Power Line conditioners
- Thread starter mekr
- Start date
Now the question here: Whether to replace the stock power cord or not and if YES then how much to spend on a new Power cord
This can be looked at in two different angles;
Angle one:
Whether stock power cord is sufficient in terms of Electrical characteristics:
- Current carrying capacity,
- Low resistance (to reduce self heating and losses associated with it)
- Adequate insulation strength and immunity to EMI - RFI
- Termination that is free from corrosion and makes firm contact.
Angle Two:
Whether to spend thousands on some exotic power cord or just get a well made but reasonably priced power cord. (Assuming that existing power cord is lacking any of the electrical characteristic mentioned in Angle One and the replacement is required)
Let us take the angle One first. Angle one is objective. Stock power cord can be examined for Electrical properties. If it is Okay then there is no need to replace as far as Electrical properties are concerned. However my experience is Stock cords are not sufficient enough. So we need to replace it with something better.
One can use a well-made power cord like that of HP printer power cord or power cords made for Medical Equipments. Those are not that expensive and can be had for Rs 300 to Rs 500.
One gets some DIY power cord (from some small operators/ Hobbyist) for about Rs 1000 to Rs 2000.
One can buy those exotic power cord from those big cable makers , costing anything between Rs 5K to RS 25/50K.
Now we have 3 varieties of power cords;
- Rs 300 HP printer cord.
- Rs 1000 DIY / Small Operator made Power cord
- Rs 5000 to RS 25000 Big Brand power cord
All three cords meet Electrical properties needed for my HiFI gear.
Now here Angle two comes into picture.
Angle Two:
- Whether an exotic , expensive power cord bringes any real (and big) difference over a well made but economical HP printer cord?
- Whether my system (and I myself) make out any difference between Rs 500 cord v/s Rs 5000 / 25000 / 50000 power cord?
- Whether the sound improvement (if any) is worth the price difference of Rs 4500 to Rs 24500?
My listening tests showed that there is NO difference between a Rs 300 HP printer cord and Rs 1000 DIY cord and Rs 5000 Big brand cord (I couldn??t get Rs 25000 cord for trials) What so ever small changes I did observe were nothing but a Placebo effect.
Cables and power cords are the biggest mark up value items in any HiFI dealer's inventory. So there is always a tendency to promote such items by making you believe that :
?? Once you spent Rs 200k for this HiFI gear then it must be powered by a Rs 25000 power cord.?
" You won't get the real sound from this Rs 150K system unless and until you put Rs 10K power cord"
Don't eneter into this trap.
So my conclusion here is:
- A well made Rs 300-500 power cord can serve the purpose well as far as electrical properties are concerned. No need to look at s 5000+ power cord in this regards.
- Sonic difference: You better try it yourself and decide.
Hope this helps.
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may be my post came out a bit different what i mean to say is that a servo stabiliser is anyday better than the offline UPS..but the online UPS is far ahead anyday.
I think most of us are making judgement without ever trying a good power cord or power conditioner.
If ONLINE pure sinewave UPS's were good for music than every one would have been using UPS around the world by now as it is readily available.
I agree there is a huge mark up in high end audio specially power cords and plugs and interconnects and speaker cables.. Also a customer doesn't really get a chance to audition and hear the differences specially home auditioning in his system.
This leads us to make generalised assumptions based on electrical properties of cables or based on general assumptions only.
I also used to think the same way before but changed my mind after listening to differences myself.
Now how much one should pay for these cables has to be decided by every indivisual based on his pocket and his system.
There are very good reasonably priced Interconnect and power cables and power cords available but we don't get chance to try and select. and without listening it is very difficult to decide.
If a system is of moderate value say NAD integrated amplifier with a NAD CD player with a bookshelf speaker probably expensive power cords may not make much difference. But surely good Interconnects and speaker cables will make sound much better. I must have tried more than 15 brands of interconnects/speaker cables and if i change one interconnect in my entire chain i can notice the difference. I give lot of importance to all kinds of cables.
As one move up and start upgrading his system he feels real need to upgrade his cables to get best out of his system. There definitely is LOT OF hipe and over pricing no doubt but we certainly cannot ignore benefits of good cables power or system cables and power conditioners. Also it is not necessary that a higher priced cable will sound good for sure. So it is a big RISK unless you hear it yourself.
The main reason of higher price is limited market and emotional blackmail of music lovers. An audiophile will always be looking to improve his system as he is never satisfied and this is what manufacturers are looking at.
Also there are people who are willing to pay these prices in US and europe specially.
Just try to change wall outlet to which your system is connected to Hubbel or PS Audio and I am sure you will notice the change.
If ONLINE pure sinewave UPS's were good for music than every one would have been using UPS around the world by now as it is readily available.
I agree there is a huge mark up in high end audio specially power cords and plugs and interconnects and speaker cables.. Also a customer doesn't really get a chance to audition and hear the differences specially home auditioning in his system.
This leads us to make generalised assumptions based on electrical properties of cables or based on general assumptions only.
I also used to think the same way before but changed my mind after listening to differences myself.
Now how much one should pay for these cables has to be decided by every indivisual based on his pocket and his system.
There are very good reasonably priced Interconnect and power cables and power cords available but we don't get chance to try and select. and without listening it is very difficult to decide.
If a system is of moderate value say NAD integrated amplifier with a NAD CD player with a bookshelf speaker probably expensive power cords may not make much difference. But surely good Interconnects and speaker cables will make sound much better. I must have tried more than 15 brands of interconnects/speaker cables and if i change one interconnect in my entire chain i can notice the difference. I give lot of importance to all kinds of cables.
As one move up and start upgrading his system he feels real need to upgrade his cables to get best out of his system. There definitely is LOT OF hipe and over pricing no doubt but we certainly cannot ignore benefits of good cables power or system cables and power conditioners. Also it is not necessary that a higher priced cable will sound good for sure. So it is a big RISK unless you hear it yourself.
The main reason of higher price is limited market and emotional blackmail of music lovers. An audiophile will always be looking to improve his system as he is never satisfied and this is what manufacturers are looking at.
Also there are people who are willing to pay these prices in US and europe specially.
Just try to change wall outlet to which your system is connected to Hubbel or PS Audio and I am sure you will notice the change.
I started this whole affair,and uptil now member from different places in India have replied,after going through all this i assume that all the members discussing the points are from cities where there is power outages and surges,while in Mumbai,we are having normal stable power supply,with no surges or outages,in this situation i expect members to suggest keeping the stable power input in mind,if i change power cords or add power conditioners,or spike busters or add battery powered supply,will it improve sound as quite a lot of amplifiers use batteries for power line input for clean power supplies.also keep in mind that i have ordered valve amplifier,which consumes lots of power and if yes which make is available in mumbai or india
Thats quite true..and a very important factor
I spent around 2 years in Singapore..power there is very very clean. i actually found a power conditioner to affect the dynamics negatively. in Paris, considering i lived in an apartment complex the Source and the pre sounded better via a conditioner while the amp was better directly plugged
In bangalore..i just cannot use direct power without a conditioner !
i am planning on upgrading my power outlet with a Oyaide very soon and if possible a separate line in from the main transformer to see if it makes a difference.
If not an online UPS might be the only option
But Mekr, from what i could figure out the Audiophile purepower products (http://www.audiophileaps.com/) seem to be very highly rated and are battery driven. the older PS Audio systems used to be basically a Push pull power amplifier utilizing a pure sine as its Pre amp input ..which meant only around 50% efficiency although i hear the new models use a different design. although they still do nt use batterys and are dependend to some extend on input power
But i have been recommended APC smart UPS (what reignofchaos mentioned)as something which is not a classical UPS. it actually Shapes the waveform as well as it was meant for sensitive medical equipment which needs pure power as well.. you should be able to try it out as APC are quite customer friendly..only dont explain too much regarding audio to them as they look quite zapped then
I spent around 2 years in Singapore..power there is very very clean. i actually found a power conditioner to affect the dynamics negatively. in Paris, considering i lived in an apartment complex the Source and the pre sounded better via a conditioner while the amp was better directly plugged
In bangalore..i just cannot use direct power without a conditioner !
i am planning on upgrading my power outlet with a Oyaide very soon and if possible a separate line in from the main transformer to see if it makes a difference.
If not an online UPS might be the only option
But Mekr, from what i could figure out the Audiophile purepower products (http://www.audiophileaps.com/) seem to be very highly rated and are battery driven. the older PS Audio systems used to be basically a Push pull power amplifier utilizing a pure sine as its Pre amp input ..which meant only around 50% efficiency although i hear the new models use a different design. although they still do nt use batterys and are dependend to some extend on input power
But i have been recommended APC smart UPS (what reignofchaos mentioned)as something which is not a classical UPS. it actually Shapes the waveform as well as it was meant for sensitive medical equipment which needs pure power as well.. you should be able to try it out as APC are quite customer friendly..only dont explain too much regarding audio to them as they look quite zapped then
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If I have to believe that power management of such high priced equipment is good enough, I would also believe that the power cables would be top notch!
On another thoughts about "high priced power cable promoting industry" - do they also change internal wiring in my house - because that in some cases could be weakest link. Thinking further in these terms there is no limit!
SKR, only in India do we have a huge difference in demand and supply of electricity, and where the utility companies do not bother about efficient distribution of electricity. I am of course completely leaving out third world countries. I remember in Delhi small scale units used to steal power by just throwing a wire with a hook on the overhead electrical cables. Hopefully such days are gone.
In most advanced countries, reasonably clean power is available 24/365, and for general household usage there is no need for an UPS. Of course UPS and generators are installed for critical application such as a hospital, a computer centers, etc. In these places Audiophiles try to take their products one step ahead of the competition by power regeneration, power cleaning etc.
My point is that in India, there is no guarantee that power will not get disconnected any minute, leave alone clean power. if you connect a multi meter to the mains at 220V, you will see the needle constantly jumping. That is the reason I was looking at an online UPS as against a servo controlled stabiliser. If the UPS provides constant voltage and frequency within tolerable limits and adds a small back up time to boot, why not? They certainly look better that a stabiliser !!!
In any case, over the next few days I plan to visit the offices of Numeric, Krykard, and Vertex to see what their technologists say. Things will be clearer in my mind after that. Of course an UPS has the liability of a battery maintenance. At the same time, modern UPS come with maintenance free batteries that are warrantied for 2 years.
SKR said:
I don't think any of us have any issue with good speaker cables and interconnects. I am sure all of us use good to excellent cables and interconnects. I can certainly subscribe to the statement made by van del Hul when he says his optical cables have special convex spherical lens at both ends that enable more focussing of the light beam. Initially when I installed my system I used cheap cables purchased from local shops. In a short period I replaced all of them with cables and interconnects from AR, Tara Labs, va den Hul, DAC, etc. I am quite happy with the output now. Will I spend more? At least for now, I plan to spend money on room acoustics, that I think will have more value to delivering good sound.
SKR said:
I agree this is an individual choice. But as I have read somewhere, I think we audiophiles, if we may call ourselves that, give a lot of importance to the brands, looks, and specifications of the equipment that we buy. Agreed there is a minimum specs that must be met. Beyond that, it becomes a matter of choice and pride. It is like the old days in school when my father was always stronger than yours. I fuss so much over my system that many days I wonder if I am at all enjoying the music and the movies. My hands have to be washed, the media has to be cleaned, the room has to be vacuumed, etc. Against this, my son just comes in, plonks a DVD, and enjoys himself immensely. Sheeesh!
My wife listens to music on a simple 2-in-1 for an hour or two in the morning, and she just does not care about anything except that the music should play. I was the one who went to umpteen shops, heard umpteen systems, before zeroing in on a 2-in-1 that I felt sounded nice.
Believe me, the max music I hear is in my car's system when I go in for long distance drives. I have a simple JVC system connected to Boston speakers. No sub, no power amplifier, nothing. But for some strange reason, the speakers completely disappear, and the music floats across the car at your ear level. The speaker cables are what came with the car. Maybe If I change the cables, the sound may be better. But my JVC dealer and I agreed that this sound is good enough and not to rip the car apart to change the cables.
I have sat in many cars with hyped up music systems, and always felt like running back to my car and 'cleaning' my ears with a few minutes of nice music.
When we listen to music in a car we readily accept the environmental noise made by the engine and the traffic. But will we accept such a thing in our music and HT rooms? No way.
Let us get down to enjoying our music and movies.
Cheers
awedeophile
Active Member
I think this topic is done with now and getting boring. Believe me, this thread will go on and on and on with no real conclusion. Cable topics are always volatile on all forums as both sides have strong opinions and theories on the subject.
Mekr, If your neighbour uses a light dimmer or appliance with a poorly designed speed controller (hair dryer, etc.) on the same circuit as you, you have EMI and noise in your power. In an apartment in Mumbai, you probably share a power line with many others. Voltage may be constant, quality may not.
I suggest you try and borrow some cables and a power conditioner and try them. If you hear a difference you like, buy them. If not, consider yourself lucky for saving money and spend it on some CD's. There is no other way to know.
Mekr, If your neighbour uses a light dimmer or appliance with a poorly designed speed controller (hair dryer, etc.) on the same circuit as you, you have EMI and noise in your power. In an apartment in Mumbai, you probably share a power line with many others. Voltage may be constant, quality may not.
I suggest you try and borrow some cables and a power conditioner and try them. If you hear a difference you like, buy them. If not, consider yourself lucky for saving money and spend it on some CD's. There is no other way to know.
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Powercords and power conditioners definitely make a difference. Each cable and conditioner brings its own character. I have owned the Shunyata Hydra 8, the Powerwing and currently i use the RSA Haley. They definitely bring improvements. A much quieter background is what you immediately get. The cd player and the preamp benefit the most. I have not had a great experience using conditioners for tube amps. However SS amps benefit. This has been my experience.
Prem,i still cannot forget that evening i spent at your place and now i am also thinking of going for Rethm,s,but for amplifiers actually i had shortlisted like Komuro,Shindo and New Audio frontiers but due to some constraints i was holding on to new purchase,a friend of mine in netherlands bought leben CS600 and some other people have recommended it,so for time being i am going for leben 600 for which i have got quotes yestreday and in the next 15 days i may probably get it.
You are right. you might need a seperate circuit to avoid other devices in your house affecting your hifi. I have already wired a dedicated circuit with no other devices connected, but just the hifi.
I think some of us should think outside of the hifi world. I see that most sensitive industrial equipments are provided with clean power from conditioners or the like. I dont think the industry people are obsessed with power and power cables. They just need thier equipments to work as it should. I own a petrol pump and i can see 3 devices (one is a normal stabliser, another one a big servo, god alone knows what is the third one) in a series that provide power to one of the dispensing pumps. The oil company technician told me its needed for the pump to dispense accurately and its not to protect the Rs.25 lakh of equipment. So i believe it depends how sensitive the application is. And in this case how sensitive an equipment is your hifi to you.
Whether it is Mumbai ,delhi or a smaller town, power supply is never perfect.
It is not only power cuts or voltage fluctuations that we need to take care.
Awedeophile has correctly said that power gets corrupted because of hair dryers,comtuters,television sets and other home appliances that we use.
Also we do not know what our neighbours are using and how much they are polluting the power.
Unless we have a direct line from the transformer in our street corner to our home and a direct dedicated line from our circuitbreaker to music system,we cannot be sure of good power. Also there is problem of GROUND LOOP.
In cities where most people live in apartments it is just not possible to get perfect good clean power because same line is being used by so many flat owners of the building and we are getting dirty power which needs to be cleaned.
This is the main reason to use power conditioners and power cords. If it was just stabilising power and power cuts than UPS or stabilisers would serve the purpose.
I agree with arj and prem that Power amplifiers some times get dynamically suppressed using SOME power conditioners. But it definitely helps other equipment. To start with one can just change power outlet and use some power cords from Kimber PK-10 & PK-14 (DIY) or make own cord USING BELDEN brand power cord which is very cheap and use cheaper wattgate hospital grade plugs and see if it makes difference before spending money on power conditioners.
It is not only power cuts or voltage fluctuations that we need to take care.
Awedeophile has correctly said that power gets corrupted because of hair dryers,comtuters,television sets and other home appliances that we use.
Also we do not know what our neighbours are using and how much they are polluting the power.
Unless we have a direct line from the transformer in our street corner to our home and a direct dedicated line from our circuitbreaker to music system,we cannot be sure of good power. Also there is problem of GROUND LOOP.
In cities where most people live in apartments it is just not possible to get perfect good clean power because same line is being used by so many flat owners of the building and we are getting dirty power which needs to be cleaned.
This is the main reason to use power conditioners and power cords. If it was just stabilising power and power cuts than UPS or stabilisers would serve the purpose.
I agree with arj and prem that Power amplifiers some times get dynamically suppressed using SOME power conditioners. But it definitely helps other equipment. To start with one can just change power outlet and use some power cords from Kimber PK-10 & PK-14 (DIY) or make own cord USING BELDEN brand power cord which is very cheap and use cheaper wattgate hospital grade plugs and see if it makes difference before spending money on power conditioners.
psychotropic
Well-Known Member
I don't know how many of you have seen this. Please click on this link and read the article in this called "the ten biggest lies." One of the things that Peter Aczel says is that the impact of power conditionser is mostly hype/placebo. I am not qualified to agree or disagree with him, but this guy is quite a dude, and I would give some weight to what he says:
Click here to download the PDF http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf
Click here to download the PDF http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf
unleash_me
Well-Known Member
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awedeophile
Active Member
You don't have to post this on every thread! This is a very old article and everyone's probably read it.
Follow his lead, buy a 2 in 1 and live happy!
For all the members following this thread,i have been to PSaudio site and was studying their cords and generaters and filters which have got rave reviews and at very decent price
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