal/sound. That is why we have pure direct in the amplifiers to bypass tone control circuitry.

Not to speak of DSP where there is A to D conversion => processing => D to A conversion, will severely degrade quality of the sound.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Sorry, I am a bit sceptical of this assertion. What you say about minimalism and high quality components is certainly true. But *only* when it applies to components in the signal path.

Transformers and capacitor banks are in the power supply side. Their job is to feed current to the signal - they are basically a reservoir. Having a larger vs smaller transformer, or larger capacitors vs smaller capacitors should make no difference as they are not in the signal path at all. If anything, larger capacitor banks would almost always be a better choice as they provide a larger reservoir of instantaneous current supply, so the signal amplification circuit can handle amplification needs and impedance swings better.

Anyway, just my lay person understanding. I am sure there are far more knowledgeable people on this forum who can correct me, yourself included.

The second aspect is that different designers have different design philosophies. Many believe in minimalism, but some do believe in maximalism as well. They believe that by over-processing the signal, they can achieve better control of the outcome. Even you yourself said that your current amp uses a lot of DSP magic which is part of its secret sauce. Auralic does this. Yamaha does this. Delta-sigma DACs do this by definition. DSP is this by definition. Room correction is this by definition.

To be honest, I am not making any claims either way. I personally have a very minimalistic amp with reasonably good quality components and I *really* like the sound. But not to say that other designs might be as good or better. Perhaps?

As a professional circuit designer I can say that there is no minimal or maximum circuit design. Every circuit should be designed optimally. Every extra useless component will add to unnecessary cost where as any omission (for saving cost) may result in distortion or shorter life of the amplifier.

Quality of the components do play major roll in quality. For e.g. replacing electrolytic capacitors by polypropylene in the crossover circuit of the speaker will improve high frequency response from the tweeter.

Any processing of the signal will degrade quality of the signal/sound. That is why we have pure direct in the amplifiers to bypass tone control circuitry.

Not to speak of DSP where there is A to D conversion => processing => D to A conversion, will severely degrade quality of the sound.

I agree with the highlighted parts. Less is more, but not always enough. As sophistication level in amplifier increases less can't do. Then they need to add more. Then they need to optimize. The circuit, the components. Till they reach where they envisioned to be.

A good amplifier is the one with a good design and successful implementation. There are as many examples of complex, state of the art successful design as there are of minimalist designs.

 

[eastofthesun]

I would look at a good dac with a built in pre going into a power amp into the speakers.

Decide your speakers first. Dynamic, horns, open baffle, electrostats, transmission line, single driver all have their strengths and weakness. Depending on what kind of speaker floats your boat, choose a matching amp. Keep the source as neutral as possible.

Once you decide the speaker type, choose a brand. Check with the designer what amp he used for voicing. If possible get the same amp. That's what I normally do. I usually have full faith in the designer recommendations and go with his choices.

I completely agree and second Prem !

Cheers!
Anand

 

[prem]

Tube amps are normally simpler in design as compared to a SS amp. But for both the power supply needs to be very well designed. Power supply designs can become very complex depending on the level of filtration you want and the ability to provide instantaneous power when demanded. The better ones gets more complex with power factor correction built in.

My present amp is an extremely complex design whereas my previous one was a fairly simple one. Both sound good. So it all comes down to implementation. One thing that I would insist at least in the signal path is to have highly speced out components so that there is minimal loss. Initially even the inferior components sound decent but the problem is they lose their values sooner or later and that's when the sound degrades.

 

[ISO]

A good amplifier is the one with a good design and successful implementation. There are as many examples of complex, state of the art successful design as there are of minimalist designs.

Look at Norge amd Marantz amplifier from inside.

Don't want to criticize Indian brand but look at complexity of wiring (Noise), analog potentiometers (they deteriorate with time), Multiple PCBs (Reliablity and Noise). Where as Marantz design is clean (even though it is all transistor type). Note shielded digital and toroidal transformer.

 

[Nikhil]

This something very new to me. Do u have any supporting links for the same?

It's the basic premise of fast wide bandwidth design.

In solid state amps with global or local negative feedback, the propagation delay of the feedback loop must be close to zero.
The way to achieve this is with ultra fast/high bandwidth circuits. Propagation times in ultra fast circuits is in nanoseconds.

In muscle amps the propagation time is in the millisecond range which in turn affects the quality of the feedback loop.

Regards.

 

[ISO]

In muscle amps the propagation time is in the millisecond range which in turn affects the quality of the feedback loop.

Ok but it is same for the bass and high frequency. so how does it affect propagation delay for low and high frequencies?

 

[Nikhil]

Ok but it is same for the bass and high frequency. so how does it affect propagation delay for low and high frequencies?

It isn't. All signals experience some delay (depending on freq) when going through a device (Group delay).

 

[hifiramr]

Signal loss yes its there when we have a bad design.For very good designs it will not be there or might be 0.0002 something will not effect an end user as they are adding buffer circuits cleverly integrated into there modules.

What I observed is the heart of every design is there power supply.PSU will decide the most so every hi end products have very good psu implemented in pre and power stages.

 

[ISO]

aren't following two quotes contradictory?

When a signal is fed to the amp the output frequencies actually leave at different times i.e. the HF faster than the LF typically.

Originally Posted by ISO View Post
Ok but it is same for the bass and high frequency. so how does it affect propagation delay for low and high frequencies?

It isn't. All signals experience some delay (depending on freq) when going through a device (Group delay).