Optimizing the foobar2000 player

[vivek.saikia]

Hi All,

Gradually I am moving towards a Laptop based system for my Music listening.
I have a lenovo and a Sony VAIO laptop. The Sony laptop has so called high definition on board sound card and is basically a multimedia laptop. The Lenovo just have a normal onboard sound card which is not even media centric and is much of a business machine (keeping up with it's name). But surprisingly, the IBM laptop sounds quite good when connected to my NAD amp and Wharfy 8.2 speakers as compared to the Sony VAIO, despite of being quite old. I also have plans to introduce a good DAC into my setup, but not very soon (lots of financial commitments right now ).
I have also noticed that the Foobar2000 is quite an improvement over Winamp, which I was using earlier. The open source nature of the player and good sound quality is quite encouraging to try out different DSPs and different add-ons.
Currently, I have the following add-ons which I have configured on the player:

1. Tube sound - Good DSP to get a feel of tube like sound. The sound becomes much mellow and clean.
2. foo input monkey - For playing the ape format files.
3. foo out asio - Haven't really figured out what exactly it does
4. UI Columns - This is an add on for enhancing the UI of the player. It shows the details in column.
5. Burninate - To burn CDs from the player itself.
6. WASAPI - again, no idea how it improves the sound.
7. Wave seekbar - Shows the seekbar.
8. File operations - It allows to do some file operations from the player console.

I am looking out for a file tree explorer using which I can use to browse the files on my computer. I have found a add-ons for this called UIE Explorer but I am not able to make it work till now.
Being open source, there is a huge availability of different DSPs/configurations /add-ons for the player to optimize the sound quality. The tube sound is the latest DSP which I came to know of recently from Spirovious and am enjoying it right now.

The intention of starting this thread is to discuss various DSPs/configurations/add-ons which help in optimizing the sound quality from Foobar2000 and enhance to it's user interface. In short, I want to cash in the vast knowledge bank in this forum.

Looking forward to your suggestions/tips & tricks in this regard.

Cheers!

 

[sandip_d]

Below is general configuration guide I found usefull.
[Guide] Setting up Z5500 + X-Fi on Multimedia Application (Foobar & PowerDVD) - Overclock.net - Overclocking.net
He has thrown some equalizer presets which I have not used. My laptop has a optical out (HP DV 6208NR). Using foobar in Win 7 with wasapi --XDA-1---XPA-3 ---and modest speakers(Yamaha NS-555) gives fantastic sound. I am in no way capable of describing it technically, but the result is wow. Hope to get hand on ERT-8.3 one day, hence saving & waiting for discount time.

 

[vivek.saikia]

Below is general configuration guide I found usefull.
[Guide] Setting up Z5500 + X-Fi on Multimedia Application (Foobar & PowerDVD) - Overclock.net - Overclocking.net
He has thrown some equalizer presets which I have not used. My laptop has a optical out (HP DV 6208NR). Using foobar in Win 7 with wasapi --XDA-1---XPA-3 ---and modest speakers(Yamaha NS-555) gives fantastic sound. I am in no way capable of describing it technically, but the result is wow. Hope to get hand on ERT-8.3 one day, hence saving & waiting for discount time.

Thanks Sandip for the link. What I gather from the link is that the ASIO plug in is basically for 5.1 sound, isn't it?

 

[ravi_d]

Here are the chain of items I use when using laptop as a transport.

Foobar2k - WASAPI SPDIF Interface --> Laptop optical out --> DAC --> Integrated Amp

1. Tube sound - Good DSP to get a feel of tube like sound. The sound becomes much mellow and clean.

I tried bypassing the pre-amp stage of my NAD amplifier and used the Valve Little Dot MK3 as a pre amp.
With the Valve pre-amp I found the midrange to be little more open and the highs little more extended. Even the bass I found it as good as the NAD pre-amp.

But when I used the Tube sound DSP in foobar2000 I didn't find any qualities of using a real decent tube pre amp. The sound felt little muffled with the plugin. I prefer using it with out the tube sound plugin or rather using a real tube pre amp.

3. foo out asio - Haven't really figured out what exactly it does

6. WASAPI - again, no idea how it improves the sound.

I guess ASIO and WASAPI basically does the same thing of bypassing the Windows mixer. I use WASAPI plug-in and with WASAPI output it makes sure other windows sounds are blocked and only the foobar sound comes out of the output device. Also I see the true bit rate transferred to the DAC when using the digital out. Before with out the plugin all other 48kHz and 96kHz Vinyl rip sources were re sampled to standard 44.1kHz rate.

Overall with the foobar2000 controller android app on my HTC Desire I use the laptop more than using the CDP.

 

[vivek.saikia]

But when I used the Tube sound DSP in foobar2000 I didn't find any qualities of using a real decent tube pre amp. The sound felt little muffled with the plugin. I prefer using it with out the tube sound plugin or rather using a real tube pre amp.

Making a confession here, I never heard a tube amp. All I have done is drawn a mental picture (or sound??) of the sound signature of the tube amp. I can only dream that it sounds like electrical charge jumping off the hot and cold electrodes in vacuum (if that makes any sense!).

I guess ASIO and WASAPI basically does the same thing of bypassing the Windows mixer.

I have added both the plug ins. So it's wise to remove any one of the plug in?

Also I see the true bit rate transferred to the DAC when using the digital out. Before with out the plugin all other 48kHz and 96kHz Vinyl rip sources were re sampled to standard 44.1kHz rate.

I have this Resampler (PPHS) plug in installed using which I can change the sampling frequency. I have configured it to the highest sampling frequency supported, i.e., 96KHz. I am using mostly flac files and some 320kbps mp3 rips. Does such high sampling frequency adds to any SQ or simply consumes CPU? Sorry for asking so many questions. I shouldn't have slept through my DSP classes

 

[hydra]

@vivek, the ASIO plugin is intended to let you bypass the Windows audio-processing, letting your soundcard handle the pure audio stream. It works only if your soundcard has ASIO drivers.

The WASAPI plugin is to be used only with Vista and Windows 7 -- the sound processing was revamped from Vista on. WASAPI basically does the same thing as ASIO does -- it lets you bypass the windows audio-processing. WASAPI is of no use with Windows XP.

Apparently Windows 7 has two modes of handling audio -- Exclusive mode & Shared mode. What we will be interested in is the Exclusive mode. This mode allows us to send all audio streams straight to the sound card, without Windows 7 tampering with them.

All this is basically theoretical knowledge only, and I haven't actually used either ASIO or WASAPI. I've been reading up on the same as I have a Music PC in the oven and I'll need to set it up with all this (I plan to use Foobar2000). I'll being going hands-on with all this the coming weekend.

 

[vivek.saikia]

@vivek, the ASIO plugin is intended to let you bypass the Windows audio-processing, letting your soundcard handle the pure audio stream. It works only if your soundcard has ASIO drivers.

The WASAPI plugin is to be used only with Vista and Windows 7 -- the sound processing was revamped from Vista on. WASAPI basically does the same thing as ASIO does -- it lets you bypass the windows audio-processing. WASAPI is of no use with Windows XP.

Apparently Windows 7 has two modes of handling audio -- Exclusive mode & Shared mode. What we will be interested in is the Exclusive mode. This mode allows us to send all audio streams straight to the sound card, without Windows 7 tampering with them.

All this is basically theoretical knowledge only, and I haven't actually used either ASIO or WASAPI. I've been reading up on the same as I have a Music PC in the oven and I'll need to set it up with all this (I plan to use Foobar2000). I'll being going hands-on with all this the coming weekend.

Thanks Hydra for the info.
As my both laptops don't have any external sound card so the ASIO or WASAPI plug-ins will be rendered useless or will it still use the internal onboard sound card with no audio processing by Windows. Is my understanding right?

 

[moktan]

i use foobar 2000 with Wine in my Ubuntu 10.10...but my DSP manager seems to be disabled by default..is there any way i can access the goodies that are being talked about in this thread??
thanks

 

[hydra]

Thanks Hydra for the info.
As my both laptops don't have any external sound card so the ASIO or WASAPI plug-ins will be rendered useless or will it still use the internal onboard sound card with no audio processing by Windows. Is my understanding right?

I think the setup should work if the onboard sound HW supports ASIO.

In Foobar2000, go to File > Preferences > Playback > Output.

In the RHS pane, in the "Device" pulldown, is there a device starting with "ASIO: xxxx" with "xxxx" being the device name (usually "Primary Sound Driver")?

If there is such a device, select it, and you're in business That means your onboard sound supports ASIO and has got the necessary drivers installed for this purpose.

If such a device is not listed, it means one of the following:
(a) Your onboard sound does not support ASIO, or
(b) Your onboard sound supports ASIO, but does not have the necessary driver installed.

Assuming the situation is "(b)", you will need to search for a driver.

ASIO4all
There is one other option. You an use the ASIO4All for Foobar2000. ASIO4all is a universal ASIO driver and should work with all sound hardware. It works in the same manner as ASIO and bypasses windows sound-processing.

To set it up,
(1) Download the asio4all.exe from ASIO4ALL - Universal ASIO Driver and install it.

(2) Get the ASIO component for foobar2000 from foobar2000: Components Repository and copy it into your foobar components directory (in the DRIVELETTER\Program Files\foobar2000\components folder) NOTE: I think you have already done this.

(3) In Foobar2000, go to File > Preferences > Playback > Output. Under "Output" you should see an "ASIO virtual devices" item. Select it. In the RHS pane, click on "Add New". You should see your onboard sound info in the box that pops up. Hit "Ok" to add it to the ASIO virtual devices list.

(4) Go to File > Preferences > Playback > Output. In the In the RHS pane, in the "Device" pulldown, select the "ASIO: ASIO4ALL v2" device.

That's it! You're in the ASIO4all business

(I frankly don't know which is better: ASIO or ASIO4all. I assume ASIO with your sound hardware having the necessary ASIO drivers might be better, but that is just a guess.)

 

[ravi_d]

I have added both the plug ins. So it's wise to remove any one of the plug in?

Find out what you see in the Foobar2000 Preferences-->Output
If its Vista or Windows 7 it is likely you see WASAPI in the list of output devices.
I use WASAPI: SPDIF Interface as the output and the optical out of laptop to the optical input of DAC. Make sure you don't hear other youtube sounds or other windows sounds while foobar is running with the WASAPI output or other plug in outputs. What ever you select in the output devices that is the one will be working.

I have this Resampler (PPHS) plug in installed using which I can change the sampling frequency. I have configured it to the highest sampling frequency supported, i.e., 96KHz. I am using mostly flac files and some 320kbps mp3 rips. Does such high sampling frequency adds to any SQ or simply consumes CPU? Sorry for asking so many questions. I shouldn't have slept through my DSP classes

True sample rates you find for lossless audio are 16bit 44.1kHz and 24 bit 48kHz. When you have a DAC its better to send the source as is with out re-sampling.
When using analog out from the sound card it your choice whether you like the sound up sampled or left it as it is.

Up-sampling the source may not necessarily increase the sound quality. Some DAC's up-sample all the sources to 24bit 192kHz or more irrespective of the source before Digital to Analog conversion.
Some DAC's just do the Analog conversion with out up-sampling the source. But both are better in their own.
Its not one is better than other but it all depends on how good the DAC is implemented.

 

[vivek.saikia]

Thanks Hydra and Ravi for the truckload of information. I will try out your suggestions and check if there is any improvement in the SQ.

 

[spirovious]

I came to know abt foobar from forum & started experimenting it.I came to know that 0.8.3 was the so far best version.After that I liked 1.0 which is my favourate.
Now then came output options.

1.asio4all- This is a easy option to bypass unecessary windows processing & passing sound directly to soundcar.Now if you install Soundcard(in desktop),many companies has their own one which sounds better than asio4all.Here you can set sampling frequencies & bits also(16,24,32).

2.wasapi-Originally developed for Vista & now working with 7.

3.Kernal streaming(KS)-This was a part of 0.8 version & now you need to add plugin.

4.Direct sound(DS)-This is another good option for direct sound.

Now KS supports 32bit also(with my 24bit D2X),wasapi doesnt.Asio upto 32bit.
I can say that asio sounds more open & vocals prominent.With DS/KS/Wasapi sound is cleaner,not harsh.

DSPs-I tried many DSPs.SOX resampler is better than rest.Crossfader,Crossfeed but dont know the actual improvement.Even channel mixer is good one to convert stereo to 5.1.
Finally settled with Tube sound as it sounds little analoge like & digital tough is less.Its clean & soft too.

I can say that using upsampler can make sound little thinner(vocals),even tried Asus one.Keeping 16bit,44.1ks,sound is fuller & enjoyable.I have noticed these all with Headphone.So I guess ,I picked up details.

 

[vasishta.sushant]

Just a correction. Kernel Streaming works only for XP. The similar thing for Vista/Windows 7 is WASAPI. There is no point in trying to get KS working on Win 7 since WASAPI is already a better implementation.

 

[spirovious]

Just a correction. Kernel Streaming works only for XP. The similar thing for Vista/Windows 7 is WASAPI. There is no point in trying to get KS working on Win 7 since WASAPI is already a better implementation.

KS works well with 7 & supports 32bit,wasapi doesnt.You can try & let me know.I am using portable installation of Foobar 1.0.
Another player is Cplay which is better than foobar & works with asio4all.

 

[vasishta.sushant]

This component was originally written for Windows 2000 and Windows XP. It is not guaranteed to cooperate with newer versions of Windows.

Kernel Streaming is known to work on certain Windows Vista and Windows 7 configurations, but not with devices having WaveRT drivers such as High Definition Audio Devices integrated with newer motherboards - such devices simply won't be shown on foobar2000's output device list as available KS devices.

If you run Windows Vista, you should be using WASAPI instead in most cases.

Using Kernel Streaming may expose device driver bugs that can't be triggered otherwise and lead to system instability. Use this component at your own risk.

Foobar2000:Components/Kernel Streaming support (foo out ks) - Hydrogenaudio Knowledgebase

WASAPI is a new audio output method introduced in Windows Vista; among other things, it provides an exclusive mode that allows applications to take full control over soundcard's resources (muting any sounds played by other applications) and play unaltered bitstream without passing it through the Windows mixer.

Foobar2000:Components 0.9/WASAPI output support (foo out wasapi) - Hydrogenaudio Knowledgebase

 

[cmsajith]

Pardon my ignorance if this was already answered.

I am having an external DAC (Beresford Caiman). My HTPC is having both SPDIF Coaxial and Optical ports for audio.

Do I need to use WASAPI (Win7 64bit) while using the o/ps from those ports?
Also if I use USB port, what should be the configuration?

OR shall I use the Exclusive mode in Win7 (as somebody had told before). Which one is better?

 

[ontherocks]

You didn't mention the OS.
You could use the Kernel Streaming plugin for bit-exact playback bypassing Windows kernel mixer. (Kernel Streaming plugin)

 

[hydra]

Pardon my ignorance if this was already answered.

I am having an external DAC (Beresford Caiman). My HTPC is having both SPDIF Coaxial and Optical ports for audio.

Do I need to use WASAPI (Win7 64bit) while using the o/ps from those ports?
Also if I use USB port, what should be the configuration?

OR shall I use the Exclusive mode in Win7 (as somebody had told before). Which one is better?

For the Caiman, it seems the best input mode is the coaxial digital input. Even Stanley Beresford recommends the coaxial input.

If you are using Win 7, using WASAPI (in Foobar) will give best results.

I'm not sure if the setup for WASAPI for the USB input is any different, but I don't think it is. The list of supported devices in Foobar should show "WASAPI: USB device" or something like that once you've got the Caiman plugged in.

 

[vivek.saikia]

ASIO4all
There is one other option. You an use the ASIO4All for Foobar2000. ASIO4all is a universal ASIO driver and should work with all sound hardware. It works in the same manner as ASIO and bypasses windows sound-processing.

To set it up,
(1) Download the asio4all.exe from ASIO4ALL - Universal ASIO Driver and install it.

(2) Get the ASIO component for foobar2000 from foobar2000: Components Repository and copy it into your foobar components directory (in the DRIVELETTER\Program Files\foobar2000\components folder) NOTE: I think you have already done this.

(3) In Foobar2000, go to File > Preferences > Playback > Output. Under "Output" you should see an "ASIO virtual devices" item. Select it. In the RHS pane, click on "Add New". You should see your onboard sound info in the box that pops up. Hit "Ok" to add it to the ASIO virtual devices list.

(4) Go to File > Preferences > Playback > Output. In the In the RHS pane, in the "Device" pulldown, select the "ASIO: ASIO4ALL v2" device.

That's it! You're in the ASIO4all business

(I frankly don't know which is better: ASIO or ASIO4all. I assume ASIO with your sound hardware having the necessary ASIO drivers might be better, but that is just a guess.)

I have just installed ASIO4all, as my onboard sound card was not having built in ASIO drivers. After configuring it with Foobar and selecting ASIO as output, I am able to hear a positive change in the sound. I have done quick comparison by switching between the soundcard driver output and ASIO driver and I am able to hear some differences. The ASIO sound is much more fuller and is sounding quite natural. It's a positive improvement. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[spirovious]

With asio,I have some different settings than default-

Asio buffer - 960 samples
ticked Hardware Buffer (Buffer offset 8ms)
ticked Force WDM Driver to 16bit.