Objectivity vs Subjectivity
- Thread starter Passive_audio_enthusiast
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Passive_audio_enthusiast
Well-Known Member
True. But it will appeal only to the developer most of the times.- edit: I think I m wrong here.
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How , pardon? Any gear with great measurements will eventually have to react with our less than great rooms and screw over the sound in myriad ways. How is that transparent anymore , unless you are using headphones?
Subjectivists listen to music. They believe and rely on their ears.
Objectivists don't listen to anything. They believe and rely on machines and are incapable to decide which hardware sounds better without help of some machines.
It's so simple. End of story.
In my home only I listen to music critically, for others it really doesn't matter how they sound subjectively. For them everything sounds the same and they don't care or even bother. Sometimes they feel i am all nuts and need help
-. Also 99.999999% times you are the only critical listener. An occasional FM can drop in 0.000001% of your listening session time. So are you going to satisfy yourself or the FM? Wondering.I listen to music. When you are doing a critical listen, well, the word speaks for itself, you are listening to the equipment, room, measurements, recording and a whole lot more. Nothing wrong with it, although, I sometimes feel that you are missing the wood for the trees. To each his own. I will stick to listening to music.
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Decadent_Spectre
Well-Known Member
I agree with this.
In my observations it has been seen that objectivists have strong objective bias. If they buy equipment based on their beliefs then if it doesn't sound good to them they usually either convince themselves it sounds good or that their preference is "wrong" and they should correct it to align with objective data.
I've rarely seen them enjoying music, only going over measurements, taking measurements, repeating this cycle infinitely.
Oh no, please do go on!
There’s nothing I enjoy more than being categorized, compartmentalized and marginalized by some random keyboard warrior on the interwebs, who has not the foggiest notion of who I am
I realised I only check objective measurements of components when I am considering a purchase.
I also check user and professional reviewers subjective feedback more extensively as there is a lot more of these.
But once I have bought it I never looked at the measurements again. I do sometimes recheck subjective opinions to verify I understood these to compare with what I am hearing. I don’t have the means or knowledge to test/measure even if I wanted to.
The polarised positions of the two groups is not helping me much. Sometimes it is confounding.
An example I saw was with Schiit Yggdrasil DAC which has a huge fan following and a waitlist of months (due to chop shortages)
Amir of ASR (whose knowledge and integrity I respect) measured and found this:
audiosciencereview.com
So, confounding or what?
Hope the discussion can focus on why there is such a big difference between measured performance and subjective opinions, rather than which is better or more important.
This could be useful for everyone?
I also check user and professional reviewers subjective feedback more extensively as there is a lot more of these.
But once I have bought it I never looked at the measurements again. I do sometimes recheck subjective opinions to verify I understood these to compare with what I am hearing. I don’t have the means or knowledge to test/measure even if I wanted to.
The polarised positions of the two groups is not helping me much. Sometimes it is confounding.
An example I saw was with Schiit Yggdrasil DAC which has a huge fan following and a waitlist of months (due to chop shortages)
Amir of ASR (whose knowledge and integrity I respect) measured and found this:
Review and Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil V2 DAC
This is a detailed review and measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil with upgraded "Gen 5 USB" interface and "Analog 2" DAC+analog board. I see this informally called Yggdrasil V2 even though there is no such model name on Schiit website. The retail price as of this writing is USD $2,399 plus...
audiosciencereview.com
So, confounding or what?
Hope the discussion can focus on why there is such a big difference between measured performance and subjective opinions, rather than which is better or more important.
This could be useful for everyone?
I’ve no interest in high end DACs as I listen mostly to analog & CDs on dedicated CD players. However I do have a Schiit entry level DAC bought few years back , which from the beginning had an unsatisfactory sound over USB connected to laptop using a good USB cable. Over Coaxial and Optical inputs the sound was much better. Over USB the sound was dry , brittle , unpleasant.I realised I only check objective measurements of components when I am considering a purchase.
I also check user and professional reviewers subjective feedback more extensively as there is a lot more of these.
But once I have bought it I never looked at the measurements again. I do sometimes recheck subjective opinions to verify I understood these to compare with what I am hearing. I don’t have the means or knowledge to test/measure even if I wanted to.
The polarised positions of the two groups is not helping me much. Sometimes it is confounding.
An example I saw was with Schiit Yggdrasil DAC which has a huge fan following and a waitlist of months (due to chop shortages)
Amir of ASR (whose knowledge and integrity I respect) measured and found this:
Review and Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil V2 DAC
This is a detailed review and measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil with upgraded "Gen 5 USB" interface and "Analog 2" DAC+analog board. I see this informally called Yggdrasil V2 even though there is no such model name on Schiit website. The retail price as of this writing is USD $2,399 plus...
So, confounding or what?
Hope the discussion can focus on why there is such a big difference between measured performance and subjective opinions, rather than which is better or more important.
This could be useful for everyone?
More than 2 years later I came across the ASR review of this DAC which corroborated my (subjective) experience with some measurements saying that basically the USB interface on this DAC is very noisy. So there you go.
Thanks for sharing this. Yes, sometimes measured performance aligns with subjective experience and opinions.
What confounds is when they are divergent (measures well- sounds bad or sounds great- measures bad)
I am also wondering how much reading about measurements before listening creates a bias in our minds and vice versa. Obviously this was not the case in your experience with the Schiit DAC.
Very high price, skilled marketing and top notch industrial design often combine to create some strong opinions and beliefs that continue to be propagated.
This however does not explain why some vintage gear that measure poorly still sound good after all the hype has disappeared over the years (Quad 405 (50 years old?), some older JBLs and Marantz models)
Another example is the Measurements of the Croft integrated amplifier by John Atkinson of Stereophile. In his measurements this amplifier performed poorly (he used phrases such as 'incompetent', and reports a 6db roll-off within the audible frequency range on phono, and persistent distortion).
But three (yes, three) of his experienced staff reviewers (Art Dudley, Stephen Meijas and Sam Tellig) all had unanimously very good opinions about this amp sounded to them. Definitely confounding.
Croft Acoustics Phono Integrated integrated amplifier
The name sounds perfect. It fits neatly next to those of Messrs. Leak, Sugden, Walker, Grant, Lumley, and others of Britain's most rightly revered amplifier builders. In fact, when their distributor called and asked if I'd like to review the latest amplifier from Croft Acoustics, I accepted...
@Analogous
Don't read too much into measurements. They are relevant but not the only criteria for selecting a particular product.
Cheers,
Raghu
Don't read too much into measurements. They are relevant but not the only criteria for selecting a particular product.
Cheers,
Raghu
You bought this blind recently no ? Based on other FMs feedback and not evidently on the poor measurements in Stereophile which are countered as well.Another example is the Measurements of the Croft integrated amplifier by John Atkinson of Stereophile. In his measurements this amplifier performed poorly (he used phrases such as 'incompetent', and reports a 6db roll-off within the audible frequency range on phono, and persistent distortion).
But three (yes, three) of his experienced staff reviewers (Art Dudley, Stephen Meijas and Sam Tellig) all had unanimously very good opinions about this amp sounded to them. Definitely confounding.
Croft Acoustics Phono Integrated integrated amplifier
The name sounds perfect. It fits neatly next to those of Messrs. Leak, Sugden, Walker, Grant, Lumley, and others of Britain's most rightly revered amplifier builders. In fact, when their distributor called and asked if I'd like to review the latest amplifier from Croft Acoustics, I accepted...www.stereophile.com
So , would you still have bought it if it measured poorly across many sites but vouched for by FMs whose opinions you value ?
lowpoweraudio
Member
"We are human, not machine."
~Says the AI.
Sorry little joke. Couldn't resist.
~Says the AI.
Sorry little joke. Couldn't resist.
Enkay78
Well-Known Member
Bias
It's difficult to have an unbiased subjective assessment. Also there is something called as conformity bias.
So to base everything subjectively cannnot be prudent parameter. I mean we all know how our mood can effect our music to sound to us.
In the above example, how can it be assured that Art Dudley, Stephen Meijas and Sam Tellig heard same musicality? How can John Atkins measurements be disprove of poor musicality?
What have audioresearch shown over years?
Have we ever ask how the golden ears audiophiles are mostly 50+ old men when they are probably suffering age related hearing loss? How can their subjective assessments be a better parameter from a 18 year old listener whose auditory spectrum can reach upto 20kz?
When someone claim that ultrasonic waves spectrum contribute to sonic quality, how do you assess the truth of his statement, when humans can hear only 20hz to 20kz at their peak of listening power around youngish age of 20years?
It's difficult to have an unbiased subjective assessment. Also there is something called as conformity bias.
So to base everything subjectively cannnot be prudent parameter. I mean we all know how our mood can effect our music to sound to us.
In the above example, how can it be assured that Art Dudley, Stephen Meijas and Sam Tellig heard same musicality? How can John Atkins measurements be disprove of poor musicality?
What have audioresearch shown over years?
Have we ever ask how the golden ears audiophiles are mostly 50+ old men when they are probably suffering age related hearing loss? How can their subjective assessments be a better parameter from a 18 year old listener whose auditory spectrum can reach upto 20kz?
When someone claim that ultrasonic waves spectrum contribute to sonic quality, how do you assess the truth of his statement, when humans can hear only 20hz to 20kz at their peak of listening power around youngish age of 20years?
@Enkay78
You are back after "ending" the discussion
No one here claimed ultrasonic waves contribute to sonic quality. In fact many of us here don't believe in such or similar myths.
On your claim that 50+ year old men suffer from hearing loss. Yes it's true. I am one of them.
When I plug in my hearing aids that are calibrated to enhance my lossy ears some components sound harsh.
They measure extremely well, but sound unbearable. Should I buy and listen to them or look elsewhere for a different component?
Or should I take a perfectly measuring SOTA component that "accurately" reproduces sound and add tweaks to it to make it inaccurate?
A large majority of us in this hobby are not binary.
Measurements are relevant, but not the last word.
Subjective listening and opinions are also relevant, again not the last word.
A hobbyist takes both in some ratio and bases his/her decision whether a particular component is a good fit for enjoying music.
If you feel, measurements are the only right way, good for you.
Just don't insist that this method must be followed by everyone else.
And going off tangent, bringing in money/ego/what-not serves no purpose.
People (even hardliners from both camps) will buy what they want as per their budget and preference. I respect that.
People (even hardliners from both camps) may even claim that theirs is the best ever they've heard. I respect that.
Everything in an audio chain can be measured to a reasonable accuracy, even the room.
Even when perfect as per science, our dirty little brains trick us and say "No I don't like this"
Hearing is a sensory perception. Perception being the operative word.
Cheers,
Raghu
You are back after "ending" the discussion
No one here claimed ultrasonic waves contribute to sonic quality. In fact many of us here don't believe in such or similar myths.
On your claim that 50+ year old men suffer from hearing loss. Yes it's true. I am one of them.
When I plug in my hearing aids that are calibrated to enhance my lossy ears some components sound harsh.
They measure extremely well, but sound unbearable. Should I buy and listen to them or look elsewhere for a different component?
Or should I take a perfectly measuring SOTA component that "accurately" reproduces sound and add tweaks to it to make it inaccurate?
A large majority of us in this hobby are not binary.
Measurements are relevant, but not the last word.
Subjective listening and opinions are also relevant, again not the last word.
A hobbyist takes both in some ratio and bases his/her decision whether a particular component is a good fit for enjoying music.
If you feel, measurements are the only right way, good for you.
Just don't insist that this method must be followed by everyone else.
And going off tangent, bringing in money/ego/what-not serves no purpose.
People (even hardliners from both camps) will buy what they want as per their budget and preference. I respect that.
People (even hardliners from both camps) may even claim that theirs is the best ever they've heard. I respect that.
Everything in an audio chain can be measured to a reasonable accuracy, even the room.
Even when perfect as per science, our dirty little brains trick us and say "No I don't like this"
Hearing is a sensory perception. Perception being the operative word.
Cheers,
Raghu
Passive_audio_enthusiast
Well-Known Member
I was at an audio show where one high end companies, with a group of older men were having a demo of Some speakers. I was 32 back then and to my ears that demo was way too bright. But I could see the happy faces there and they are not wrong. I clearly know in some ears I will be doing the same. So to their ears a neutral speaker will be flawed as it doesn’t habe enough highs. Most popular reviewers would now be in this category
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